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RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/5/2009 12:24:18 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

Wow, I really have trouble understanding why resistance within a D/s relationship is such a hard thing for people to grasp.

Again, I ask, "How do you get to consent?" I sincerely doubt that both of you at the beginning had the exact same ideas about everything that the two of you would do, the same preferences for each possible activity, the same desires on everything. Wasn't there anything at all that you wanted from him that he wasn't too thrilled about, and was even the tiniest bit reluctant, and you had to coax him in some way, use your influence to encourage his acceptance of it?

You write as though there's nothing at all in between complete, utter submission, and the total refusal to submit. Resistance exists everywhere in between the two extremes, and dominance attempts to overcome that resistance. And it is overcome in many ways, not just through force. Consensuality and resistance are NOT mutually exclusive.

It seems to me that perhaps you're hung up on semantics, which seems evidenced by the following quote:
quote:

If you don't both consent you are not doing BDSM. PERIOD.


I think that really misses the mark, because I don't think the term BDSM is confined only to the responsible practice thereof any more than any other activity. The fact that it SHOULD be consensual doesn't mean that sadism/masochism ALWAYS IS consensual, nor is bondage & discipline ALWAYS practiced in this way. That's like saying if hunting isn't done legally, it's not hunting, or driving without a license isn't really driving, or having sex with an underage person isn't sex, because it's illegal and morally reprehensible.


I lose interest very quickly if a man just begs me to do all these things to him and I am merely a prop in the entire scenario.  I also lose interest quickly if a man thinks being a pain in the ass is "cute" and just purposely resists everything in order to make me meaner - or so he thinks.  But as you point out, there's a LOT in between. 

While I have no desire to take a man and make him do things he truly does NOT want to do, my "sweet spot" of power exchange is when a man submits to something he'd REALLY RATHER NOT DO, except that seeing me turned on by it is worth it to him.  Another variation on this idea is a man who finds the idea of doing some things really hot and exciting but he can't just do them, he has to really be in the right kind of vulnerable state of mind to do them.  Or he has kind of a love/hate thing going on.  Some femdoms really adore men who love pain and are just very into it all - I think that's ok, sometimes.  But my preference is and always will be for men who have some challenges when it comes to submission. It isn't that they don't want to. It's that it isn't always *easy.*  I like submission as a *process*, not a state of mind.

Before I knew what the "bdsm scene" was or what submissive guys were, I got my femdom urges met by seducing vanilla guys.  I did not FORCE any of them to do things against their will.  I seduced them a little at a time and took their resistance down slowly.  It's not resistance, as in "I will never do that," it's resistance as in, "That doesn't sound very enjoyable, why do you want me to do that again?" and then it turns into, "Holy crap, that turns you on SO much -hell yeah, it's worth it; I don't really LIKE it, but damn, it's worth it!" and then it eventually becomes, "As much as I don't like that act, I really get turned on doing it, because YOU get turned on doing it...." 

I have had the best success my desire for power exchange to be the need to see "authentic vulnerability" in my man.  I want him to feel uncomfortable, naked, nervous, vulnerable, conflicted - but WILLINGLY.   On the other end of this spectrum are men who just want me to x, y and z and they are gung ho and lapping it up like a dog; in some cases I can find some enjoyment out of this, especially if I can help the sub to understand that at the core, I'm a bit of a sadist, so I need to see a little more of the side of him that's got some trepidation, not the side of him that's just hugely turned on. I know both sides are at work.

The absolute WORST though is a sub who is purposely difficult or pretends to be resisting when I can see right through it. It makes my skin crawl.  I generally cannot get my head around making that work.  That feels too much like manipulation.

Akasha


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(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/5/2009 6:31:05 PM   
subtex


Posts: 129
Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

quote:

Given we are talking about consensual relationships I don't see how resistance beyond the fun level of play or wanting to be helped to get to different degrees of control or authority is part of BDSM.

Without that consent, we are not doing BDSM at all we are simply doing what human beings have done for thousands of years: manipulating or forcing others to comply with our withes.


The fact that it's consensual doesn't mean that there's no manipulation, or that there's no resistance. We're always manipulating to some degree or another, whether we realize it or not. How do you get to consent? Do you assume that the sub consents 100% to everything from the get-go? Or is it a moving target, consenting to some things, not to others, and potentially expanding to more things as you move along?

This idea that consensuality precludes any resistance or reluctance is simply ridiculous to me.



Really?

Sorry, I only deal with adults who consent to our relationship. Anything else in my opinion is immoral and a quite possibly a crime.

If you don't both consent you are not doing BDSM. PERIOD.

Is it easy? No, of course not, but just because it may be difficult to learn to obey or learn to command does not equal resistance.

*snip*

Resistance, I think, comes when you are being forced or someone is attempting to force you to do something you don't honestly want to do.

Why be in a BDSM relationship if you really don't want to be? Why be in one with that particular person if you really don't want to be? The very idea makes no sense to my mind when we are discussing consensual relationships.



I think this may be a case where we are arguing about the meaning of the words while probably having similar view about relationships.

I don't think resistance comes when you are being forced.  If you are ordered to do something and it's outside your limits you refuse and the Dominant respects that because you are both in a consensual relationship.  If you are ordered to do something and it's on that fuzzy border of your limits maybe you'll do it and maybe you won't, then you resist.  You express this, the Dominant pushes and you resist.  You both understand it's consensual but neither the sub nor the Dominant knows if this is a limit you can stretch until it's played out.  That's something I think can be termed resistance and still fit into a healthy D/s relationship.

Sometimes though, some people resist submitting to another in general and that is a whole other thing which could raise questions about consentuality.  There's other stuff people do that givethe word resistance a stigma, like acting out to provoke punishment and playing other head games.   Maybe that's ok, who am I to tell other people how to conduct their relationship?.  It seems to me though that there is a better chance of a sucessful reationship if both people are on the same team.  Differences can even be a healthy thing in teamwork which may take people in directions neither would have gone alone. 

Bill


(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/6/2009 6:43:39 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

Wow, I really have trouble understanding why resistance within a D/s relationship is such a hard thing for people to grasp.

Again, I ask, "How do you get to consent?" I sincerely doubt that both of you at the beginning had the exact same ideas about everything that the two of you would do, the same preferences for each possible activity, the same desires on everything. Wasn't there anything at all that you wanted from him that he wasn't too thrilled about, and was even the tiniest bit reluctant, and you had to coax him in some way, use your influence to encourage his acceptance of it?

You write as though there's nothing at all in between complete, utter submission, and the total refusal to submit. Resistance exists everywhere in between the two extremes, and dominance attempts to overcome that resistance. And it is overcome in many ways, not just through force. Consensuality and resistance are NOT mutually exclusive.

It seems to me that perhaps you're hung up on semantics, which seems evidenced by the following quote:
quote:

If you don't both consent you are not doing BDSM. PERIOD.


I think that really misses the mark, because I don't think the term BDSM is confined only to the responsible practice thereof any more than any other activity. The fact that it SHOULD be consensual doesn't mean that sadism/masochism ALWAYS IS consensual, nor is bondage & discipline ALWAYS practiced in this way. That's like saying if hunting isn't done legally, it's not hunting, or driving without a license isn't really driving, or having sex with an underage person isn't sex, because it's illegal and morally reprehensible.


You may call whatever activities you wish BDSM but if it isn't consensual I will never define it or defend it as BDSM. The only thing that separates what we do from torture, rape, assault and other acts is CONSENT from everyone directly involved.

I'd go further and say it has to be informed consented which simply means you have an idea, a realistic idea, of the potential risks and feel the potential benefits outweigh them.

As for "utter submission", did you read my post?

I never said that things are easy, they aren't easy in a Ds or M/s dynamic (anyone claiming that is a liar) but you don't resist that difficulty you work with it.

Just because something is hard doesn't mean you resist it, not if it is something you want or feel you need. You are not forced (which is what is required to overcome resistance) but you are helped to deal with those difficulties.

Yeah, we are working on semantics because words are all we have on this sort of venue.


< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 2/6/2009 6:45:33 AM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/6/2009 7:00:40 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		I think this may be a case where we are arguing about the meaning of the words while probably having similar view about relationships.

I don't think resistance comes when you are being forced.  If you are ordered to do something and it's outside your limits you refuse and the Dominant respects that because you are both in a consensual relationship.  If you are ordered to do something and it's on that fuzzy border of your limits maybe you'll do it and maybe you won't, then you resist.  You express this, the Dominant pushes and you resist.  You both understand it's consensual but neither the sub nor the Dominant knows if this is a limit you can stretch until it's played out.  That's something I think can be termed resistance and still fit into a healthy D/s relationship.

Sometimes though, some people resist submitting to another in general and that is a whole other thing which could raise questions about consentuality.  There's other stuff people do that givethe word resistance a stigma, like acting out to provoke punishment and playing other head games.   Maybe that's ok, who am I to tell other people how to conduct their relationship?.  It seems to me though that there is a better chance of a sucessful reationship if both people are on the same team.  Differences can even be a healthy thing in teamwork which may take people in directions neither would have gone alone. 
 
Well done, Bill.  I couldn't have expressed that better myself (and believe me, it's rare for me to say that!).  I've been reading this thread with growing discomfort - not being able entirely to grasp HBS's position while at the same time reading some of the dominants' views and thinking "whoa - that's too extreme for me".  I can't help feeling that there are some nasty little semantic knots that need unravelling in this thread, too.



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(in reply to subtex)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/6/2009 8:52:44 AM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

You may call whatever activities you wish BDSM but if it isn't consensual I will never define it or defend it as BDSM. The only thing that separates what we do from torture, rape, assault and other acts is CONSENT from everyone directly involved.

I'd go further and say it has to be informed consented which simply means you have an idea, a realistic idea, of the potential risks and feel the potential benefits outweigh them.


Then we will disagree on the definition of the term until we die. Sadism is included in BDSM, and torture can be sadistic. You define BDSM as only the acceptable practices thereof, the "good" WIITWD; I've made my view on this pretty clear.

quote:

As for "utter submission", did you read my post?


Yes, I did. However, your dogged assertion that resistance is incompatible with a D/s relationship seems incongruous with the concept of working things out in a relationship.

quote:

I never said that things are easy, they aren't easy in a Ds or M/s dynamic (anyone claiming that is a liar) but you don't resist that difficulty you work with it.


That "difficulty" IS resistance. You find ways to overcome it.

quote:

Just because something is hard doesn't mean you resist it, not if it is something you want or feel you need. You are not forced (which is what is required to overcome resistance) but you are helped to deal with those difficulties.


The statement in red is just about as wrong as you can get. There are many, many ways to overcome resistance without force, and I've already talked about some of them. Ever hear of persuasion? Seduction? Negotiation? They are all methods of overcoming resistance. Leaders and managers do it all the time, and so do people in vanilla relationships as well as people in D/s relationships.

You define resistance in absolute terms, as total refusal and disobedience. I don't see it that way. That's semantics. But this goes beyond semantics. Even if I accepted your definition of resistance, force is NOT the only way to overcome it.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/6/2009 8:53:47 AM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I think this may be a case where we are arguing about the meaning of the words while probably having similar view about relationships.

I don't think resistance comes when you are being forced.  If you are ordered to do something and it's outside your limits you refuse and the Dominant respects that because you are both in a consensual relationship.  If you are ordered to do something and it's on that fuzzy border of your limits maybe you'll do it and maybe you won't, then you resist.  You express this, the Dominant pushes and you resist.  You both understand it's consensual but neither the sub nor the Dominant knows if this is a limit you can stretch until it's played out.  That's something I think can be termed resistance and still fit into a healthy D/s relationship.

Sometimes though, some people resist submitting to another in general and that is a whole other thing which could raise questions about consentuality.  There's other stuff people do that givethe word resistance a stigma, like acting out to provoke punishment and playing other head games.   Maybe that's ok, who am I to tell other people how to conduct their relationship?.  It seems to me though that there is a better chance of a sucessful reationship if both people are on the same team.  Differences can even be a healthy thing in teamwork which may take people in directions neither would have gone alone. 
 
Well done, Bill.  I couldn't have expressed that better myself (and believe me, it's rare for me to say that!).  I've been reading this thread with growing discomfort - not being able entirely to grasp HBS's position while at the same time reading some of the dominants' views and thinking "whoa - that's too extreme for me".  I can't help feeling that there are some nasty little semantic knots that need unravelling in this thread, too.




At least somebody gets it.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/6/2009 9:25:54 AM   
MistressDolly


Posts: 917
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: giovani324

Did not mean to stereotype submissives as a whole, perhaps I used a poor choice of words.  Maybe resistance would be better ... like in the sense that the hunt is more enjoyable when the prey puts up a little bit of a fight?  I don't know, was just throwing it out there.


I enjoy being served by males who enjoy serving. Males wanting to be hunted down and won or overcome into "submission" do not interest me. I feel a Top would enjoy that sort of play, however - - seeing that Tops typically cater to the Bottom's desires.


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(in reply to giovani324)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/6/2009 12:25:29 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

quote:

You may call whatever activities you wish BDSM but if it isn't consensual I will never define it or defend it as BDSM. The only thing that separates what we do from torture, rape, assault and other acts is CONSENT from everyone directly involved.

I'd go further and say it has to be informed consented which simply means you have an idea, a realistic idea, of the potential risks and feel the potential benefits outweigh them.


Then we will disagree on the definition of the term until we die. Sadism is included in BDSM, and torture can be sadistic. You define BDSM as only the acceptable practices thereof, the "good" WIITWD; I've made my view on this pretty clear.



Like I said if you want to define all sorts of illegal and immoral activities as part of BDSM you are free to do so but I will never defend your definition then nor will I consider us part of the same community.

If you knew the history of BDSM and the terms used it in you would understand more of what I'm saying but you aren't my student and I'm not being paid to teach you.

I just find this very idea that BDSM includes basically anything and can involve any type of force and resistance so offensive that I won't comment further on anything you say in this thread.


_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to hardbodysub)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Any Mistress's like subs with a little will power l... - 2/6/2009 1:14:03 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Like I said if you want to define all sorts of illegal and immoral activities as part of BDSM you are free to do so but I will never defend your definition then nor will I consider us part of the same community.


That's the problem. You're talking about the "community". I'm talking about the definitions of the words. Like I said, we'll disagree until we die, but it's purely semantics.

quote:

If you knew the history of BDSM and the terms used it in you would understand more of what I'm saying but you aren't my student and I'm not being paid to teach you.


This is pretty presumptuous of you. I do know the history, and you've got nothing to teach me.

quote:

I just find this very idea that BDSM includes basically anything and can involve any type of force and resistance so offensive ...


That's clear, and it's obviously because you view BDSM as the lifestyle, the community, and I'm talking about the terminology. I don't disagree at all with you about the lifestyle and the community. I disagree with you about the term "BDSM" representing only that community, and not all the words that it contains.

quote:

... that I won't comment further on anything you say in this thread.


Good. Me neither. We're only repeating ourselves at this point, anyway.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 69
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