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Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which took a... - 2/6/2009 4:45:20 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

Why nobody paying taxes should support the pork barrel of spending falsely labeled 'economic stimulus'.

quote:

U.S. Rep. David Obey (D-WI), the chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, helped write the bill and says he doesn't like being asked about earmarks.
"We simply made a decision, which took about three seconds, not to have earmarks in the bill," he says. "And with all due respect, that's the least important question facing us on putting together this package."
David Walker, a former U.S. comptroller general, the bill appears to have no mechanism for directing spending.

From that 'right wing' source-NPR: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100304449

Admitting it "took about three seconds"; admitting there is waste and pork, admitting to us, there is no plan other than spending tax money.

Doesn't anyone else find that last statement incredible. Let's spend a Trillion dollars but lets not have any plan for how to direct the spending.

An 'experts' alternative view:

quote:

CBO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing.
Source: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/04/cbo-obama-stimulus-harmful-over-long-haul/

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 2/6/2009 4:47:14 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 4:50:30 PM

rexrgisformidoni

Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline

Oh joy. I'm super excited by all this.

_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 2

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 5:31:17 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

Define pork.

What`s your alternative plan to turn things around,Merc?

Specifics.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to rexrgisformidoni)

Post #: 3

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 6:10:51 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Define pork.
What`s your alternative plan to turn things around,Merc?
Specifics.

Same as its been since the beginning. Cut government employment and every department budget 10% across the board. Trash this Trillion dollar pork package. Let the failures - fail and get out of the way of successful, 'GREEDY' people willing to invest in the future; instead of sending money to create a country where everyone left, fails equally.

How about a reply to this question? What IS the 'plan'?

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 4

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 7:12:09 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

The bill does make it possible for lawmakers and the public to track the money — but only after it's spent. And that, he says, will lead to bad surprises.
Take, for example, the giant bank bailout known as TARP. That spending has gone all wrong, Walker says. Though the inspector general and the Government Accountability Office are keeping track of the billions spent there, "they're basically reporting on what didn't happen," he says.
"Well, it's a little bit late," he says. "And so the question is, what are you going to do on a prospective basis? I mean, you can't change history. What are you going to do on a prospective basis to minimize the possibility of being disappointed again?"

Jesus christ. They apparently did not learn a fucking thing. Not one fucking thing. 350 billion dollars pissed right down a hole in the ground already, and these stupid sonsabitches are lined up at the same fucking hole again and trying to remember how their zippers work. They're going to fuck this up, and we'll be paying for it the rest of our lives. I don't know who I'm more disgusted with; the democrats for doing something this fucking idiotic, or the republicans for not having the balls to filibuster the damned thing.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 5

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 7:31:12 PM

TheUtopian

Posts: 259
Status: offline

As someone who is generally supportive of '' new deal '' type stimulus during catastrophic economic times, I won't be happy with any proposal unless it includes infrastructure creation reminiscent of the ''Tennessee Valley Authority.''

I'd like to see the creation of a high-speed, coast-to-coast Mag-Lev rail system. A project of this nature would put so many folks back to work, and benefit all sectors of the economy for years to come. And then after it was completed, we'd continue to see great benefits from increased productivity throughout the workforce.

The current plan is the equivalent of a stale box of ''Milk Bone'' dog biscuits being tossed into a chain-link kennel full of mangy, undernourished dogs.

Sumpin' aint always better den nothen'

- R

< Message edited by TheUtopian -- 2/6/2009 7:33:13 PM >

_____________________________

Vae Victus! - Woe to the conquered....

My tears are the cure for cancer - I sweat testosterone, bleed black, and piss excellence.

(in reply to rexrgisformidoni)

Post #: 6

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 7:51:33 PM

SteelofUtah

Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline

Please excuse this but I feel this needs to be said......

If this Pisses you off then Get as MANY PEOPLE AS YOU KNOW to call your Senator, your State Reps, Hell even the Mayor EVERY GOD DAMNED DAY and STAY ON THEIR ASSES!!!

Write a Letter each and every day or at very least once a week. Stop Pissing and Moaning about how fucked up it is and TELL YOUR COUNTRY THEY ARE SCREWING UP YOUR FUTURE.

Because at the end of the day they still have 100,000 dollar a year salaries and you're paying for it and so they should be working for you not against you.

If Every Rep got 2000 letters a week telling them if they don't work their asses off to fix this bull shit you may all come down to string their asses up maybe they might stop listening to all the Hub-Bub and start listening to the people they REALLY WORK FOR and that YOU the american People.

Steel

_____________________________

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Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
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(in reply to TheUtopian)

Post #: 7

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 7:58:34 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

Hold on Panda, remember the last eight years. But I do agree there is plenty of blame to go around.

The main problem is that the theft has already occurred. We are going to be so fucked that the light from fucked will take twelve minutes to reach us.

The OP may be right, let the failures fail. We might be better off in the long run, send them to the unemployment line. I am lucky to work in a business that is perhaps one of the most recession proof around. But even that is not airtight. I'm looking for a bumpy ride no matter what "they" do.

So our future is worth three seconds ? Cool, that's about how long they deserve when the polls open back up and they go through the dog and pony show, err the show, err the elections.

Really, I would vote for a coconut over most of these people. Even though we disagree about a few substantial points, I would certainly vote for Merc. At least he seems to understand the problem a hell of alot better than the PTB. Hell even I seem to understand the problem better than the PTB.

Either that or there is a conspir,,,,, err wait, a cooperation. All on the up and up of course, but a cooperation to make more money. To engage in activities jointly for personal gain at the expense of others. But it is all perfectly legal and above board.

Yuppers, don't listen to those crackpots. This whole situation was caused by people making innocent mistakes of course. Reading something into it, and for example FOLLOWING THE MONEY is dead wrong. Nothing could be wronger, ask any of them.

T

T

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

Post #: 8

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 8:22:11 PM

rexrgisformidoni

Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline

the "pork" includes shit like a dog park. or a museum of gangsters in vegas. hell, even here in LR a new entrance ramp for the BDB. I can support spending money on USEFUL things, like roads, sewer, water, school buildings, rail, etc. this bullshit is a "shovel ready jobs" thing, jobs that will come and go in a matter of years, not something long term that employs people who will pay taxes in the long term, not just over a 2 or 3 year period while they build dog parks and other asisine things. thats fucking pork.

_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 9

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 8:26:18 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Define pork.
What`s your alternative plan to turn things around,Merc?
Specifics.

Same as its been since the beginning. Cut government employment and every department budget 10% across the board. Trash this Trillion dollar pork package. Let the failures - fail and get out of the way of successful, 'GREEDY' people willing to invest in the future; instead of sending money to create a country where everyone left, fails equally.

How about a reply to this question? What IS the 'plan'?

Commercial credit markets frozen,record business closure,soaring unemployment and home foreclosures at depression era levels,lower housing starts and depreciated home values have nothing to do w/ government spending.

What are your plans to turn all that around?What are your plans to address the economic/employment/foreclosure crisis?

You didn`t address my question or the topic,Merc.

Has your guy bush`s destruction of capitalism, still got you punchy?

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 10

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 8:33:22 PM

SteelofUtah

Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline

Owner so because a Man who presented a Valid Problem cannot speculate a way to fix the problem you will ignore the fast that there currently isn't a plan to fix the problem?

Are you Serious?

As Long as it isn't Bush is all you care about huh? That's sad. This isn't about One guy over another anymore it's about a Nation that is more interested in pulling cheap shots at the other side than looking at the fact that we are all on the Same Country Together. Sinking the Ship Serves NO ONE.

Steel

ETA: And he DID answer your question he said Let what is GOING to Fail FAIL and let the Companies that are willing to change with the market to be successful show themselves. Throwing Money isn't working and that is obvious.

< Message edited by SteelofUtah -- 2/6/2009 8:35:21 PM >

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 11

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 8:36:57 PM

hermione83

Posts: 393
Joined: 8/1/2007
Status: offline

How bout we start a national spending week website instead of this.. everyone's savings in this country is INCREASING and money markets, the stock market, savings account, etc interest rates continues to plummet.. so go out, buy a car, buy a house, invest some semi-risky money, go on vacay, have some dinners, tip your facialist/massage therapist/waitress well, buy some furniture, whatever, go.. stimulate the economy....! =)

(in reply to rexrgisformidoni)

Post #: 12

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 9:40:56 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

As someone who is generally supportive of '' new deal '' type stimulus during catastrophic economic times, I won't be happy with any proposal unless it includes infrastructure creation reminiscent of the ''Tennessee Valley Authority.''

I'd like to see the creation of a high-speed, coast-to-coast Mag-Lev rail system. A project of this nature would put so many folks back to work, and benefit all sectors of the economy for years to come. And then after it was completed, we'd continue to see great benefits from increased productivity throughout the workforce.

The current plan is the equivalent of a stale box of ''Milk Bone'' dog biscuits being tossed into a chain-link kennel full of mangy, undernourished dogs.

Sumpin' aint always better den nothen'

Agreed 100%, every word. This is horrible. I said a few weeks ago, they've got just one chance to get this right, and it's clear as rainwater they've blown it. I have decidedly mixed feelings about the bailout to begin with, but finally decided a couple of months ago that I could live with it as long as it was limited in scope, focused heavily toward necessary infrastructure projects, and designed with prudent oversights to ensure the money was being distributed and applied properly. This piece of crap is none of those things. I disagree with Merc's position that no bailout is inherently better than any bailout at all, but I do agree that a bad bailout is worse than no bailout. And a bad bailout is what we've been given.

It took Bush 8 years to totally alienate the American electorate to the point where many of them will never vote republican again in their lifetimes, and I fear it's taken the democrats just 3 weeks to accomplish the same feat. I think I'm more discouraged about my country and its future tonight than I have ever been in my entire life.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 2/6/2009 9:41:25 PM >

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to TheUtopian)

Post #: 13

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 9:57:17 PM

awmslave

Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline

There is a proverb that says a fish starts rotting from the head. US government is operating in alternate universe.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 14

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 10:00:24 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hermione83

How bout we start a national spending week website instead of this.. everyone's savings in this country is INCREASING and money markets, the stock market, savings account, etc interest rates continues to plummet.. so go out, buy a car, buy a house, invest some semi-risky money, go on vacay, have some dinners, tip your facialist/massage therapist/waitress well, buy some furniture, whatever, go.. stimulate the economy....! =)

Actually, that's exactly what I'm doing. Well, to an extent, anyway. I'm in the process of moving almost all of my money out of the stock market, probably permanently, and into other investments. Selling into the rallies and transferring the money into a savings account. I think I'm done with the stock market once and for all. But the rest of it, yeah - I'm down with it. I'm on a 3-week vacation in California right now, eating out every day, tipping larger than usual - had a 10 dollar lunch today at a wonderful little Mexican restaurant in Santa Monica, and tipped 5 bucks. I'm spreading my money around more freely than I ever have before, and while part of that is because I'm getting such good bargains for everything I buy, the other part of it is that I am making a conscious and deliberate decision to do my part and help circulate some money in the economy.

I know my little contributions are just a drop in the bucket, but every little bit helps. That waitress who picked up a 5 dollar tip on a 10 dollar tab will definitely find something to spend the extra 2 or 3 bucks on, and the people who own the half-empty hotel I'm staying in will pay their whole months electricity bill on what I'm paying them for this fabulous room I'm renting from them. It won't prevent the depression, but it makes a small difference to one business owner, and makes me feel like I'm doing something worthwhile to help out.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to hermione83)

Post #: 15

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 10:04:39 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Please excuse this but I feel this needs to be said......

If this Pisses you off then Get as MANY PEOPLE AS YOU KNOW to call your Senator, your State Reps, Hell even the Mayor EVERY GOD DAMNED DAY and STAY ON THEIR ASSES!!!

Write a Letter each and every day or at very least once a week. Stop Pissing and Moaning about how fucked up it is and TELL YOUR COUNTRY THEY ARE SCREWING UP YOUR FUTURE.

Because at the end of the day they still have 100,000 dollar a year salaries and you're paying for it and so they should be working for you not against you.

If Every Rep got 2000 letters a week telling them if they don't work their asses off to fix this bull shit you may all come down to string their asses up maybe they might stop listening to all the Hub-Bub and start listening to the people they REALLY WORK FOR and that YOU the american People.

Steel

This was done during the first bailout(calling, writing), which at the time it was reported that well over 70 percent of the public was against it, and they were flooded with calls, e-mails, etc.. I actually contacted several myself. They ignored it, they will ignore it again.

Now, we have another president that thought the original plan was good enough to vote for(New boss same as the old boss), and he seems to think more of it is needed. Anyway, it's useless at this point the sackless politicians this country puts into office are convinced that this is the path, who cares, if we already have an example of the waste caused by poorly thought out trillion dollar spending packages produces.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 16

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 10:08:16 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

As someone who is generally supportive of '' new deal '' type stimulus during catastrophic economic times, I won't be happy with any proposal unless it includes infrastructure creation reminiscent of the ''Tennessee Valley Authority.''

I'd like to see the creation of a high-speed, coast-to-coast Mag-Lev rail system. A project of this nature would put so many folks back to work, and benefit all sectors of the economy for years to come. And then after it was completed, we'd continue to see great benefits from increased productivity throughout the workforce.

The current plan is the equivalent of a stale box of ''Milk Bone'' dog biscuits being tossed into a chain-link kennel full of mangy, undernourished dogs.

The problem with a lot of the infrastructure that is being talked about is that it doesn't do anything new for the economy. Building all the new "green" power, building all the infrastructure to carry the juice, costs a fortune and at the end of it, we have nothing that wasn't there before. Light when we flip the switch. What new horizons are opened? What new industries will come in the wake?

IF we are going to do this, we need to go big, bold and new. Maglev is good. New freeways are nice. A brand spanking new, standardized, high speed satellite data link to every house in the country could change the face of how the country works.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to TheUtopian)

Post #: 17

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 10:19:17 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Hold on Panda, remember the last eight years. But I do agree there is plenty of blame to go around.

Sure, the Bushers are the ones to blame for letting this all blow up in our faces, but the dems had a chance to fix it - at least, to a small degree. So even though i blame the republicans for causing the problem in the first place, I blame the democrats for making it worse- which is exactly what they have done. In fact, in some ways, their blame is worse, because by the time their turn at bat came, they should have known better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
The main problem is that the theft has already occurred. We are going to be so fucked that the light from fucked will take twelve minutes to reach us.

The OP may be right, let the failures fail. We might be better off in the long run, send them to the unemployment line. I am lucky to work in a business that is perhaps one of the most recession proof around. But even that is not airtight. I'm looking for a bumpy ride no matter what "they" do.

Surprising as it may seem, as liberal as i am, I probably agree with Merc more often than I disagree with him. And one of the subjects in which I am typically in almost complete agreement with him is the area of fiscal responsibility. One area where he and I part company here is the issue of whether a bailout is appropriate at all - he thinks it is not, whereas although that was a position I shared in September, over the last couple of months I've changed my mind to the point where I think a sufficiently persuasive argument can be made to justify it. But if this bailout is the best they can do, I join with Merc once again and would prefer no bailout at all. If we're going to wind up fucked, let's just let ourselves get fucked instead of ensuring that we're FUCKED for generations to come.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 18

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 10:30:15 PM

awmslave

Posts: 599
Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline

This "stimulus "package" should be analyzed from different point of view. It shows how Washington operates and the extent of the disconnect with reality and with electorate they are supposedly serving. Somebody who knows Washington well can probably extract lot of information from the bill. Who among Congressmen has more influence. The scary part is that there is very little discussion about how the projects exactly will be financed. Do they simply print money devaluing currency or do they hope somebody will buy this much US Treasury bonds? The last is doubtful.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 19

RE: Stimulus: "We simply made a decision, which to... - 2/6/2009 10:34:42 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The problem with a lot of the infrastructure that is being talked about is that it doesn't do anything new for the economy. Building all the new "green" power, building all the infrastructure to carry the juice, costs a fortune and at the end of it, we have nothing that wasn't there before. Light when we flip the switch. What new horizons are opened? What new industries will come in the wake?

You've got a good point, but the counterargument I would make is that these are things we're going to need to do anyway to move forward into the 21st Century, so we might as well use some of the stimulus program to put people to work building them now. But...

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
IF we are going to do this, we need to go big, bold and new. Maglev is good. New freeways are nice. A brand spanking new, standardized, high speed satellite data link to every house in the country could change the face of how the country works.

I agree with this point, but would also argue that alternative energies are quite likely going to be what drives the next global economic bubble. The nation or nations who seize the leadership on that issue will be the nations who ride the top of that bubble, and the nations who choose not to participate will be their customers. We've got a golden opportunity to take that leadership role, and in many ways, the timing for that could not be better. We've got the intellectual and the technological resources to lead the way, we've got money to spend, and the entire country is desperate for some sort of worthy, credible national initiative to rally around right now. This could be that common purpose, and if we decide we don't want it, I guarantee you the Indians or the Chinese will be quite happy to take it on for us.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 20

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