RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (Full Version)

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Tavane -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 7:34:03 AM)

Reigna: I think that many service subs don't require any more reciprocity than being a service sub, or at least I loved it with a female friend who would let me be her slave periodically. She wasn't attracted to me, but we were very good friends. She was beautiful, and attracted to very masculine men (who inevitably treated her poorly), so sex was out, but servinjg "was" sex to me, but without an orgasm, and it was constant and incredible pleasure. I was the one who was getting by far the most pleasure and happiness from the relationship, despite that she was getting manicures, pedicures, her laundry done, and foot massages which could have lasted as long as she wanted them to. Not many people can have constant and incredible "sex', but a service sub can.

Isillogysm: I agree that many Female Led Relationships can start out as vanilla ones, but do think that most of the time a female won't be interested in it, and will only do it to please the male, because of her affection for him, and wishes it wssn't a part of the relationship. We can only speculate on numbers, but I'm influenced by a few things. One, that there are no bars which cater to this lifestyle. That would be perfect, if you could go to a bar and know that nearly all of the patrons were dominant or submissive, so you just needed to meet a woman, and it would be quickly apparent if she was dominant or submissive. You could be friends with submissive women, and potential slaves to dominant women. It's such an incredibly powerful desire that if such people existed in numbers, a bar could make a fortune, since everyone enjoys the fun of social interaction and meeing friends and getting together with them, and having a place to go. There are all kinds of gay bars, which also cater to TG people, and have been for decades, but with this lifestyle, there seem to be only events, not regular places where  you could go any night.

Also, if you look at FLR sites/lists, there are usually only a couple of thousand males on them. Presumably 200 million or so males have access to the internet, so as a matter of numbers, that's only 1 out of every 100,000 males who have located that site/list. Given the male interest in porn, which exists whether or not they are in a relationship, and the power and pleasure of submission, that's a very small number. Even if the figure is 100 times that high, that's still only 1 out of 1000 males, which is why I believe it's very rare, and why places don't exist which cater to it. Capitalism will always find outlets for anything which has a demand. It's kind of embarrassing when your idea of hard core porn is for your wife to put an apron on you and have you do her laundry or nails, but pleasure is pleasure, and there aren't many sites which cater to submissive males, whatever their kinks, and those that exist don't have many people on them, as a matter of percentages.

It makes me laugh when these FLR sites discuss how female supremacy is the "wave of the future" and clearly on the rise. Men just aren't interested in it, nor are women, except in negligible percentages, from what evidence we have, and though we are speculating, the only evidence we do have does support this contention. That's not important, since so long as you can find a single person who enjoys what you do, that's all that matters, but it's not easy, when compared to "normal" ways of meeting people, whether you are straight, gay, TG, or whatever.





Lynnxz -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 7:58:48 AM)

Blah.

Anyone want a 'service' sub? I have one that won't leave me alone, although I think he identifies more with the "Give me free spankietime/attention/'punishment' and spend all day bothering with me, and in return, I'll knock some dust around" submissive.



Tavane -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 8:39:15 AM)

I do think your attitude is not uncommon. I've noted the "It's all about me" attitude in many profiles, and some doms clearly don't like men, and seem to incorporate that into their lifestyle. The reality is that although she is the mistress, the slave controls the relationship, so if he's not getting his needs met to some degree, he will simply leave. I suppose many doms don't want a relationship, or to have any affection for their slaves. Everyone is different.



strangedesire -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 8:54:22 AM)

quote:

if he's not getting his needs met to some degree, he will simply leave.


This is true.  However, it doesn't imply this: 

quote:

The reality is that although she is the mistress, the slave controls the relationship


Yes, either party can step away from the relationship at any time.  That makes it consensual, but it shouldn't dictate the power dynamics within that relationship.  If a man refuses to give up control within the context of the relationship, he is neither a submissive nor a slave.  He is simply someone looking to fulfill his kinky fantasies, whether they revolve around whips and leather or simply involve doing housework. 

I may have my terminology wrong, but if I understand things correctly, that's not what "service submissive" means.

[edited to tweak formatting.]



Andalusite -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 9:47:02 AM)

Tavane, it sometimes does work, as I was with the submissive who introduced me to BDSM for almost 5 years. Granted, it didn't continue working, but we're still friendly, and it's relatively rare for people who are only 20 to find the person they are able to happily spend the rest of their life with. For me, I would not want erotic pleasure from a man I wasn't romantically, emotionally, and sexually involved with. I don't want him having sex with me, even if it doesn't involve our genitals.

Reigna, I was also able to find most of my past partners through mutual vanilla interests. I generally brought up the BDSM stuff on the 3rd or 4th date, once we seem interested in each other, but before it became a huge thing I was scared to bring up. [;)] A few of them were already experienced with other people, and the others were openminded or had actively fantasised about it, but hadn't had an opportunity to explore it.



Tavane -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 10:07:29 AM)

Well, in a vanilla relationship, presmably there is some affection, but I suppose some women don't like the idea that the submissive is having immense erotic and emotional pleasure from serving her, if they are just friends. That's the reality, however, since it's only the erotic and emotional pleasure which motivates the slave to be a slave, though he will become incredibly fond of her, for giving him that pleasure. I'd have no problem with giving a woman incredibly erotic and emotional pleasure from serving me, despite that I wasn's in love with her, or attracted to her sexually, as a matter of friendship, but everyone is different. I'd rather be serving her, but if I met a female service submissive, and we liked each other, I'd cooperate with that, and perhaps we could serve each other.

I agree that the slave doesn't "control" the relationsip, once you are in it; since she is the mistress, but if she knows what he enjoys, and enters into the relationship with no intention of giving him pleasure which she knows he wishes, then that won't last very long, since the slave does control that.



Andalusite -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 10:18:18 AM)

I don't want to feel erotic about my friends, or for them to feel that way about me. *shrugs* If it works for you and the people you are interested in, fine, but for me, it would just be frustrating.



Tavane -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 10:53:52 AM)

I think that's one major difference between males and females. To males, erotic pleasure is good all of the time, regardless of affection or even friendship. In a war, where prostitution is the totally normal way of life, men engage in it with reckless abandon, and absolutely love the lifestyle, and wish it was acceptable and cheap in our own society. We'd talk about it quite often, as the only thing we'd miss about Vietnam, even though none of us had ever been to a prostitute before Vietnam, and haven't since. It was just great. It was just something you'd buy, just like a nice dinner or something. Women aren't like that. They equate sex with love and a relationsip much more than men, who equate sex with pleasure, and don't need any other justification. 



Lockit -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 11:03:55 AM)

So because men are wired differently sexually, it is okay to objectify and use women and do whatever they want, justifying it becasue it was satisfying and what men do???  And you are saying women have a higher moral, standard or personal perspective and would not do that??? 

So it is okay to use women offering themselves mostly for economic reasons, in forien countries because the men surely wouldn't do it before then or after?  That is some fucked up thinking in my opinion.

Bull shit!  Bad behavior excused because of horny is just that.  Bad behavior.  And women are guilty of it too.  Women can be just as horny as men...




RedMagic1 -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 11:10:45 AM)

Almost all my friends are women, and if I felt erotic around all of them... well, bleah, is all I have to say.

My friend A had a date yesterday.  She had butterflies the night before, and asked me, "Did I look pretty the last time you saw me?"  I said, "Yes, but I wasn't looking at you in that way."  She calmed down and realized she had asked me an unfair question.  It really is diffwent if yer fwends.



TwoNYCDommes -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 11:21:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tavane
I think that's one major difference between males and females. To males, erotic pleasure is good all of the time, regardless of affection or even friendship. ... Women aren't like that. They equate sex with love and a relationsip  


Ah, sweeping generalizations.



TwoNYCDommes -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 11:27:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tavane
I wonder if mistresses exist who find extreme pleasure in such a total power exchange as the slave does, 

Of course they do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tavane
or if it's mainly the slave who benefits so much from such a relationship, in terms of happinesss and incredible pleasure. Obviously the slave is there to please the mistress, but I'm wondering if mistresses exist who actually find a fraction of the pleasure from that type of arrangement as the slave; or if it's far more common for mistresses to inflict pain, punishment, extreme humiliation, etc, so they can achieve their pleasure, and find that the idea of having an "ordinary" slave to be pretty boring and not something they are interested in.

Just as some subs are masochists while others are service-oriented (and some are both and others are neither), some dommes enjoy inflicting pain while others prefer being served.



Tavane -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 11:31:04 AM)

Men are wired differently, and also peer pressures are far different. In a war, when you can accept slaughtering people with no guilt whatsoever, it's hard to feel guilty about having sex with a prostitute. Soldiers can forgive themselves almost anything, except letting down their buddies in combat. I'm not talking about some men.I'm talking about virtually all heterosexual men who were in Vietnam. Guys would think there was something wrong with you if you didn't have lots of sex with prostitutes, and under that scenario, you come to absolutely love it. It's really a great way to live, if you are a man, and I defy any man who was in Vietnam to disagree with that, unless he was an officer and had to "set an example" which nobody ever followed for an instant.

It has nothing to do with objectifying women or anything else. It's simply incredible pleasure which you can buy for  about five dollars, and almost everyone did it a great deal. These are were nice guys, who loved their girl friends and wives, and would normally be faithful to them, but the values in war are so bizarre that this was just the way it was, and the women made good momey, so it was a win-win situation for everyone. It's been like that in most of our wars, except the current one. I feel sorry for those guys. Men love sex for its own sake, period. Take away the social mores which keep them from killing people, and going to prostitutes, and just watch what happens with such testosterone filled young men. I've seen what happens, and you can't judge it if you've never experienced it, which is one reason guys don't talk much about what they did in wars, except with other vets.



Lockit -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 11:43:47 AM)

I have been with two men who served in Vietnam and knew many other's.  Some talked and some didn't.  Mine did.  One went to the prostitutes (few times) but didn't talk about it in the same light you do and the other didn't.  War I have not experienced and I dare say I might do many things to escape it or deal with it, but I know me... and I think objectifying people and lowering my personal standards... might be a stretch, but not having been there, I cannot say for sure.  I just find that some might not talk about it because they find what they did, distasteful and have been told that. 

I do believe you have said you missed what happened in this respect, therefore that suggest's to me, that if you could do it again, you would.  You justify it... it was war.. it was hard, we killed people... so using them was less damaging or meaningful.  Where the hell are the John Wayne types?

The things you talk about offering in service to a dominant seem just as self serving.  So... no... I would not want a service oriented slave/submissive if that is what it means.  I wouldn't mind one that would actually provide service that we worked out together... and would expect that we both got something out of it, but a friend who feels anything erotic when just a friend... no thank you.  He would be objectifying me, himself or both of us.



Tavane -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 11:48:14 AM)

Yes, these are generalizations, but are valid as such. My ex-girlfriend loved sex so much that she hated it if I masturbated in the morning, to relieve sexual tension, since when I wen to her house after work, I couldn't have sex as often. When we lived together, I'd often wake up to find she was having sex with me. On our first date, when we got back to her apartment, she started undressing me. I never heard of a woman who loved sex like she did. We had our problems, but sex wasn't one of them, and  we were together for 15 years. She was just insatiable. It's hard to be submissive when you have sex so often that your submissive desires never have much chance to charge up.

I know doms exist who enjoy service submissives, but wondered how many, since it's kind of a passive thing for the woman, to just have an ordinary slave to do everything for her.



Tavane -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 12:00:46 PM)

I find it hard to believe that any guy in Vietnam only went to prostitutes a few times, if he had access to them, but really don't know. All of the guys I knew loved it totally, and if they could afford it, some would "keep" a woman, so she only had sex with him. Those were officers and senior NCOs, who made more money, and was only in Saigon, where I spent the last four months of my tour. I suppose some guys feel guilty about what they did in wars, but to my knowledge, that only happens when you think back on some of the unnecessary brutality and cruelty, not the killing itself, and certainly not the sex. I've had clients who were vets, and inevitably we're reminiscing, and laughing about simply horrendous stuff, which you could never mention to somebody who wasn't a vet. He told me that once they were in a whorehouse, and his buddy was upstairs with a girl, and the prostitute had a razor blade inside her, which obviously cut him up, and she came running down, and he was chasing her, and blew her head apart with a .45 pistol. We laughed about that, whereas most people wouldn't find that too humorous. His wife didn't seem to find it that funny, but he and I were really laughing. That's how totally different war is, and why guys don't discuss it much. Once a kid wanted to sell me a coke, but sometimes they'd put ground glass in cokes, and I told him I'd buy it, but he'd stand right there, and if anything was in it, I was going to kill him, and we both knew I was serious. He walked away without selling me the coke. That was the Vietnam war. 



Lockit -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 12:09:22 PM)

I directed a shelter with a men's division and we had many vet's on that side.  Some were okay and some were not.  I have heard stories like you are talking about... except the blowing the head off a woman and that story.  Maybe they just didn't tell those parts because I was a woman and they respected me and didn't want me to know or be offended... but what was told to me wasn't joyfully spoken about.  So it may be true that some is held back for only other vets... and maybe... I like it that way because when I hear justification for using women for self, women that really have no choice and hear of murder for which some could get arrested for and many from Vietnam suffered for when they got back, even if they didn't do such things...  I find it distasteful to hear of the stories with laughter.



Tavane -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 12:50:08 PM)

It is bizarre, but I'm simply making the point as to how different war is, and that soldiers laugh about incredible stuff. Perhaps part of it is that if you laugh about something you did that day, with your buddies, it "can't have been that bad,", so it might be a defense mechanism for soldiers. War is so horrible that  you laugh at suffering, since there is nothing else to do to help you deal with it. War humor is totally unlike anything else.

In a shelter,  you are not going to get your "ordinary" vet. War kind of obsesses  you for the rest of your life, but vets I know don't feel guilty about it. It was society which tried ot make us feel guilty, but with other vets, you are transported far back in time, and 10,000 miles away, and both discusss stuff under the value system we lived under, and it's very enjoyable to unload and laugh about stuff like that. We didn't rape women or murder children, but if women and children were trying to kill us, we'd kill them without any remorse. You don't choose your enemy, and your life itself is at stake.

These women made lots of money (or their employer did), and nobody abused them, that I knew of, although it was rumored that the Assault Helicopter Company next to us had killed a couple of whores. There were some murderous guys in that company. I'd fly with them sometimes as a doorgunner, but wouldn't go into their area at night, since you'd enounter drunk guys and they'd attack you and beat you to a pulp. That happened to me and a friend, even though we were just returning flight helmets we'd borrowed so we could fly with their company that day.

They'd sometimes firer CS grenades into our company area, just for fun. This is like tear gas, but it's much more powerful, and it's invisible, so you don't know where to run to get away from it. We had to keep gas masks in our hootches, and the whores didn't have them, so would be in trouble when that happened. The first time it happened, I didn't have a gas mask, and was blinded and couldn't breathe, and fell into a ditch and cut my head open, and got my M-16 and went into their area, looking for revenge, but they had disappeared. It was an incredibly violent place.

We had packs of dogs, and guys would get them fighting, for fun. One time I was watching a dog fight, and then noticed two soldiers arguing, and one pulled out a big knife and tried to kill the other guy, who started running around, and the other guy was slashing at him, and everyone quit watching the dog fight, and started watching this, and nobody knew what do do, since nobody wanted to shoot the guy, but nobody wanted to get in the middle of a fight where one muderous guy had a big knife. Finally some guys jumped on him, and later the MPs came and took him off to LBJ (Long Binh Jail), on a huge base many miles away.

It was an incredible way to live, and prostitution was an extremely mild behavior, compared to most things.



Lockit -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 12:57:32 PM)

We had all types at the shelter... some okay, some not.  This is another misunderstanding about who becomes homeless.  Anyone can become homeless.  We even had vets who were not client's, but those who worked with us.  I also hung out at a VFW for a few years and the Moose Lodge and knew a lot of vet's from those places.  Some okay, some not.

I was thinking that there are psychological aspects to this I am not considering in a complete form, but maybe it is how these vet's conduct themselve's once back.  I don't know.  I am trying to understand Tavane and I know some of this is my attitude... but I just cannot see some of it as everyone in war and that war were different.  I know some that would never conduct themselves the way you discribe things and some... who I would consider would do the same or worse...

But to miss it... or certain aspect's of it... I have never met someone before you that missed any part of it.  So now I have.



Reigna -> RE: Do many dominants truly enjoy "service submissives?" (2/16/2009 1:04:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tavane

I was the one who was getting by far the most pleasure and happiness from the relationship, despite that she was getting manicures, pedicures, her laundry done, and foot massages which could have lasted as long as she wanted them to. Not many people can have constant and incredible "sex', but a service sub can.



See, this would bother me. No doubt, more evolved types could thrive in this kind of friendship or relationship or [your term], but I would find it disturbing on various levels. I know better than to try.



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