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A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 11:00:01 AM   
Vaughner


Posts: 381
Joined: 5/30/2008
Status: offline 		Now things like this come up often when the Democrat party controls the Congress.  The reason I care about it this time is the current Pres. claimed to be an advocate of firearms rights etc. despite his comment of how people "cling to guns and religion" so check out this new bill.

HR 40,
The Blair Holt Licensing Act of 2009
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c111:1:./temp/~c1117NmbRa:e3128:
(The Above link is the exact wording of the bill as it travels through Congress)

In summary this Bill requires that every person who owns any non-antique pistol, or any firearm with a detachable magazine register it with DC.

Now the issue here is not one of whether or not you believe Americans should own firearms, as that gets into a much larger and more detailed discussion.

The issue here is that measures requiring registration are often vigorously opposed by those who support firearms rights.  (This is because in nations where firearms registration has been required it eventually leads to confiscation a few years later.  Britain and Australia are two examples)

The question here is that if you believe Obama was telling the truth about being a supporter of firearms rights, how do you think he should act should this bill pass Congress?

Or just in general what do you think he should do if it makes it to him?

EDIT: Type-o

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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 11:06:53 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		What about tube fed guns?

(in reply to Vaughner)
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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 11:08:59 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		That link is not working, looking for another one with the full text.

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 11:17:57 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Depends on the wording of the bill. As far as I knew, when a firearm is purchased the Feds already get a copy of the purchaser information. Anything beyond that may not make it by the Supreme Court. If it actually infringes on the rights, then he should veto it and save the taxpayers some money and the US Supreme Court some time.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vaughner

Or just in general what do you think he should do if it makes it to him?

EDIT: Type-o


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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 11:26:38 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Doesn't matter. I'll tell you how it was and how it is.

You never trade iron for gold, but you can trade gold for iron. You can also trade iron for iron, but I will never trade iron for gold, in that I mean I will never sell, let alone surrender any of my firearms for any reason.

I take this shit seriously, no matter how good people say it is in Europe without guns. I don't care. I am what I am, and I am where I am. This government is crazy and the people are crazy here as well. Y'all do what you want, but you get my gun out of my cold, dead fingers. And when I buy, or trade for iron, I don't want any paper. I ain't signing anything, so I am the unknown element.

Perhaps the sixth column ?

T

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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 11:43:21 AM   
Vaughner


Posts: 381
Joined: 5/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

What about tube fed guns?


I assume you are refering to a tubular magazine often found in shotguns and .22 caliber rifles.  Having red the bill it does not appear to me that they are covered, as tubular magazines are not detachable from the body of the firearm (in most cases)

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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 11:58:43 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		The "government" (us) wants 100 million gunowners to "register" their firearms with them?
G.F.L!!!
They don't even know how many Illegal Aliens are in this country. Let's work on *that* first!

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 2:13:05 PM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		In illinois you have to get a Firearms card before you can purchase a gun or ammo, and it takes 3 days for the gun because of a background check(?) Yea right, a background check, they can't even keep child molestors from driving school buses with there so called background checks.

It sucks, you can buy a gun illegally with very little trouble, yet every law does nothing but punish those who use them legally.

Want to control gun violence, make the penaltly  for using them in a crime so fucking stiff you will think twice, but then again if you are at the point in your life where you are using a gun in a crime, you don't care about the law to begin with

In Rockford, Illinois the city counsel is once again trying to pass a law allowing people to carry firearms within the city limits.  As long as you carry it legally (FIOD Card) you are fine.  It is not really to fight crime as much as it is to show the State that not everyone supports their views on gun control

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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 2:28:18 PM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vaughner
The question here is that if you believe Obama was telling the truth about being a supporter of firearms rights, how do you think he should act should this bill pass Congress?


First of all - he's lying anytime he has said he is a supporter of firearms right. Any legislation that makes it to his desk that will infringe upon the rights of law abiding firearms owners in the United States with get his signature so fast it will make heads spin. I look for the ominous "16 shot magazine" to go on the endangered species list very soon as it did during the last Democratic administration. I stimulated the economy on November 5th by purchasing a 9mm pistol. I had in my possession a valid Georgia Firearms License by the end of that month. I do not trust Obama to preserve, protect and defend the second amendment of the Constitution. I really don't trust him to be capable of much of anything - he can't even properly vet his own cabinet nominees.

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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 2:45:49 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Quick answer; he might as well Veto it, no way everyone is going to register guns they have owned for years. That and I wonder what they would consider antique?

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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 4:01:05 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Yup, it'll be a big ***F.U.*** to the "government" if they try that shit.

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 4:43:41 PM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Depends on the wording of the bill. As far as I knew, when a firearm is purchased the Feds already get a copy of the purchaser information. 

*snip*



Actually the  Tiahrt Amendment keeps that from happening already.   Gun dealers keep that info locally.  That's why the Tiahrt Amendment is so important....keeps firearms registration from happening.  Which in turn, as has been already pointed out, leads to confiscation.

The number of crimes relative to the number of guns in the average law abiding citizen's possession is minuscule. 

(See  US Bureau of Justice stats )  around 500k  nonfatal "gun involved crimes"  and 10k "fatal handgun" crimes compared to an estimated 250,000k guns in the US. 

If we just said that each gun crime was a different gun (not valid, but for discussion purposes) then only 0.2% of guns are involved in gun crime.  So most likely, less than 1/10 of 1 percent of all guns in the US.  (yes, includes rifles, etc.  )

So, register over 99.98% of the guns when only less than 0.02% are involved in crime?  





---------------
It is great to be a Floridian...Welcome to the Gunshine State!


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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 5:01:41 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		deleted because I misread the numbers and answered my own question

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 2/9/2009 5:06:56 PM >

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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 5:33:14 PM   
Coldwarrior57


Posts: 297
Joined: 12/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

The "government" (us) wants 100 million gunowners to "register" their firearms with them?
G.F.L!!!
They don't even know how many Illegal Aliens are in this country. Let's work on *that* first!
ROFLMAO
your killing me! and your right ,


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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 5:49:25 PM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline 		Way too true, Popeye!   LMAO as well!

*knock, knock, knock*  Surrender all your illegal aliens!

Wait...they aren't registered....can't track them down.....


_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 6:44:10 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Depends on the wording of the bill. As far as I knew, when a firearm is purchased the Feds already get a copy of the purchaser information. 

*snip*



Actually the  Tiahrt Amendment keeps that from happening already.   Gun dealers keep that info locally.  That's why the Tiahrt Amendment is so important....keeps firearms registration from happening.  Which in turn, as has been already pointed out, leads to confiscation.


It just makes the data in the database from being used as evidence alone. The information is still released, when the appropriate request is filed, to assist in criminal investigations. Also, my point is that the Feds already get this information and have it in the
Firearms Trace System database.

quote:


The number of crimes relative to the number of guns in the average law abiding citizen's possession is minuscule. 

(See  US Bureau of Justice stats )  around 500k  nonfatal "gun involved crimes"  and 10k "fatal handgun" crimes compared to an estimated 250,000k guns in the US. 

If we just said that each gun crime was a different gun (not valid, but for discussion purposes) then only 0.2% of guns are involved in gun crime.  So most likely, less than 1/10 of 1 percent of all guns in the US.  (yes, includes rifles, etc.  )

So, register over 99.98% of the guns when only less than 0.02% are involved in crime?  



---------------
It is great to be a Floridian...Welcome to the Gunshine State!

 
I agree completely with this. This is really just going to turn into one of those irrational progun vs. anti-gun debates though.
 
BTW, thanks for the links.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 7:52:36 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Scooter, as a general rule, curios and relics are 50+ years old.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/2001index.htm





quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash
That and I wonder what they would consider antique?


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 8:11:31 PM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline 		True, Orion, on Tiahrt...at least it is one step away instead of "right there."   And it only applies to guns sold via shops/FFLs, etc.   All those older weapons granddad had....never "registered."

And not on face to face between individuals, fortunately...at least, right now, in Florida...gotta qualify the state, since some states are, well, more restrictive, to say the least!




_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/9/2009 11:23:16 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

I look for the ominous "16 shot magazine" to go on the endangered species list very soon as it did during the last Democratic administration.


Oh, what an unfortunate coincidence. I just realized the 19-round mags for the 7.62 MM assault rifle I ordered on November 9th have somehow been misplaced. I could have sworn I knew where I had 'em, but now it's completely slipped my mind. Oh, well.


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In the forest of the night
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RE: A Firearms Issue - 2/10/2009 12:58:59 AM   
ArizonaSunSwitch


Posts: 205
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Depends on the wording of the bill. As far as I knew, when a firearm is purchased the Feds already get a copy of the purchaser information. 

*snip*



Actually the  Tiahrt Amendment keeps that from happening already.   Gun dealers keep that info locally.  That's why the Tiahrt Amendment is so important....keeps firearms registration from happening.  Which in turn, as has been already pointed out, leads to confiscation.



Is this true ? If so, how did the New Orleans police manage to confiscate guns from (legal) gun owners so efficiently in the hours before Katrina hit ? Was it a different mechanism ?

(in reply to Crush)
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