Realism in promises

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CallaFirestormBW -> Realism in promises (2/9/2009 6:11:38 PM)
I've been following a number of threads over the past several days, and one thing that strikes me over and over again is that people -depend- on the promises/oaths/contracts that they perceive themselves as participating in. Yet I wonder how many people actually -think- about what they're promising when they make a "promise". I see, over and over, relationships that are changing and shifting. I see people entering relationships, and leaving relationships, and I see so many people who come out of these changes feeling hurt, angry, lost, and burned. Many times, it seems to me that this comes out of promises made between Keeper and servant, like "I will love you -forever-", or "I will -always- take care of you", or "Unto death does us part", or "You are the only slave/Master/whatever for me", or "I will never leave you", or "I'll never love -anyone- but you". It seems to me, as we approach Valentine's Day, that perhaps many of the aches and pains of our BDSM relationships, and, in particular, our romantic BDSM relationships come out of this idea that we have the capacity to promise something that is an intangible, and is completely outside of our control. I am curious to hear from people who make or have made these kinds of promises -- who promise "forever", and "always", and intimate that they will never change, and that the person they are with will never change, in their feelings towards one another. I am interested in the self-talk that people do when they are considering making such 'lifelong' promises, for which there can be no guarantee, when a promise intimates just such a guarantee -- something one should be able to count on. So... if you've made promises about loving forever, being faithful forever, or taking care of/keeping someone forever, what thought process goes through your mind, and how do you consider the dichotomy that human beings change, and that relationships mutate, people change and grow apart, and that we cannot always control who we end up becoming attracted to. I am also interested in how those who have succeeded thus far, and those whose relationships, made under such promises, have ended, feel about such promises going forward. I'll happily share more of my own perspective later on, but I'm predicting that just posting this in the way I have has already biased the sample. [8\|][;)]

MRandme -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 6:20:35 PM)
i said 'till death do us part' about 19 years ago. Because i said that i stayed in the marriage about ten years too long. Now i am owned and collared to a Man i have the utmost respect and admiration for. And i will not promise forever. i will not say 'i will never leave'. It was hard enough facing the meaning of the Collar. Do i want to belong to this Master forever? God yes! But in two years, He will not be the same Master and i will not be the same slave. Hopefully who we are then will still be compatible and have the strong respect and sense of caring that we have now. i'm not willing to make a promise one of us may have to break though. For now, it is enough to plan what we will do in July or next fall. i'll take what comes after as it comes.

oceanwynds -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 6:48:16 PM)
I went through that promise and kept it as he did too, but we always told each other if one needed to go we would not hold them back. People change and life changes, always no guarantees, and we knew that. I was wife #3 and he was husband #2, so we both came in with war wounds from life. Everything thrown at us from illness, financial ruin, etc, didnt jar us apart. Death did though. Sir and I are also free to go if we choose, i am not own. Every time he chooses to be with me is because it is in his heart. Everytime i surrender to him, daily for his needs, i do from my heart. I love this man deeply. I have no clue if this is forever, but so far been 2 and half years. It has been wonderful, painful, growing, and yet our hearts are there and yet free to go if we need to.

DavanKael -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 7:20:38 PM)
My ex- and I have been separated for over 16 months and I still don't quite wrap my brain around the falling away/discarding of the commitment of "until death do us part". Then again, there were other commitments in those vows too and the keeping of such required mutuality. And, destruction of self is an unacceptable cost to me and, unfortunately, one of my best friends and soul mates became a parasitic stranger. I do sincerely hope he finds what he is looking for. I take promises very seriously. I don't make them unless they can be 'taken to the bank'. I will go to great lengths, even those that aren't healthy for myself sometimes, to keep promises. I am especially adamant about promises made to little ones. Most people do not seem to take promises as seriously. Many make promises lightly. Honor is important. Davan

lovingpet -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 7:25:10 PM)
I tend to think this is where the real work of relationships comes into play. This is where the fluffy bunny feelings aren't enough. This is the battlefield of relationships and loving one another. A couple who promises forever then have the responsibility for making good on it. Growing apart is not an option and does not have to happen. It is when two people walk too far apart in life that they find themselves so far removed from each other that it can no longer be recified. Even then, it can be salvaged if both are willing to put in the hard work to do so. Sacrifices get made, sometimes very significant ones, regardless of how close a couple may be. Sometime there are things that are detrimental to the health of the relationship and, therefore, must be put aside. This may be temporary or permanent, but it is necessary at some point in any long term relationship. It can be family plans, career, kink, or even that vacation that seemed like the one thing you wanted to do before you died. It doesn't really matter. Sometimes one partner must lay those things down for the welfare of the other. Security is a very basic human need. This is why people promise forever to each other. It is not a bad thing. It is a hard thing. It is not to be entered into as flippantly as people now do. Safety and security are needed throughout life in order for people to reach their full potential. A constantly shifting and occassionally disappearing foundation is no good for a house nor for a person's well being. I have had my forever disappear. Ten years ago tomorrow. I wanted to stand and fight for our relationship. I wanted to be there to support him through all the difficulties he was going through. I wanted to do everything within my power to be the best person I could be in an effort to make things better for us. In the end, it was not enough. He could not overcome his past, was disappointed in what he had become, and feared his future. He knew I would never walk away. He made the decision for me. May he rest in peace finally after a life of such dispair. lovingpet

Sexycelticlady -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 7:30:17 PM)
I said until death do us part and things changed, we changed, 10 years together and we had a lot of changes. You can promise things in the moment and later regret the promise. I don't regret my marriage, it was right at the time for both of us. It was a shame it could not have been until death do us part. I really did picture staying with him until we were very old, health permitting. I have learned a lot of hard lessons since and now I do not make promises in the long term, instead I say what is in my heart now. I take things on a much shorter term basis. I plan as if things continue the way I hope but I am aware it might not. At present I am not going to consider the possibility of getting married again, but I do not know what the future holds and it may again be the right thing to do at that time.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 7:35:03 PM)
http://www.collarchat.com/m_276899/mpage_1/key_promise/tm.htm#276902 When a master makes a promise I rarely make promises. It's often "I'll do my best" or "unless something unforseen happens" and such. When I discuss loving forever, we both understand that forever means as we experience it then, not a universal constant.

OneMoreWaste -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 7:41:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I am curious to hear from people who make or have made these kinds of promises -- who promise "forever", and "always", and intimate that they will never change, and that the person they are with will never change, in their feelings towards one another. I am interested in the self-talk that people do when they are considering making such 'lifelong' promises, for which there can be no guarantee, when a promise intimates just such a guarantee -- something one should be able to count on. So... if you've made promises about loving forever, being faithful forever, or taking care of/keeping someone forever, what thought process goes through your mind, and how do you consider the dichotomy that human beings change, and that relationships mutate, people change and grow apart, and that we cannot always control who we end up becoming attracted to. I think the presumption is that one ultimately has control over his own actions, and can therefore control the ways in which he changes. By extension, your partner can control the ways in which she changes. So with these basic premises, why would you want to assume that you'll change in ways that are damaging and divisive? (unless you've learned from experience [&:])

TreasureKY -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 8:42:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I've been following a number of threads over the past several days, and one thing that strikes me over and over again is that people -depend- on the promises/oaths/contracts that they perceive themselves as participating in. Yet I wonder how many people actually -think- about what they're promising when they make a "promise". sighs I think too often people bandy that word around with little thought to just what it means. Of course, I think the concept even without the word is taken for granted. How often have you heard someone use the excuse that they didn't "promise"? It's not rocket science. Either do what you say you will do, or don't say you'll do it. If someone repeatedly fails to follow-through on their commitments (and makes no demonstrable effort to meet those commitments), they show themselves to be untrustworthy. On the other side of the coin... quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross I rarely make promises. It's often "I'll do my best" or "unless something unforseen happens" and such... While prudent, I have found that "hedged, non-promises" can be as disheartening as broken promises, if used too much. While I agree that it is realistic to avoid making a firm commitments when doubt exists, if someone uses "wiggle-words" frequently, it causes me to wonder if they lack the ability to make a clear-cut decision and stick with it. How can someone prove themselves trustworthy if they refuse to ever put themselves on the line?

persephonee -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 8:56:11 PM)
i had the "til death do us part" relationship end in one foul swoop and in the blink of an eye...and would be physically unable to keep from rolling my eyes on video if ever cajoled into saying anything of that nature again. i would like to say that this would "never" happen again, but everytime i say the word...it happens. i am more pragmatic now. i know what kind of work needs to go into a successful relationship and i know that either party can choose to stop putting in that work at any time...we are "at will" in a relationship. i would like to think that my ability to choose quality people and my willingness to work sincerely toward a bond are going to be enough to sustain my next relationship, but only time will tell.

MissIsis -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 8:59:42 PM)
After a couple failed "death do us part" vows, I came to a peaceful understanding that divorce really is the death of a relationship. So in reality, divorce isn't really turning one's back on those vows. It is merely setting it into the correct perspective, which is, till the death of the relationship.

Lynnxz -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 9:07:49 PM)
I've never done the forever thing. When my first little boyfriend told me he loved me, I looked at him and said. "Ok?" It would be convienient to love someone forever, but it's obvious that people change, and that sometimes sticking things out isn't the best idea... it's why I roll my eyes at friends who get married and pop out a couple of crotchfruit right away.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 9:22:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY While prudent, I have found that "hedged, non-promises" can be as disheartening as broken promises, if used too much. While I agree that it is realistic to avoid making a firm commitments when doubt exists, if someone uses "wiggle-words" frequently, it causes me to wonder if they lack the ability to make a clear-cut decision and stick with it. How can someone prove themselves trustworthy if they refuse to ever put themselves on the line? For me I trust that it will be shown in my actions over time, that I seriously do mean "unless serious unforseen things occur" and "I'll do my best." There's really not much else I can do. The good news is that I tend to be pretty literal minded, so my actions follow suit.

DavanKael -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 9:26:24 PM)
I absolutely don't mean to attack anyone as I express genuine puzzlement. Despite, after 17 years of being together (More than half my life, as we broke up when I was 32), I don't feel so jaded as to say I would never make the commitment again of "until death do us part". And, if being grown up means not having the spirit or willingness to say it and mean it, then I emphatically don't want to grow up. Ever! As far as loving, I don't believe I have ever ceased to love someone I have come to love as a spouse or a true partner. Perhaps that is somewhere where the bond of "until death do us part" retains permanence regardless of the relationship. I do not know. I am wildly traumatized by the idea of significant relationships being transitory. Of course, one could get all philosophical and speak of time as relative blah, blah, blah but, seriously, were I to think that a truly partnered relationship was time-limited, I would not be in it; I wouldn't consider it a spousal or truly partnered relationship. I am not judging the validity of transitory relationships for others if that is their choosing, I am viscerally and emotionally reacting to the idea of lack of permanence. I hold love with the utmost gravity and also with the most bright joy and awe and once I grow to love someone, were they to go away, a piece of myself is gone. That is an agony I'd prefer to avoid as much as possible; my preference is to love permanently and deeply. I found particular resonance with what TreasureKY said about promises: sighs I think too often people bandy that word around with little thought to just what it means. Of course, I think the concept even without the word is taken for granted. How often have you heard someone use the excuse that they didn't "promise"? It's not rocket science. Either do what you say you will do, or don't say you'll do it. If someone repeatedly fails to follow-through on their commitments (and makes no demonstrable effort to meet those commitments), they show themselves to be untrustworthy. Davan

OneMoreWaste -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 10:33:08 PM)
Bah, forgot one (blasted edit timeout): Even with harmony and crooning, "love you 'til I don't" just doesn't have that romantic spark that makes the hearts go pitter-pat, nowhaamsayin? [:-] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyxlMV288Ss)

IronBear -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 10:41:05 PM)
There was a time long, long ago when I was much younger when a Man’s word was his bond and oft there was no business contract, just a hand shake. it was worth more than your hide to break such promises and be known as someone who wouldn't keep their word or n oath breaker. You were screwed in business, employment and socially. Pity those days is gone along with the values they represented.

NuevaVida -> RE: Realism in promises (2/9/2009 11:07:36 PM)
I stayed in my marriage way too long because of that commitment. Till death due us part, even if staying with you kills me...lol. I believed in "forever" again when I was with my former owner. I seriously and truly believed it and meant it. It wasn't some romantic notion for me; I honest to god thought it would be that way. Call me cynical but I no longer believe in forever. Love alone does not make a relationship work. And I believe too many people stick around trying to fix the unfixable simply because of their belief in the commitment they made...and end up miserable for it. I am capable of loving deeply and giving my all. But I will no longer promise that forever. I don't have a crystal ball, and I have no idea what changes life will bring. I will commit to someone for as long as it makes sense to commit to him. Life is short and time flies by so quickly. We only get one crack at this life and I will not sacrifice my health and well being again for a relationship. I might hope for "forever", but I don't plan for it. I just don't see it as realistic. Then again, maybe I've just turned cynical. Or maybe I'm still dealing with the aftermath.

CatdeMedici -> RE: Realism in promises (2/10/2009 2:14:12 AM)
I have made two life promises: one to My mother ---(even to this day her urn sits in the living room)---and to My UM, beyond that, I make no lifetime promises.

allthatjaz -> RE: Realism in promises (2/10/2009 3:06:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I see, over and over, relationships that are changing and shifting. I see people entering relationships, and leaving relationships, and I see so many people who come out of these changes feeling hurt, angry, lost, and burned. Many times, it seems to me that this comes out of promises made between Keeper and servant, like "I will love you -forever-", or "I will -always- take care of you", or "Unto death does us part", or "You are the only slave/Master/whatever for me", or "I will never leave you", or "I'll never love -anyone- but you". It seems to me, as we approach Valentine's Day, that perhaps many of the aches and pains of our BDSM relationships, and, in particular, our romantic BDSM relationships come out of this idea that we have the capacity to promise something that is an intangible, and is completely outside of our control. We all change and shift and sometimes that does negative things to a relationship but what starts as united love, romance and devotion can, over a period of time become unfulfilled with frustration and fallout. We would see the warning signs and gradually come to recognise that the original intention has clearly changed. We would not be those same people that once made such loving promises or at least one of us wouldn't be and for that reason we can never blame that original promise that was true at the time it was spoken but became invalid after a period of time. Its all so complex and individual and I don't believe its as simple as quoting ones undying love for eternity. None of us can really know that unless we are capable of some unknown magic trick! but that doesn't mean to say we can't say it, want it and feel it at the time when its very real. Valentines day came about from a man who had been sentenced to death. On his final hour he wrote a love letter to his partner and his final words on that note were 'Always your Valentine' (that was his name). His final statement was that he would love her and be with her from beyond the grave. There was no 'until death us depart'.

marie2 -> RE: Realism in promises (2/10/2009 3:14:11 AM)
I took the marriage vow, and at the time believed I would feel that way forever. I turned out to be wrong. Things change. I might care about someone forever, but I can't guarantee I'll want to be with them in a relationship forever. So, I'm not an advocate of promises, contracts, or vows.

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