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Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/9/2009 10:56:15 PM

Vendaval

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We have had some threads on unions in the past months and I think it is relevant to discuss the pros and cons of union vs non-union labor, particularly in the case of construction.

Your thoughts and opinions please.

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Post #: 1

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/9/2009 11:22:40 PM

TheHeretic

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      Unlike the muscle of the unskilled labor force unions (fuck-em), and the public employee unions (outlaw-em), I support the actual trade unions. Carpenters, electricians, masons... To my way of thinking, these are the guilds of the skilled. I don't always care for the practices and a few of the people, but these are what unions are meant to be.

     I saw some Youtube video last week of Robert Reich testifying before Charlie Rangel about the stimulus, the importance of rebuilding infrastructure, and that these jobs weren't for white male construction workers, but would go to the long-term unemployed, women and minorities (no shit. link here). I had issues with that which had nothing to do with the rascism.

     I know a bit about about building big things, and more still about ripping them down. You want skill and experience all over that jobsite.

     I'm going to drive over bridges that are built in the coming years. I care about who tied the rebar in the piers.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 2/9/2009 11:25:48 PM >

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RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/9/2009 11:33:54 PM

Vendaval

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I hear you, Rich. Making sure a project is built to code and that all safety procedures are followed along with proper training rank high on my list.

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 3

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/9/2009 11:37:47 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
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More of your rightwing bullshit,harry?

Looks like Rush really does run the neo-con party.

http://robertreich.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-rush-limbaugh-sean.html

"An Open Letter to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Michelle Malkin "

"In a time like this, when tempers are riding high and many Americans are close to panic about their jobs and finances, you have a special responsibility to consider the accuracy of what you say and the consequences of inflammatory and erroneous statements. In the last few days, manifestly distorting my words and pulling them out of context, you have accused me of wanting to exclude white males from jobs generated by the stimulus package. Anyone who takes a moment to examine what I actually said and wrote knows this to be an absurd misrepresentation of my position (see this). "

You can count yourself among those who the letter is addressed to.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/9/2009 11:38:17 PM >

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RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 2:16:04 AM

MasterShake69

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When a non union hires new younger faster more productive employee his co-workers dont say " Buddy slow down you are making us look bad"
Those words are used often to the new guys at Unions ;)

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 5

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 4:22:55 AM

Dnomyar

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Mastershake. Take a look at the roads built by unskilled non union labors. pothole city after the first year. I live in Detroit. I have seen raids on non union companies who used illegal's . Employes in most non union companys are usualy totaly fucked over. I have lots of ture storys about non union companys and how they secrewed with their workers. One big one laid off their employes and had them draw unemployment and hired back the workers for $5 hr under the table.

(in reply to MasterShake69)

Post #: 6

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 4:30:30 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

When a non union hires new younger faster more productive employee his co-workers dont say " Buddy slow down you are making us look bad"
Those words are used often to the new guys at Unions ;)

This happens in govt. I know and I have seen it.

(in reply to MasterShake69)

Post #: 7

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 7:53:04 AM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

When a non union hires new younger faster more productive employee his co-workers dont say " Buddy slow down you are making us look bad"
Those words are used often to the new guys at Unions ;)

Yes, my son was physically threatened because he worked too fast. He is a plumber, he wants to stay a plumber (without the buttcrack thing). So he has to conform to the union shop agenda to continue being a plumber.

He has had to go against almost every work ethic I taught him to keep his job. Lie, cheat, and steal (time equals money) to keep his job. He has done work he is not certified to do, and has had to cover for drunk, high, co-workers. His company is one of the most well thought of, in the city he lives in.

Needless to say, I haven't any faith that being union means anything positive. I've seen it through my fathers eyes in his decades of construction, through the eyes of many people, close to me, that work for companies with various unions. They are outdated, self serving, worthless entities.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 2/10/2009 7:54:01 AM >

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Post #: 8

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 8:18:28 AM

Coldwarrior57

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Joined: 12/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     Unlike the muscle of the unskilled labor force unions (fuck-em), and the public employee unions (outlaw-em), I support the actual trade unions. Carpenters, electricians, masons... To my way of thinking, these are the guilds of the skilled. I don't always care for the practices and a few of the people, but these are what unions are meant to be.

    I saw some Youtube video last week of Robert Reich testifying before Charlie Rangel about the stimulus, the importance of rebuilding infrastructure, and that these jobs weren't for white male construction workers, but would go to the long-term unemployed, women and minorities (no shit. link here). I had issues with that which had nothing to do with the rascism.

    I know a bit about about building big things, and more still about ripping them down. You want skill and experience all over that jobsite.

    I'm going to drive over bridges that are built in the coming years. I care about who tied the rebar in the piers.

I can agree to a point, I do like the idea of trade unions passing knowledge to the next generation.
I think that is key to alot of things. But my problem is, and lets just pretend here.
There is a job. a non union shop bids on a job, they have skilled workers they do every thing up to code.
they win the contract . you know as well as I do that they union shops will do what they can to screw up the non union work.
I saw it happen. Now with regards to Gov jobs, I read that unions add up to 20 % on the cost of a job. Its tax payers money, shouldnt the gov take all bids and go with the best one?

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RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 8:34:22 AM

MasterShake69

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If you want potholes and bumpy rides try some trips over the bridges in NYC.
As always its the weather that creates potholes. Also I dont recall any non union people fixing the roads in NYC ;)

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01082009/news/regionalnews/brooklyn/borough_of_potholes_167983477.htm

Timing was also not a coincidence. The onset of winter weather -- snowstorms, plummeting temperatures and freezes that are succeeded by thawing -- has a great deal to do with the formation of potholes in the first place. “The best defense against potholes,” noted Bloomberg, “is not having much snow. I’m happy to take credit for our overall strong record in snow prevention in the past several years.” Snow prevention notwithstanding, the city streets are quickly pocked by potholes once frigid weather sets in, the reason for the blitz campaign now underway. In the past five weeks, Bloomberg said, almost 21,000 potholes in the five boroughs have been filled. “Throughout the winter months,” he remarked, “there will be up to 40 crews working each day to fill the potholes that form in our more than 6,000 miles of streets and roadways.”

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 10

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 8:36:21 AM

Coldwarrior57

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Joined: 12/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

When a non union hires new younger faster more productive employee his co-workers dont say " Buddy slow down you are making us look bad"
Those words are used often to the new guys at Unions ;)

Yes, my son was physically threatened because he worked too fast. He is a plumber, he wants to stay a plumber (without the buttcrack thing). So he has to conform to the union shop agenda to continue being a plumber.

He has had to go against almost every work ethic I taught him to keep his job. Lie, cheat, and steal (time equals money) to keep his job. He has done work he is not certified to do, and has had to cover for drunk, high, co-workers. His company is one of the most well thought of, in the city he lives in.

Needless to say, I haven't any faith that being union means anything positive. I've seen it through my fathers eyes in his decades of construction, through the eyes of many people, close to me, that work for companies with various unions. They are outdated, self serving, worthless entities.

I have worked in union and non union trades. its FRUSTRATING as hell to break that union mentality.
we were running behind on a job, I made the suggestion that we not take some breaks get caught up , then get a little ahead of the curve , and we can throttle back and ride the wave.
you would have sworen I asked if I could fuck the supers daughter, wife and grandmother.
We fell farther n farther behind and at the end of the job we were let go because of poor performance.

_____________________________

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-- George Orwell

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Post #: 11

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 9:04:51 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Mastershake. Take a look at the roads built by unskilled non union labors. pothole city after the first year. I live in Detroit. I have seen raids on non union companies who used illegal's . Employes in most non union companys are usualy totaly fucked over. I have lots of ture storys about non union companys and how they secrewed with their workers. One big one laid off their employes and had them draw unemployment and hired back the workers for $5 hr under the table.

Which non-union companies are fixing the roads around here? Which roads?

I have no doubt that some empoyees are being screwed by their non-union companies, just like I have no doubt that some employees are being screwed by their union companies. I can also tell you stories about people who worked for the big 3.....can you say UNION.....and are now being screwed out of everything they had been promised.

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Post #: 12

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 9:18:38 AM

cjan

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Nothing, including unions, is perfect. The fact remains, however, that without the union movement in this country's history, there would be no middle class, which, btw, and not coincidentaly, is shrinking in the current political environment in which union bashing is as common as working people voting against their own best interests.

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti

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Post #: 13

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 9:26:32 AM

Termyn8or

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fr

There's good and bad in everything. My buddy was in local 5 and went though the apprenticship, I saw the books. The training was quite extensive and even though he left the union, he is highly competent in the field. However only certain unions are like that. First of all local 5 does not ever discourage high performance. The more brick you can lay the better and if you pass up the oltimer too bad. As a result, when he left the union he took with him some serious earning power. In the case of building say a large garage, you get him either a good enough laborer or enough laborers and he will build it in a day. Some companies pay say a buck a block, he loves jobs like that because he can make killer money. I am talking near a grand a day. And everything is done perfectly. He got alot out of that union.

You have to be sponsored in to local 5, and their Uncle did it, but originally for his sister. This is the football playing dyke I was in love with, but physically she couldn't handle it, so a phone call got made and he was in the union.

On the other hand, many unions you just have to get into after like thirty days on the job. There is no training to speak of, no standards or anything like that, it is simply a solidarity, if everyone else has a walkout, you must walk out. For some among the lesser skilled this is their only avenue to fight expoiltation. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Some companies are so ruthless that even that does not work. I seem to recall an effort to unionize the meat department at Walmart, Walmart's response was that they simply don't have a meat department any longer. Closed it down and concentrated on selling TVs and other toys, and did just fine.

This is a form of war, just on a smaller scale. Management wants everything done yesterday for free and labor wants to get paid for taking a nap. Those are extreme ends of the spectrum but it's true. When I went over my Uncle's house in the middle of the day and wondered why he wasn't at work at the Ford plant he calmly told me he had somebody else to punch him in and out. I thought it was wrong then as I do now, but in this case it was one of my kinfolk filling their bags with bread, so I shut the fuck up.

Lucky for him he didn't work for Ford before the union. They paid unprecedented wages but the work was very hard. People actually died there. But the money was great, and the company still turned a profit.

Actually, looking at the big picture which is something I tend to do, the unions just followed suit "or suits". Management was happy to abuse it's power, but then when the unions got into power they abused it just the same.

Human nature. What else can I say.

T

(in reply to Coldwarrior57)

Post #: 14

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 9:30:17 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Nothing, including unions, is perfect. The fact remains, however, that without the union movement in this country's history, there would be no middle class, which, btw, and not coincidentaly, is shrinking in the current political environment in which union bashing is as common as working people voting against their own best interests.

I have never said the unions were not a good thing when they were started. But now we have labor laws to protect workers. If people still want to pay someone else to manage their jobs, then I guess that is their business. But when the government starts saying we will only deal with union companies, that is different. That is punishing the non-union companies for being able to stay in business without union interference. To me thats just bs.

_____________________________

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Post #: 15

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 10:27:07 AM

Owner59

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But when you have(had) a president who didn`t enforce those laws,there is no law.

Who fills the breach?

Unions.

The men who were buried in that Utah coal mind collapse(which also became their grave site) were non-union.The mine owner,a douche bag republican with many safety violations but little/no scrutiny.

There will always be a need for unions because of the constant push back by bad faith predator capitalists, like that mine owner.The only folks fighting insurance companies and hospital owners to improve health/safety/working/patient conditions are unions and some consumer advocacy groups.

This is a matter of freedom really,and those that would take it away.Those that fight and re-fight for safety and a living wage and those that would scarifies safety for profit at the expense of workers.

http://www.kutv.com/content/news/southernutah/story/Utah-Senators-Disappointed-In-Coal-Mines-Lack-Of/O1V-ynnY7UWLTKBsmwv5Ng.cspx

"In an official news release, Sen. Orrin Hatch said he was disappointed in the mine's owners for allowing the sacrifice of safety measures underground at the risk of workers' lives.

"The mine operation was guilty of a reckless and systematic disregard of miners' safety and of the mining regulations designed to protect them," Hatch said.

he U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA) on Thursday released its final accident report into the mine's collapse on Aug. 6, 2007. It effectively blamed the mine's operators, Genwal Resources, Inc. and Murray Energy Corp. of removing safety measures from the mine and performing dangerous mining practices. (Read the entire MSHA report)

MSHA also blamed Crandall Canyon officials of failing to report three different coal outbursts -- which happened close to the time of the cave-in -- to authorities. The report said that knowledge of the outbursts could have led regulators to prevent the subsequent tragedies that killed nine miners."

~~~~~~~~

Since these guys are (opps,..were)un-skilled laborers,I guess they don`t really matter anyway,so fuck em,....Right Heretic?

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/10/2009 10:32:59 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Post #: 16

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 10:28:25 AM

Termyn8or

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Just mentioning, I have never been in a union. I stand on my own abilities and that is why I get top buck, and that is why I am home right now, because I can be.

T

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Post #: 17

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 10:38:24 AM

cjan

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Joined: 2/21/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Nothing, including unions, is perfect. The fact remains, however, that without the union movement in this country's history, there would be no middle class, which, btw, and not coincidentaly, is shrinking in the current political environment in which union bashing is as common as working people voting against their own best interests.

I have never said the unions were not a good thing when they were started. But now we have labor laws to protect workers. If people still want to pay someone else to manage their jobs, then I guess that is their business. But when the government starts saying we will only deal with union companies, that is different. That is punishing the non-union companies for being able to stay in business without union interference. To me thats just bs.

What you call "union interference", I call collective bargaining. If one truly believes in the capitalist system of free markets, I would think that they would support collective bargaining of workers. After all, their labor is what they are selling .

_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti

(in reply to thishereboi)

Post #: 18

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 10:52:03 AM

ArizonaSunSwitch

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Joined: 11/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Nothing, including unions, is perfect. The fact remains, however, that without the union movement in this country's history, there would be no middle class, which, btw, and not coincidentaly, is shrinking in the current political environment in which union bashing is as common as working people voting against their own best interests.

I have never said the unions were not a good thing when they were started. But now we have labor laws to protect workers. If people still want to pay someone else to manage their jobs, then I guess that is their business. But when the government starts saying we will only deal with union companies, that is different. That is punishing the non-union companies for being able to stay in business without union interference. To me thats just bs.

What you call "union interference", I call collective bargaining. If one truly believes in the capitalist system of free markets, I would think that they would support collective bargaining of workers. After all, their labor is what they are selling .

Bullshit, it's a artificial restriction on the supply of labor. You don't like your pay, you go find someone that's willing to pay it (if you can), it's still a free country for a little while longer. You don't have the right to tell your employer I will work for X and you can't hire someone to replace me that will work for less.

If you think things are so biased towards business owners please educate yourself by starting your own business. Afterall, it's so easy to exploit workers you should be a multi-millionaire by yesterday.

(in reply to cjan)

Post #: 19

RE: Union vs non-union construction, pros and cons - 2/10/2009 10:53:23 AM

housesub4you

Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
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Having been on both sides of the Union, a member and a business owner. My dealings with unions has not been as poor as some are reporting.

As for working very slow, mainstream stereotype. Most unions jobs I worked on there was a huge bonus for finshing ahead of schedule and reduced pay if the works takes longer. Some delays you can't help (weather etc) but as with most things in this life, the few can ruin it for everyone.

There are also problems with Unions, let's face it. Some jobs should have a top salary, you want to earn more, start you own firm (I did) or seek a new profession.

(in reply to cjan)

Post #: 20

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