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ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Where did I ever say NAFTA was a good idea?

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ORIGINAL: cjan

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ORIGINAL: Steponme73

Union labor drives up the price of construction.  I build and use only non-union.  Skilled people who make a good living, but not raping the consumer.

Nonsense. I know a number of contractors here in Florida who employ illegal ( mostly Mexican ) workers and pay them shit. They DO NOT pass on thier savings costs to consumers. They stuff their own pockets with the difference. Also, having lived in the Midwest for many years where construction labor is mostly union, I deplore the pittance that skilled labor   such as carpenters ) are paid in the non-union south. The cost of the finished product to the home buyer in the south is , almost always, much higher than the same house would cost in the unionized labor north.

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ORIGINAL: Sanity
Unions don't write or enforce fire code, and neither do they write or enforce OSHA regulations. Neither of the industrial accidents you described had anything to do with Unions or the lack thereof.

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ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57

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ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Come now Vendaval,we all know a tragedy such as the Triangle Shirtwaist  Factory could never ever be repeated today.
Responsible business men can be counted on to make responsible decisions....allways keeping the welfare of the worker front and center.

Triangle Fire disaster of 1911. Please . 98 years ago, wow thats a stretch.
lets try to stick with current affairs.
lets say staying in this  millennium.

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ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Wrong.  Accidents like these were primary reasons unions started in the first place and unions provide education and safety training to their members.

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ORIGINAL: Sanity
Unions don't write or enforce fire code, and neither do they write or enforce OSHA regulations. Neither of the industrial accidents you described had anything to do with Unions or the lack thereof.

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ORIGINAL: Vendaval

The laws and regulation concerning workers safety and buidling codes is not a one sided arrangement.  Training and education and the right equipment helps prevent accidents and deaths and collapsed structures.  Business owners and worker's unions and the government all need to do their part.

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ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And all the circumstances you cite are as a result of Unions....remove them from the equation and who will protect that prevailing wage.....or the thousand other benifits workers have as a result of the good work of unions.

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ORIGINAL: cjan

Cory, did you read my post regarding contractors who build in Florida who use illegal, non-union labor and simply pocket the savings ? If you did, , read it again and pay attention this time.

Florida has NEVER had union contsruction labor. I'd think you'd know that since you venture an opinion on it.

  Really!  Someone tell the IBEW http://www.ibewflorida.org/orgnotes/060130_miami349.htm

And thanks, so much, for the lesson on economics and how products, including housing, are priced and marketed. What you seem to be ignorant of is that classroom economics rarely have any bearing on real market practices. For example, the housing bubble in my area was due, to a large extent, on contractors ( whom I know ) who took advantage in the early days by buying up, at hugely inflated prices, three homes at a time in an area in which lots were cheap and on which they wished to build.
I think it's good that you know the economics in your neighborhood.  We all should.  However, Miami, West Palm Beach and Orlando were all in the top ten of overbuilt cities in the country so it's more than just a few local contractors buying a few houses on spec.  As far a understanding "comps" tell me your joking...or do you think knowing what a neighbors house sells for is a divine revelation. And please tell me that you don't buy anything because a "real estate appraisor" says it's worth $650,000!  I would hope you know better than that...and that those "pre-construction loans" are there to buy the raw materials with prices jobbed out to specs that a bank feels makes sense on cost per sq/ft.  That's mostly the rule of thumb my bankers used..but hey..maybe in Florida the banks lend money on an estimated selling price not cost price...Nice loan if you can get it.

They used the "comps" ( I hope you know what those are ) made by real estate appraisers (whom I also know ) in order to obtain pre-construction loans from banks and to support their inflated asking prices for the finished product. And, yes, they used non-union, illegal alien labor to build them. THAT's how the free market often operates.

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good news for the guy who uses cheaper labor for the same end result.

But very bad news for the worker who is trying to keep a roof over his own families head, feed them and educate his kids. Btw, if the working person ( think "workin poor " , a lovely term ) can barely make ends meet, then he/she can't possibly buy consumer goods ,new clothes for the kids and other essential things , like a new car, appliances or even take them out to dinner, a ball game or go on vacation. In case you aren't aware, cory, all this consumer spending is what keeps theU.S. economy humming. But wait, what's that silence... ? Oh yeah, it's not humming because, to a large extent, working people don't have the $$ and can't afford to spend.

I thought we were comparing contractors using illegals verus those that don't.  Now you want to talk about workers..an entirely different topic.  Quite a passionate comment and I applaud you for your humanity.

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
    I saw some Youtube video last week of Robert Reich testifying before Charlie Rangel about the stimulus, the importance of rebuilding infrastructure, and that these jobs weren't for white male construction workers, but would go to the long-term unemployed, women and minorities (no shit.  link here).  I had issues with that which had nothing to do with the rascism.

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ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

When a non union hires new younger faster more productive employee his co-workers dont say " Buddy slow down you are making us look bad"
Those words are used often to the new guys at Unions ;)

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ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57

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ORIGINAL: cjan

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ORIGINAL: Steponme73

Union labor drives up the price of construction.  I build and use only non-union.  Skilled people who make a good living, but not raping the consumer.

Nonsense. I know a number of contractors here in Florida who employ illegal ( mostly Mexican ) workers and pay them shit. They DO NOT pass on thier savings costs to consumers. They stuff their own pockets with the difference. Also, having lived in the Midwest for many years where construction labor is mostly union, I deplore the pittance that skilled labor   such as carpenters ) are paid in the non-union south. The cost of the finished product to the home buyer in the south is , almost always, much higher than the same house would cost in the unionized labor north.

Myth: Union-only PLA's reduce construction costs.
 Fact: Union-only requirements limit bidders, force
construction users to pay inflated union wages and
follow outmoded and inefficient union work rules. The
bottom line: Union-only PLA's unnecessarily drive up
costs on projects.
http://www.plawatch.com/mythvsfact.htm

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ORIGINAL: Sanity
When I was a Teamster the only rep I ever saw was one great big fat guy who came to the plant driving a long white Caddy a couple of times per month, and he only made an occasional grievance meeting and took our dues. There was never money in the strike fund and they sure as hell never gave us safety training or anything, the company did that because OSHA required it. Where did all the money go? To the mobsters? The mafia?

Have you ever been a part of a union? They only make it harder to fire the scuz buckets that nobody wants around - all the decent people could handle their own grievances fine on their own. That's been my experience.

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ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Wrong.  Accidents like these were primary reasons unions started in the first place and unions provide education and safety training to their members.

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ORIGINAL: Sanity
Unions don't write or enforce fire code, and neither do they write or enforce OSHA regulations. Neither of the industrial accidents you described had anything to do with Unions or the lack thereof.