References

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LaTigresse -> References (2/11/2009 11:00:33 AM)
I was reading a thread Michael created regarding monogamy when I read a post regarding references. So, instead of hijacking his thread, I decided to create a new one. References is a subject I just do not understand when it comes to all of this. I think of references in the context of a job or perhaps renting a house. I don't think of references when it comes to relationships. Yet, I often read/hear about it. Two friends of mine, female dominant and female slave, were horrified when I turned down an invitation to go with them to the "house" they met at. It is a house, in upstate New York, that is female dominant led, with approximately 6 or 8 females in service, in a very formal and ranked manner. They felt that to go, and spend time there, would be beneficial in that I would gain status and have references. I looked at my bank account and available vacation time and said, "thank you but no thanks". Apparently that was a huge mistake on my part. I think I can live with it. This same couple, were having the slave's former mistress visit for a day. The dominant was a nervous wreck because she was worried about not making a good impression. When I asked why, what possible reason would she have for feeling so strongly about impressing a complete stranger? I got something like "So I have good references!" And the slave, she has always discussed that her history in service, gives her good references. Now I don't criticize, these people are my friends and have taught me a great deal. Even if much of it, is simply learning what I don't want. Yet, I really honestly do not understand the importance of references. We are not talking about a work history in correlation to applying for a job. We are talking about our personal relationships! I am 46almost47 years old and have NEVER been asked for, or asked another person for, a reference before beginning a personal relationship with someone. The very idea hasn't even crossed my mind. So I ask why. I don't want to debate whether it's right or wrong, or suggest my way is better than my friend's ways. I am just curious where it comes from and why, if it is important to anyone here and why. And perhaps understand the reasoning as it applies to this type of relationship. Why for this and yet never for any vanilla relationship I have ever seen or heard of in modern, western world, times.

SimplyMichael -> RE: References (2/11/2009 11:10:14 AM)
I think asking strangers their opinion of someone you have met in person to find out what to think of them is silly. Asking someone you know about someone you haven't met but they have has value. Ultimately however, I form my own opinion. Look at our lovely little board here. There are people who if given a reference from me would wear it as a badge of honor, for others, they would politely ask me not to mention that in public out of shame. We have some VERY different people here and what some think is great others scoff at and vice versa and so someone person X might think rocks, someone else might think to be a nutcase.

feydeplume -> RE: References (2/11/2009 11:10:16 AM)
Short answer? For some people it is an entire sub-culture and, just like other sub-cultures you need to know the slang and social norms of that groups. That is where references come into play. I have a better, longer answer but i also have an M that needs attention and care (post surgery stuff and pain management). Sorry i can't give a better answer right now.

LaTigresse -> RE: References (2/11/2009 11:16:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael I think asking strangers their opinion of someone you have met in person to find out what to think of them is silly. Asking someone you know about someone you haven't met but they have has value. Ultimately however, I form my own opinion. Look at our lovely little board here. There are people who if given a reference from me would wear it as a badge of honor, for others, they would politely ask me not to mention that in public out of shame. We have some VERY different people here and what some think is great others scoff at and vice versa and so someone person X might think rocks, someone else might think to be a nutcase. I agree with much of what you've posted and yes, I understand that it is common to ask about someone you are just getting to know, if you know another person that knows them. Although, as you also mentioned, the references are only as good as the person you are asking AND their point of reference versus yours. Example: my sister-in-law might think someone is a fantasic person, whereas I think they are a lazy slob and a thief. I think what confuses me is the perceived, almost formality, of "References" being such a big deal.

SimplyMichael -> RE: References (2/11/2009 11:28:52 AM)
Because so many want to make what we do into something it is not. They search for meaning outside of themselves, they want someone else to validate their decisions.

RCdc -> RE: References (2/11/2009 11:38:42 AM)
I'm pretty adverse to references and similar to yourself, find the whole thing a bit confusing, but I do look at the friendships people have and the way they interact with people for reference on behaviour. I can see how they may work from a service point of view, however. the.dark.

jennifer819 -> RE: References (2/11/2009 11:38:51 AM)
There are a few people whos opinions i would take into consideration if i were to meet or start a relationship with someone new.But for the most part i need to know them and see for myself.The one thing ive found giving a reference useful for though is for those online that demand i send pictures or call them to prove im real which of course i refuse to do.I politly let them know they are free to contact anyone in the local community and ask as i am a member of a couple groups and perhaps if they were real they would have bumped into me at an event.They tend to drop the subject rather quickly.Other than that i dont take most references or opinions too seriously and consider the source.

LadyConstanze -> RE: References (2/11/2009 11:40:02 AM)
It might help if you are meeting a stranger from CM for example and he can give you a few references of people who have met him before, so you don't worry about running into a complete psycho, who will possibly disgrace himself and you in the coffee shop where you meet.... But that's basically I prefer to rely on my gut instincts.

gypsygrl -> RE: References (2/11/2009 11:51:23 AM)
My guess, and its only a guess, is that the practice of giving and asking for references goes back to days when bdsm was an underground activity and it was necessary to have people vouch for you in order to be invited to a function. If I'm right, I would guess further that the practice no longer has much value since we're no longer underground (though many of us are more or less discreet). It seems to have become one of those little things that make us, as a community, look a bit silly. When I was searching, I would tell people I could find as many people to speak ill of me as I could to speak well of me if they were interested in either. :)

softness -> RE: References (2/11/2009 12:02:08 PM)
References are only as strong as the person giving them, and your perception of that person. I don't as a rule "take references" but I do listen to the opinions of those people I know and trust about potential partners. I choose the poeple who become trusted friends very carefully, and because I hvae taken care trusting them I can invest a lot in their opinion, it won't overide mine , but it may be informed by it. Ultimately my decision is made using my impression and opinion of that individual. I did have someone ask for a reference for me before .... and have stood as references for people and vouched for their good character.

marie2 -> RE: References (2/11/2009 12:03:26 PM)
There was a thread about something similar a couple of weeks ago, and I spoke there about how I do not rely on references and would rather just make my own judgement calls, then someone made a point, I believe it was Focus, about those who might be more interested in casual sexual encounters, and/or dungeon play and things of that nature. Not my thing, but I guess under those kinds of circumstances, it might be re-assuring to know that MasterLeatherClad has indeed had experience suspending subs from the ceiling and using a bullwhip without splitting someone's back open, and here are three people who say they've played with him, and they're all in one piece still breathing. That might help to reassure someone that they are in safe hands. Other than that, I just can't imagine what good it would do.

CatdeMedici -> RE: References (2/11/2009 12:07:41 PM)
I'm with you on the whole references thing--I have to be able to trust and live with My judgement. I think the whole reference thing is a joke, I mean we all know they will be glowing or scathing---I doubt I will get something like: "great oral slave, but poor at laundry, but I think its because we have a wringer washer" OR " does a great job cleaning naked but tends to have toilet paper koozies " OR "we'd re-slave him if we could but we just had to downsize"... [sm=2cents.gif]

NorthernGent -> RE: References (2/11/2009 12:57:21 PM)
It's always useful to have a wealth of information from which to make an informed decision. I suppose the trick is to ensure you're getting your information from an authoritative source and one devoid of an agenda.

Aileen1968 -> RE: References (2/11/2009 12:59:13 PM)
References are ridiculous. You can find anything you need to know about someone just by stalking them for about three years. [:D]

Lashra -> RE: References (2/11/2009 1:00:37 PM)
A thought just crossed my mind and I could be totally wrong but, are your friends in some club? Like a Domme club? Because I have been asked to join a few and one of their requirements was to have references from another Domme or someone with experience within the community. Another thought that crosses my mind is trying to impress for future contacts. Perhaps this Domme wants good references in case she decides to take a slave who requires a reference. Do I agree with it? Well no, not really. I think a person should get to know you and make up their own mind. But in today's world most people will accept a quick reference and not look past that, accepting it at face value. ~Lashra

MidMichCowboy -> RE: References (2/11/2009 1:21:44 PM)
I was asked for references the other day. I don't have any. [:(] I'm just a barbarian. I don't follow any books or rules. I just want a lady to be mine. So if a person needs to meet some criteria to get references, what are they? (I bet I'd flunk)

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: References (2/11/2009 1:23:24 PM)
How do you judge a reference? Get more references? I don't use my friends like that. Asking questions and getting to know people through others is normal, but references? No thanks.

feydeplume -> RE: References (2/11/2009 1:32:01 PM)
Before we dismiss the idea of references completely, how about all the books that we (the collective we) recommend to new people? Don't those people count as having references? They are so well known for their skills and communication that they are published and are recognizable on the street. And as Marie2 said, if you just want to try something BDSM-y, wouldn't you like to know that the person that you are trying it out with knows what they are doing? Guess what i am saying is that references may not be that useful in the search for a closed d/s relationship, but they are useful for a lot of other things that fall under the WIITWD umbrella. What is that silly saying about other people's kinks being ok, even if they aren't your cup of tea?

persephonee -> RE: References (2/11/2009 2:04:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MidMichCowboy I was asked for references the other day. I don't have any. [:(] I'm just a barbarian. I don't follow any books or rules. I just want a lady to be mine. So if a person needs to meet some criteria to get references, what are they? (I bet I'd flunk) You are a barbarian...that is documented and drooled over by many many on here at least.

IvyMorgan -> RE: References (2/11/2009 2:07:38 PM)
If I am thinking about casual play, I will ask if that person knows someone who I know so I can ask the person I know whether or not this person I am thinking of playing with really does know how to use such-and-such a piece of kit, as opposed to just saying that they do. If I'm thinking of meeting someone and I'm not sure, I'll ask if they know someone I know... it's a safety thing, like a safe call.

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