RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse

RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (Full Version)

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SteelofUtah -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 9:05:36 AM)
AND WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

missturbation -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 9:09:06 AM)
Theres a big pond in the way !!

MsDDom -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 9:13:50 AM)
quote: It seems that most / all agree that to hit out of anger is abuse. what about subs who ask to serve their Master/Mistress in a way that allows them to take out their frustrations on them?

missturbation -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 9:17:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsDDom quote: It seems that most / all agree that to hit out of anger is abuse. what about subs who ask to serve their Master/Mistress in a way that allows them to take out their frustrations on them? Did you read my op? I'm one of them.

agirl -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 11:37:35 AM)
Well, I, for one wasn't talking about playing. I've rarely actually seen my master angry. Certainly, I've seen him really rather cross and it's always with ME. He' simply doesn't visit any frustrations, that are nowt to do with me, ON me. The thing is , it's easy for me to SAY that I'd hate it if he DID do that ......but in reality, I think I'd still accept it. I wouldn't hate the fact that he was hitting me but I can imagine beginning to dislike WHY he was. This is because of what I'm used to expecting. If I'd signed up for and agreed to being bonked when he was in a mood of some sort, then I couldn't really complain. I didn't agree to it , but I also didn't not agree to it. Providing the rest of our interaction was the way it is now , I could deal with it. agirl

MsDDom -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 11:48:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation quote: ORIGINAL: MsDDom quote: It seems that most / all agree that to hit out of anger is abuse. what about subs who ask to serve their Master/Mistress in a way that allows them to take out their frustrations on them? Did you read my op? I'm one of them. i did... but more often than none (i should have completed my thought above), this is the "norm" for many D/s relationships. i have been approached by a high number of subs that want and expect severe punishment as a large percentage of the relationship. many who have experience in that D/s that i encounter were trained that was as well (mostly slaves). i am physical, sadistic, and strict, yet i have limits and boundaries i will not cross. so abuse is what it is when the two decide the line has been crossed.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 12:14:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah quote: Well colour me purple and twist my nipples !! Gets Paint and gets in Line Steel *grinz* There is no line, i'm unloved and unwanted sob As Steel said...get to the states. You already know that there's several of us Americans who have bought purple...mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, purple...paint and are ready. [&:]

WyldHrt -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 12:32:06 PM)
quote: WyldHrt........ Mother FUCKER is NOT a safe word. NO kidding, love. We proved that rather well in Vegas [:)]

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 1:55:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation The 'anger issues and play' thread has had me thinking. Rather than derail or hijack that thread in any way, i'm starting this one. It seems that most / all agree that to hit out of anger is abuse. I however am going to disagree!! I've been hit out of anger before now and i'm sure i will be again by people i serve. I've been slapped / punched for answering back, not doing something quick enough, failing a task etc etc etc. I've been caned and single tailed for similar offences too, there and then whilst my Sir / Master has still been angry / annoyed. Now by the definition of the other thread that is out and out abuse. To me it was a part of the relationship that i happily consented to. How about non-physical angry reactions? Are they abuse? For example sitting your sub in a corner whilst angry, locking her in a cage whilst angry, sending her away whilst angry, ignoring her whilst angry etc etc. For some non-physical can be just as damaging as the physical. Again personally i would say that for me this is not abuse either as again it is something i consented to. For those though who are in the camp of hitting out of anger being abuse, surely they must be in the same camp for non-physical angry reactions? Is hitting out of anger automatically abuse, consent or not? Any other thoughts? Please let me repost and elaborate on a post I made in the other thread. Never, NEVER play when you are angry. Who said anything about play? This was about physically striking/punishing the submissive when THEY---THE submissive has done something to anger the dominant. That is not play. quote: The first rule of being a Dom is mastering yourself. If you are having a bad day, congratulations, you are an adult. Do not have a childish tantrum and break your toys. More importantly, your submissive is a person, have the dignity to not see them as a toy. Again, no one said anything about having a bad day and taking it out on your submissive...this is about the actions of the submissive triggering a REaction from the dominant. Second point...if, in your world, you care to see any expression of anger that includes hitting the one who made you angry as a tantrum, that's fine...tis your world. BUT, as some...including me...have said right up to this post, that is not the way it works in our world. Anger does not equate to a loss of control in every instance, no matter how many nannyists would like to make it so. quote: If you don't have the self respect, self control and inner strength to get this, you have no business being on the top side. The reason you have no business is that you do not respect yourself or others enough to take full responsibility for yourself and your actions. Your sub is not your punching bag to blow off steam. It is one thing to discipline in the tight confines of play in a way that heightens tension by seeming displeased. It is another to actually be angry and feel the lashes are a release of that anger. No, the release should be of something else that you both crave. I do have the intelligence to get what you are saying...I just don't agree with it. My self-respect, self-control and inner strength are just fine and have nothing to do with what you are saying as it is my belief that for those dominants, including myself, who can hit a submissive while we are angry and retain control, we are able to do so BECAUSE of self -respect and respect for our partner and the inner strength to maintain calm control of our anger. I am saying that is a dangerous path. I recognize that many people enjoy a "bad girl, angry father" dynamic. I am not coming down on that. I am saying that even as a parent, it is a bad idea to discipline your child when you are still fuming. It is much better for all involved to make a distinction between, you are getting this because you deserve this and I care about you vs. you are getting this because I am angry you little... quote: The second rule is that she or he is trusting you to use the control properly. They may belong to you, but you have an obligation to not forget that they are people who care about you. If you just use her as a punching bag, you remove the "her" from the equation. This statement speaks once again to the idea that the only time you have control...over her, over yourself... is if you exercise it when you are in the emotional mood she deems best to punish her. Not one person who is O.K. with the idea of striking your submissive when angry, in a controlled fashion, has stated that it is O.K. to use them as a punching bag. And the use of the term "use her as a punching bag" is another one of those "activist tactics"...the phrase itself is designed to conjure up bad images anytime it is used and is meant to imply that ANY time a dominant strikes a submissive when the dominant is angry AT THE SUBMISSIVE, he does so in a manner that has her being used as a punching bag. The fact is that anytime you strike anything to relieve anger, you are using it as a punching bag. I am also not saying that it is a matter of the emotional mood she deems best. You and she negotiated all that out either implicitly or directly before hand. quote: Anger is a form of loosing control. Further, given that we play intensely as it is, if you are out of control the risk of going too far is deeply magnified. You will be even more upset in prison. Seriously, do you really trust yourself that much - and BTW if you would strike in anger, why should you trust yourself? THE MOST DANGEROUS THING FOR A SUBMISSIVE IS A NARCISSISTIC DOM/ME. Maybe in your world, anger equates automatically to losing control. That's your belief, not mine and not that of many others. Seriously...yes, I DO trust myself that much...with the same trust that I can control the dark, dark beast that resides within---the one often spoken of when intense/edgy/dark play is spoken of---and I wonder, if you are one of those who does not trust themselves that much, why are you trusting yourself with any of these dangerous implements in play?

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 1:59:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation quote: The second rule is that she or he is trusting you to use the control properly. They may belong to you, but you have an obligation to not forget that they are people who care about you. If you just use her as a punching bag, you remove the "her" from the equation Rules? There are fixed rules in bdsm? Well colour me purple and twist my nipples !! Who are you to set the rules for everyone? If i consent to being there for him to take his anger and frustrations out on, who are to say that is wrong? As for punch bag, did i once mention being a punch bag? Why is it as soon as a topic like this comes up people automatically assume and use the word punch bag? quote: Anger is a form of loosing control. Further, given that we play intensely as it is, if you are out of control the risk of going too far is deeply magnified. You will be even more upset in prison. Seriously, do you really trust yourself that much - and BTW if you would strike in anger, why should you trust yourself? No anger is not necessarily a form of losing control. Anger can be controlled and used as a very healthy tool. Never, NEVER play when you are angry. The first rule of being a Dom is mastering yourself. The second rule is that she or he is trusting you to use the control properly. I call bullshit, newbie. Welcome to CM, where there is no "one true way". The above are your rules. Not mine. YKINMK. You can make all the rules you want, for your dynamic. Not for everyone else's. I'll bet posts like yours are exactly why missturbation started her own thread. Bravo [:D] quote: Congratulations. This lifestyle is like any other calculated set of risks adults take. Exactly and who are you to judge those who have calculated risks and decided they are acceptable? quote: You should not hand a lash to those who do not have control. And by the way, that does apply universally. Agreed but you are working still on the basis that anger means no control. quote: Now I am well aware about the fine line between consensual play and abuse. I am not trying to open a giant can of worms by exploring exactly where that boundary is. The boundary for me personally is where I put it. For others i do not judge providing they are consenting and are risk aware. I would adivse you try doing the same. quote: A more realistic case, he has no real idea what he is doing, but he is caning her spine or kidneys again and again after she has passed out... Are you really going to just watch that? Would you hope that the DM comes along, and therefore you have no responsibility? Suppose our wannabe Dom thinks he knows what he is doing with a bull whip but doesn't... Same questions apply. You do realise this has fuck all to do with my thread? Did i once mention getting beaten to the point of needing medical attention? No i didn't. However should i get beaten to the point of needing medical attention and i have consented and weighed up the risks it my friend is FUCK ALL to do with you. quote: Then that is as it should be. I understand the distinction you are making and I accept it. WTF ??????????????? Talk about a complete turn around !!!!!!!!!!! quote: You started a similar thread back in November...your anger issues must be very interesting. I did? No i started a thread about fighting back in play. It had nothing to do with the thread i've started now. I have anger issues ? Lol know me well enough to know that do we? quote: That was really well written. I go back to my original post, that a Dom(me) should not hit in anger. I truly believe it sends the wrong message at best and leaves too much room for really bad things at worst. And you are entitled to that opinion. You are not however qualified or even entitled to tell others how they should run their relationship. OK so you have answered your own questions haven't you? You want to act out and have a man thrash you for it. If this turns you on so be it. However, the fact is there is a line between doing that in a completely controlled manner and doing that in an open way that can easily spiral out of control. The fact is the first step of that spiral out of control is thrashing her in anger. Say she is still "acting out." Many would get more angry and thrash her more. Honestly that sort of play is not my cup of tea, because it quickly ceases to be play. I do not debate that there are those who like this. There are also those who like heroin.

YourhandMyAss -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 2:22:49 PM)
I would go tell a dungeon monitor, that I feel so and so is in clear danger, and why I felt it and let them deal with it. I'm not trained or in anyway experienced or qualified even, enough to step in on my own, and to do so would be foolish and dangerous, to me AND to them. quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant = See my reply to Steel. Let me ask you then. Suppose that you see something clearly of the not good at all variety where someone is either getting or very likely to get seriously hurt. Let's not play dumb. Come up with a suitable mental image of clearly not good at all for yourself. OK, there is someone in real trouble in front of you. Is that picture in your mind? What do you do?

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 3:12:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss I would go tell a dungeon monitor, that I feel so and so is in clear danger, and why I felt it and let them deal with it. I'm not trained or in anyway experienced or qualified even, enough to step in on my own, and to do so would be foolish and dangerous, to me AND to them. quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant = See my reply to Steel. Let me ask you then. Suppose that you see something clearly of the not good at all variety where someone is either getting or very likely to get seriously hurt. Let's not play dumb. Come up with a suitable mental image of clearly not good at all for yourself. OK, there is someone in real trouble in front of you. Is that picture in your mind? What do you do? Hey, that's fair. My point is that you need to do something. What that something is, would depend entirely on who you are, who they are, and what the situation is. Getting the DM is a good call. It certainly helps diffuse the situation. It is his job to put some limits on everything anyway.

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 3:16:02 PM)
Ok, so then what are you allowed to do while angry? read a book? No wait, you may rip a page out on accident play a video game? nahh, you could break the controller, perhaps kick the system or throw something through the tv take a drive? No, anger and autos, you may run someone over go to work? naah, you might punch your boss or something oh wait, you have never actually done any of these things? you have more control than that? so where is the line?

Nikitaa -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 3:30:36 PM)
I punch my submissive when I become angry. This action is within pre-approved limitations we set. He does not like the punishment but he is turned on by the fear of the punishment. He say if I do not sometimes give him the punishment then the threat would not be real. Is this abuse? Not easy to answer. My sub consents to punishment but does not seek or enjoy the punishment. I do not punch too often because he would run away. He is fast so I might not catch. My personal opinion abuse is only abuse if the punishment is not pre-approved or if the people proceed outside of pre-approved boundaries. Spanking a naughty child (or sub) or making naughty child stand in corner makes the child unhappy but is punishment, not abuse (except for people too liberal who think terrorist and criminals should have extra fluffy pillows and cable television.)

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 4:10:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr Ok, so then what are you allowed to do while angry? read a book? No wait, you may rip a page out on accident play a video game? nahh, you could break the controller, perhaps kick the system or throw something through the tv take a drive? No, anger and autos, you may run someone over go to work? naah, you might punch your boss or something oh wait, you have never actually done any of these things? you have more control than that? so where is the line? No actually, I don't do any of those things. I simply calm myself down. There are many ways to achieve this. If she has done something particularly out of bounds, I will have her go to a white board and write what she is going to get and why. In the time it takes her to do this, I am in a calm state of mind and it has been my experience that the icy finality of discipline that is not in anger, and can not be appealed, has it's own turn ons for the submissive. I never said that there was no discipline. If she does something angering, she knows that there will be consequences. She also knows that there are consistent and well framed consequences. I think that consistency and finality is very comforting for a submissive. I will however, not discipline them when I am still angry. At that point, there is too much chance of administering more than was called for. I also think it shows lack of form.

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 5:07:11 PM)
so then you dont trust yourself when you are experiencing emotional distress? That concept is very odd to me, as I was taught and raised to never lose control, when I am angry I know that I will not overstep anything, because I know myself.

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 5:28:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr so then you dont trust yourself when you are experiencing emotional distress? That concept is very odd to me, as I was taught and raised to never lose control, when I am angry I know that I will not overstep anything, because I know myself. That's an interesting twisting of my words. Actually, I do trust myself to remain in control. One of the ways I do that is by not lashing out in anger.

Asherdelampyr -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 5:29:48 PM)
its not really twisting if you can trust yourself happy, do you trust yourself when you are sad? what emotions are ok to you? and what emotions need to be pushed aside? what part of human nature are you trying to do away with?

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 5:33:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr its not really twisting if you can trust yourself happy, do you trust yourself when you are sad? what emotions are ok to you? and what emotions need to be pushed aside? what part of human nature are you trying to do away with? I am not talking about trowing out any aspect of human emotion. I never said I do not get angry or happy or sad. I am saying that mixing play and negativity is a bad combination. Let me turn it around on you. What do you gain by administering discipline while angry that you feel the need to defend the concept so vigorously?

missturbation -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/13/2009 5:34:06 PM)
quote: You want to act out and have a man thrash you for it. If this turns you on so be it. Please show me where i said i wanted to 'act out'? quote: Honestly that sort of play is not my cup of tea, because it quickly ceases to be play. Who mentioned play? quote: I do not debate that there are those who like this. There are also those who like heroin. What does that have to do with the price of condoms?

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