RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse

RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (Full Version)

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IrishMist -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/14/2009 7:39:10 AM)
quote: I'd be lying were I to say that I understand this mindset. I can't imagine what is so personal as to cause such anger and rage. A family member being raped or killed? Yes, definitely. Apart from that, I'm scratching my head struggling to come up with something. A boss and work colleagues trying to manipulate and intimidate you on an issue on which you won't budge? I've been there, I'm sure most have, and while keeping a straight face I've laughed my fucking head off inside. I could not even begin to try and explain it NG. From the time I can remember, I have always been this way; violent, angry, filled with rage and uncontrollable. My family is/was wonderful. I grew up slightly upper middle class...my parents did not believe in 'corporal punishment' of any kind...we were not spoiled...had a roof over our heads, food on the table, and lots of love. I have always known though that I had something inside me that was dangerous and deadly. It's what drew me to the street gangs of South Chicago at the time. I can't explain what it is; or why it's there...I am just thank ful that someone else saw it for what it was and showed me how to get past it.

NorthernGent -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/14/2009 8:03:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist My family is/was wonderful. I grew up slightly upper middle class...my parents did not believe in 'corporal punishment' of any kind...we were not spoiled...had a roof over our heads, food on the table, and lots of love. That's interesting because I grew up in a very different environment. I'm from a working class background and was born and bred in an area where large swathes of industry were shut down during the '70s and '80s. From the mid to late '80s the unemployment rate was as high as 50%; there were nowhere near enough jobs to go 'round. In such an environment, alcoholism, violence and despair are widespread. I found it all to be so pointless, and ultimately a sad existence. I appreciate that reason alone does not drive human behaviour - instinct is a driver, too - yet being a witness to this self-destruction over the years has led to a philosophical mindset that such behaviour is utterly self-defeating: reason can lead instinct. Perhaps some would argue that anger can be constructive, but I'm yet to hear a convincing argument.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/14/2009 8:04:58 AM)
I haven't read but a few of the replies, so if any of what I say has been covered - then please consider it lagniappe or icing on the cake or whatever. The worst abuse done to me, was seldom done in anger. It was methodical, manipulative and cruel. That said, and the emotional abuse aside, anger was often used as a tool to 'justify' the cruelty, but even his anger was controlled despite the appearance otherwise. I'm not sure I have an answer as to what constitutes abuse and what doesn't. My personal opinion is that the non-physical things you stated aren't abuse in and of themselves. Abuse, the actual damaging, heart breaking and demoralizing abuse, that buries you under an avalanche of emotions that threaten to break you, be it physically, emotionally or spiritually - aren't really an aspect of BDSM in any way shape or form. Not for me. Staying on topic; The worst thing about inspiring anger, for me personally, is facing my own internal angst. I do this by processing it, correcting the issues that arise (when possible) and hopefully being forgiven. I can't see a non-physical time-out as being harmful or abusive unless it becomes a surrogate for communication, and the personal one/one time that might be required to heal any potential fractures to the structure of the relationship itself. I feel the same way about experiencing anger personally. I typically need time to process the emotion, consider how to correct the cause if possible and work toward a way of releasing it. When/if I do lose my temper, and I strike out in any way - verbally or physically, I consider myself in the wrong, and I really really REALLY hate to be in the wrong. So, I usually do try to avoid that whole unpleasantness as much as possible. WinD

strangedesire -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/14/2009 8:09:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist I am not picking apart anything you wrote here, you just said something that I really wanted to respond to from my own perspective. The part that I bolded is what caught my attention. I am an extremely violent person. Violent to the point where I used to attack anyone simply because they might have given me what I thought to be a 'wrong look'...naturally, wrong look was defined by me [:)] My temper was so volatile that most who knew me always kept several feet between us as a precaution. Add in the fact that I was street-gang wise and smart in fighting...both with weapons and hand to hand. There were very few who wanted to be on the receiving end of my rage. My late husband was much the same way. He had a violence in him that you could feel just 'buzzing' beneath the surface. He though...had learned to control it and almost never lost his hold on it. I attacked him one day...he beat the living shit out of me...that's how we met. How he beat me down was done with such control and precision that he fascinated me. He knew exactly what he was doing, how he was going to do it...and he then proceeded to do it. It was his ability to actually control himself WHILE in a rage that caught my attention. He was deadly, he was brutal, he had a vicious attitude that he applied to every aspect of his life, including any and all relationships. Yet, even when he was literally beating the living fuck out me...I never actually saw him lose control. I could feel the rage coming off him...I could feel it in the punches and the kicks...but it was a controlled rage that he never let go of. I wanted to learn that. I wanted to learn how to control the rage and the violence that simmered in me. I needed and outlet for it. He provided himself as an outlet. Anytime it got too much, all I had to do was take a shot at him. In return, I gave him the punching bag he needed and wanted. What made it even better was that we found out that I was highly turned on when he did this. He would beat me, I would fight back with everything in me....and in the end, we both got exactly what we needed to survive. While all this is going on, he taught me how to controll the rage and keep the violence on a leash. If it boils over now, I go to my basement and beat on the bag that is hanging there. He taught me that trying to contain, restrain, 'erase' or shoving it in a corner is NOT how to handle it. For someone like me, and for someone like him...letting it out is the only answer. Yes, now, it matters how its let out; but as long as it is let out, it can be controlled. You are fascinating. In a good way. I'm so glad that you decided to share some of yourself with us.

IrishMist -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/14/2009 8:16:27 AM)
quote: You are fascinating LMAO Not really. I am just a fucked up bitch with a nasty attitude who gets turned on walking a very fine line between right and wrong [8D]

CreativeDominant -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/14/2009 1:28:15 PM)
I am going to try to clean this up as you are bringing in more than one post and tis getting confusing quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant Please let me repost and elaborate on a post I made in the other thread. Never, NEVER play when you are angry. (CreativeDominant) Who said anything about play? This was about physically striking/punishing the submissive when THEY---THE submissive has done something to anger the dominant. That is not play. quote: The first rule of being a Dom is mastering yourself. If you are having a bad day, congratulations, you are an adult. Do not have a childish tantrum and break your toys. More importantly, your submissive is a person, have the dignity to not see them as a toy. Again, no one said anything about having a bad day and taking it out on your submissive...this is about the actions of the submissive triggering a REaction from the dominant. Second point...if, in your world, you care to see any expression of anger that includes hitting the one who made you angry as a tantrum, that's fine...tis your world. BUT, as some...including me...have said right up to this post, that is not the way it works in our world. Anger does not equate to a loss of control in every instance, no matter how many nannyists would like to make it so. quote: If you don't have the self respect, self control and inner strength to get this, you have no business being on the top side. The reason you have no business is that you do not respect yourself or others enough to take full responsibility for yourself and your actions. Your sub is not your punching bag to blow off steam. It is one thing to discipline in the tight confines of play in a way that heightens tension by seeming displeased. It is another to actually be angry and feel the lashes are a release of that anger. No, the release should be of something else that you both crave. I do have the intelligence to get what you are saying...I just don't agree with it. My self-respect, self-control and inner strength are just fine and have nothing to do with what you are saying as it is my belief that for those dominants, including myself, who can hit a submissive while we are angry and retain control, we are able to do so BECAUSE of self -respect and respect for our partner and the inner strength to maintain calm control of our anger. I am saying that is a dangerous path. I recognize that many people enjoy a "bad girl, angry father" dynamic. I am not coming down on that. I am saying that even as a parent, it is a bad idea to discipline your child when you are still fuming. It is much better for all involved to make a distinction between, you are getting this because you deserve this and I care about you vs. you are getting this because I am angry you little... YOUR belief, not mine. I don't happen to be in a "Daddy/gir" dynamic but even if I was, I don't play the "bad girl/angry father" bit. See...I don't mix play with discipline. Play punishment has been called "funishment" and while I might engage in that once in awhile, that is not what is being discussed. What IS being discussed is disciplining or punishing your submissive when angry. In YOUR world, it may not be possible to comprehend that disciplining someone while you are angry CAN co-exist with showing them that you care and that they deserve what they are getting. Perhaps in YOUR world, the only time anger is involved is when you feel the "you are getting this because I am angry you little________________. I am sorry that you do not have the control that I, and others, apparently have and the ability to distinguish between controlled anger and out-of-control rage. quote: The second rule is that she or he is trusting you to use the control properly. They may belong to you, but you have an obligation to not forget that they are people who care about you. If you just use her as a punching bag, you remove the "her" from the equation. This statement speaks once again to the idea that the only time you have control...over her, over yourself... is if you exercise it when you are in the emotional mood she deems best to punish her. Not one person who is O.K. with the idea of striking your submissive when angry, in a controlled fashion, has stated that it is O.K. to use them as a punching bag. And the use of the term "use her as a punching bag" is another one of those "activist tactics"...the phrase itself is designed to conjure up bad images anytime it is used and is meant to imply that ANY time a dominant strikes a submissive when the dominant is angry AT THE SUBMISSIVE, he does so in a manner that has her being used as a punching bag. The fact is that anytime you strike anything to relieve anger, you are using it as a punching bag. I am also not saying that it is a matter of the emotional mood she deems best. You and she negotiated all that out either implicitly or directly before hand. I could NOT agree more...anytime you strike something to RELIEVE anger, you are indeed using it as a punching bag. But like most nannyists, you are getting your own agenda in here and putting words in place OR twisting words...no one who has stated that they have disciplined while angry or have received discipline from an angry dominant has stated that the motivation behind that angry discipline was to relieve their anger...it was to correct unwanted behavior/words in the instant that the malfeasance occurred.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/14/2009 1:35:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant quote: ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr Ok, so then what are you allowed to do while angry? read a book? No wait, you may rip a page out on accident play a video game? nahh, you could break the controller, perhaps kick the system or throw something through the tv take a drive? No, anger and autos, you may run someone over go to work? naah, you might punch your boss or something oh wait, you have never actually done any of these things? you have more control than that? so where is the line? No actually, I don't do any of those things. I simply calm myself down. There are many ways to achieve this. If she has done something particularly out of bounds, I will have her go to a white board and write what she is going to get and why. In the time it takes her to do this, I am in a calm state of mind and it has been my experience that the icy finality of discipline that is not in anger, and can not be appealed, has it's own turn ons for the submissive. I never said that there was no discipline. If she does something angering, she knows that there will be consequences. She also knows that there are consistent and well framed consequences. I think that consistency and finality is very comforting for a submissive. I will however, not discipline them when I am still angry. At that point, there is too much chance of administering more than was called for. I also think it shows lack of form. In YOUR world, there may be too much chance of administering more than what was called for. That's your lack of ability to control yourself...please don't lay it on the rest of us. As for lack of form...everyone has the right to their own opinion so long as their opinion does not carry the weight of law in an area where there is not a 100% consensus in a related area: the idea of whether or not discipline (for a child) or punishment (for adults who've broken the rules (work) or the law (societal) should be carried out while angry.

IrishMist -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/14/2009 1:39:30 PM)
CD? Dayum but you are fucking GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD [:D]

CreativeDominant -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/14/2009 1:54:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation quote: You want to act out and have a man thrash you for it. If this turns you on so be it. Please show me where i said i wanted to 'act out'? Well, it is implied. Unless I have completely missed the points of your other post, which is possible, you seem to be defending the notion of He gets angry and wallops you, For him to get angry and wallop you, presumably you did something real or imagined to cause this. If I am missing something in your line of argument, I apologize. quote: Honestly that sort of play is not my cup of tea, because it quickly ceases to be play. Who mentioned play? OK, so are we saying he just wallops you whenever now? Just walloping for no reason at all really is abuse. If he is walloping you outside of the bounds of play, it is abuse. Women who are into that are called battered women. Not going to address this from misst's point of view, nor Irish's...they've both done that. I am going to address the part of your statement that I have made bold above. The "walloping" that you are speaking of in MY world does happen outside of play but within the dynamic. The walloping, as you call it, consists of hair-pulling of a not-so-nice-fashion, the hard cracks across the ass which are not funishment and which are not play, writing an essay, corner time, etc.. Not play. Discipline/punishment. Usually of a non-physical nature but occasionally...if it moves to the more serious realm of punishment vs. discipline... OF a physical nature. While there are those who see this as abuse...and you have made it ever more clear with this section of this post that you do...there are those of us who negotiate this discipline and punishment as part of our dynamic and those submissives who choose to enter into the dynamic know and accept it upon entering it. quote: I do not debate that there are those who like this. There are also those who like heroin. What does that have to do with the price of condoms? The point is that many people like to do all sorts of self destructive things and that just because they like it, it does not necessarily make it a good long term choice. So...the fact that a submissive might wish to enter into a dynamic in which part of her grown-up duties is not only understanding that she has done something wrong but that there will be corrective measures BEYOND coddling-until-they-get-it-right-cuz-"they-is-just-a-submissive-after-all" makes her the same as a heroin addict? That any dynamic that employs discipline and/or punishment is a self-destructive one, IF that discipline is done while the dominant is in control of himself but angry? Is that what you are saying?

CreativeDominant -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/14/2009 2:00:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist CD? Dayum but you are fucking GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD [:D] Why...thank you, dear Irish. Now you have me blushing on Valentine's Day. [;)]

natasha66 -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/14/2009 2:08:36 PM)
~Fast Reply~ This is my experience/opinion and mine ONLY. Having been in abusive relationships in the past where i WAS hit out of anger, I have absolutely zero tolerance for it now, and I am not afraid to state that fact. Face slapping for any reason is a complete and total hard limit for me at this stage in my life. If that line in crossed, I will be history.

allthatjaz -> RE: Anger, physical, non-physical, consent, abuse (2/14/2009 3:13:35 PM)
Just wanted to say thanks to missturbation, irish mist and CD for there input here. Steve and me often hold back on this sort of topic because of the huge lack of understanding. The point is, if your not ok with this then you probably never will be and if you don't understand it thats because its not your thing. I love the way CD uses the word 'nanny'. We don't need to be told we are wrong if we are so fucking happy doing it! This has all been pushed underground because of the fears within the BDSM scene of whats 'right' and 'wrong' you get enough of that on the vanilla scene without being judged here. We often tread perilous paths. We are like two loaded guns when we get going and we are both so bloody unpredictable that we keep each other on the edge constantly. As far as anger, yes we do go there but we both have a controlled anger... well he does!! I tend to lash out but then he deliberately gets me to that level. It works for us and thats all that matters.

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