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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 9:45:27 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I don't think the consideration protocol is worth much.  Unless of course, he understands that it is a two way street and he is also under consideration.

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 9:57:48 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		IronBear's way of things is something I have always respected, but I doubt he would do it before the proper foundation was set.  Not every person that calls themselve's dominant will have the honor and ethic's that IronBear has.  Some are playing games to get people to do what they want with little regard for anyone but themselve's.  One can justify most anything... hell, look what is sold to people by salesmen, con men and our government... some buy it and some don't.  In considering a dominant, it could be buyer beware.

You can give credit where credit is due or where ever you wish to... but... if you didn't personally find something wrong deep inside you, I doubt you would have created this thread.  If you can live with not knowing what is up... in a new relationship... I really hope it works out for you, but I won't be surprised if you are here a month or so from now, wishing you had listened to that inner voice which questioned things.

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 10:30:58 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		Thank you, LockIt.  You are correct - if I wouldn't have had some confusion I would not have started the thread.  What I had liked in IB's comment was simply that he explained how HE handled things in his relationship.  Whether others would handle things the same way or not meant less to me than an honest example of why a particular Master does what he does.

In my case I believe that the Master is so excited about the possible relationship that he has pushed the timetable on things much faster than most would, and frankly  faster than I am comfortable with.  I entered the lifestyle for the ideas of the deep trust and the open communication.  When I see roadblocks to open communication in even one area so early on it shows me that there may be good reason for concern further down the road.  I just wanted to find out whether it was a fairly well known set up circumstances to have a Master not want to explain his reasons - which are rightly his own.

KatyLied, he knows that I also feel that he is under consideration only at this point.  : )  I give myself quickly to no one, not even for a single session.


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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 10:35:30 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		It's common for most doms to expect "blind" obedience on at least some levels on a regular basis.  It's not common to forbid all questioning.

But this is why you are "considering" eachother- to get to know your styles and whether they will actually fit in the long term.

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 11:05:55 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		Perhaps I will be judged harshly for this but I figure it may help.

There are times there is no "Why" it is simply the continued task of bringing someone closer to the expected behavior that I am looking for. I have a particular dislike for women who are ashamed of themselves sexually. Ashamed of thier Body Image and the like. I will request MANY things be done that are designed simply to challenge those image issues. It takes time and because of the amount of time that it will take I start right away.

Why? Because it will take time and the sooner it is focused on the sooner it will be addressed. If the "Consideration" stage too early? Well that depends on the Dominant. I am a Get In, Sit Down, Go kinda guy. To some this is a Red Flag. I agree with the earlier Poster who like myself ponders why there are so many fucking Red, Yellow, and Purple Flags about, sure there are bad guys out there but if you are always looking for Flags you are missing the Person. You are Analizing thier every move and not getting to know the person.

I require my girls not wear panties. Believe it or not there is a reason...... Guess what I could give a shit less if they wear panties or not.... SO why then require it? Because for most people putting on under garments is an automatic response. Get out of shower, put on Panties and Bra. My Goal is to make all actions done by my submissive to be done with purpose. If I can get even the most mundane of activities such as putting on panties to be done, or in this case not done, simply because they are addressing my wished before thier own programming then some of the larger things will be easier in the long run, I mean if I am in control of something as small as what under garments are worn how much more difficult will it be to give me other things that make more sense than that.

The point is the Panties are a place to start. The Purpose is much deeper than the simple concept of less clothing but the less clothing is a benifit of the action. It is all part of a Process in getting the surrender of what I desire, we START with the surrender panties but we finish with complete surrender of themselves.

To the Op all I can say is that you may want to figure out WHY you have an issue at all with what was asked, is it because you don't want to, is it because you are not ready to give up that control yet, or is it because it really wasn;t appropriate for this man to ask you for that yet? Once you see the reason for your balking you will then know how to proceed maybe you are not ready for a Power Based relationship just yet and you two may want to spend a little more time as JUST PEOPLE. Remember that just because this is BDSM does not mean every interaction needs to be kink based maybe you need to know the Man better before you can respect the Master.

Steel

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 11:37:03 AM   
Lashra


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Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

He told me that I overthink things, that I am never to ask WHY, just to do what he says and put my full trust in him.


I do not know how long you have known this Master but until you have known him a good while and have a solid foundation of trust, take your time. Personally as a Dominant I do not have a problem with my submissive asking "why" and that is because I am comfortable giving him an explanation. It sounds to me like he may be one of those who feel as a Dominant a sub is never to question them. Frankly, I think that shows some insecurity.

Good luck,
~Lashra


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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 11:43:03 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		Steel, I appreciated your comments very much.  I am willing to do the task.  I have not yet given up all control; I chose to allow him control as a show of good faith until I can judge whether he is worthy of my trust.  My issue had been with the possible ramifications of following through with it and whether he would expect more of me than I wish to deliver in a first meeting.  He has assured me that I have no reason for fear.

In thinking about the situation I just became curious as to whether or not the WHY is typically explained.  For instance, while you explained to all of us about the panties, would you explain that to a sub that you first gave that command to?  Or would they only get the explanation later?  I know that there are times when that is more effective.  It lets you see how much trust they have in you, and their willingness to put your pleasure before their own.





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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 11:50:44 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

Steel, I appreciated your comments very much.  I am willing to do the task.  I have not yet given up all control; I chose to allow him control as a show of good faith until I can judge whether he is worthy of my trust.  My issue had been with the possible ramifications of following through with it and whether he would expect more of me than I wish to deliver in a first meeting.  He has assured me that I have no reason for fear.


See now this is something that needs to be discussed outright as a matter of personal safety. If you think there is a possibility that he may not be able to take no for an answer on the first meet and you think that this is where this command is leading then yes I believe a cease and desist is necessary until you have a standing Understanding of what you are and are not comfortable with on a first meet.

I often wonder why this is so hard for some people. I make it VERY CLEAR what I expect on a first meet and then I expect them to make it VERY CLAER what they are comfortable with and as it is a FIRST MEET I accept that I may have to relax my expectations and respect some boundires that I may not think are necessary but first meets are not the time to push envelopes unless pushing is warrented.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

In thinking about the situation I just became curious as to whether or not the WHY is typically explained.  For instance, while you explained to all of us about the panties, would you explain that to a sub that you first gave that command to?  Or would they only get the explanation later?  I know that there are times when that is more effective.  It lets you see how much trust they have in you, and their willingness to put your pleasure before their own.


Trust and Desire to be found pleasing beyond their actual comfort level. Some girls I tell from the very beginning because when they know what is happeneing it works even better, but there there are some girls who make it clear they like the idea of not knowing. I do not believe I have EVER NOT told someone my reason for that rule but then again I only have 4 rules the rest are conditions.

Does that make any sense?

Steel

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 11:59:18 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		It makes perfect sense.  Thank you again.




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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 2:22:15 PM   
HeavansKeeper


Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

My question is, is it common for Masters not to give the WHY? 



There is a time for "Because I say so." Sometimes it is to allow the bottom to gather their own message from the challenge. Sometimes because it would bother the top to explain the situation. Sometimes because there's no time for debate or explanation.

There are times when I insist that there be no flack, only obedience in my commands. However, Pet knows there will always be an opportunity to ask why later. Some people don't want that. Some like TPE where reasons need not be given. It's not for me.

"Why?" Is a beautiful question. It is the driving force of science, philosophy, and truth in this world. Any institution which disallows the "why" sickens me.

Those are strong words, and need qualifying. If he said "Never ask me why. Ever." My advice is get out now (unless you are a big fan of faith and infallibility). If he meant "Now is not the time to ask why." Then he may be trying to, incrementally, increase obedience. I need to be able to count on her obedience in being silent when I ask before we can move onto other things.

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 2:57:54 PM   
lilgirl2008


Posts: 73
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

I am under consideration by a Master who recently gave me a task.  The task is not too difficult but will make me a little uncomfortable.   I took notes on what he wanted, agreed to do it, but found that after I finished talking with him that it made me much more concerned that I thought it would.

The next morning I called him and respectfully asked if I might ask WHY the task was given to me.  His answer was, "because it will please me".  I cautiously proceeded and said that I knew that some Masters would find that such a task would excite their slaves, that some would enjoy the humiliation of the slave, and that for others it would simply mean easy access to them.  He told me that I overthink things, that I am never to ask WHY, just to do what he says and put my full trust in him.

I was in a previous relationship where I rarely got the WHY up front but it would often come later.  Because it was an established relationship I knew that I could trust that he had good reasons behind what he was assigning but it would have been easier for me to deal with to understand fully up front.

My question is, is it common for Masters not to give the WHY?  Am I expecting too much, when a task is a bit difficult, to understand the reasons that it has been assigned other than the fact that it will make him happy and he is in charge?  Or should I be seeing this as a red flag, that so early in a relationship he already feels no need to explain a task beyond the details of how it should be carried out?



Whenever I hear someone say "do as I ask without question" makes me think run run run. You are not his. You are under consideration. It is like a test drive phase. To blindly trust someone who does not give you feelings of trusting them is not right. Follow your gut. If it makes you feel uncomfy then you need to discuss why. If he is unable to discuss this with you, then maybe he isn't the kind of Dominant you with to be with. What happens if the next task is bigger? Or more challenging to you? It often makes me wonder if these Dominants picked up a book one day, read it, and then said, think i will become a dominant today.

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 3:09:47 PM   
lilgirl2008


Posts: 73
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

I am under consideration by a Master who recently gave me a task.  The task is not too difficult but will make me a little uncomfortable.     His answer was, "because it will please me".   He told me that I overthink things, that I am never to ask WHY, just to do what he says and put my full trust in him.



Translation:

I hold out the carrot of a relationship and you would not believe the shit I can convince women to do.

So, if you enjoy someone who treats you like a toy for his amusement, you found your man.  If you want someone who listens and takes your feelings into consideration, this might not be him.


applauds Simply Michael...Bravo. That is exactly what I saw as well.

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 3:18:09 PM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		4 days ago you still wanted closure from another relationship and never got it.  Now you are considering being 'considered' by another??

"He told me that I overthink things"

obviously he doesn't know that you do quite the opposite.

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 3:29:28 PM   
SassySarijane


Posts: 1558
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: KC Area Missouri
Status: offline 		Just another thought. There is a huge difference between the very beginnings of a relationship and an established relationship where trust has been built. I am much less likely to need or ask the why when the relationship is strong and full of trust than when it is very new. That is where I am coming from in my responses here....the position of it being very new and no time to have built up some trust. In an established relationship, I will likely know, because I'll know him, the basic reason why I was asked or ordered to do something and won't need to ask.

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 5:31:55 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		FR

Thank you Lockit for your comments they are associated and more so from you.

Chamberqueen, thank you and if my explanation and example has helped then I am glad to have posted.

Reading Steel’s comments and finding myself agreeing, not to surprising,  I am reminded of the times when I have replied to someone questioning me as to why I have a slave or why I had them serve me in such a formal (Gorean) manner or some other thing and my reply has usually been “Because I can!”, “Because it is my will!” Or, “Because it pleases me!” A typical response from a Gorean Master and much of what is Gorean Lifestyle stays with me because such is my natural manner.

Now I don’t use collars of consideration but we do use a Probationary Collar and in that case I do not pad things to soften the exercise but in fact I am harder on a probationer than I am on a slave collared to either the home or me personally. I believe the only fair way for a slave to assess being collared to the home or to me is for her then she better see things as they are, good, bad, ugly, excellent, funny and just human. No pretences no bull-shit, not sweet padding just reality including her times to talk and ask questions openly and unrestricted (providing that some form of respect is used), and to open up about what draws him or her and what scares him or her.  I am always mindful that in a probationary situation, and I believe in a Collar of Consideration, both the Dominant/s and sub/slaves are assessing each other. Neither party is the top-dog judge for until a collar is secured no Dominant has full rights over a sub/slave.


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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 6:34:26 PM   
MasterLark


Posts: 249
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

My question is, is it common for Masters not to give the WHY?


For me, no. Especially at the beginning of a relationship, every why question is a teachable moment I owe her, unless her whys? are excessive.


quote:

Am I expecting too much, when a task is a bit difficult, to understand the reasons that it has been assigned other than the fact that it will make him happy and he is in charge?


My answer: No, you're not expecting too much, you are expecting to learn and grow...and decide if this Master is for you.

quote:

Or should I be seeing this as a red flag, that so early in a relationship he already feels no need to explain a task beyond the details of how it should be carried out?


My answer: Red flag. Proceed with caution or not at all.




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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 7:32:57 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

  “Because I can!”, “Because it is my will!” Or, “Because it pleases me!” 


Reminds me of the first time I played with R.  He carried in his toy bags, and then told me he was going to the store; while he was gone, I was to unpack the bags and lay out all the toys.  He gave me 40 minutes to get it done.  (Sounds reasonable, but you should have seen the mess his ropes were in!)  Anyway, the whole time I was working I also wondered what his motivation was.  Would he be assessing my organizational skills?  My artistry?  Was he testing my resolve? (I did almost give up when I saw the tangled ropes!)  Was there some psychological insight he would glean about me by the way I laid things out?
He returned and he simply nodded his approval and the session began.
Afterwards, I asked him why did he have me do that.  He looked at me funny, and said, “You’re the sub.  You do the work.”  I laughed so hard I almost fell off the bed!
Talk about over-thinking!

< Message edited by catize -- 2/15/2009 7:33:51 PM >

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/15/2009 11:02:51 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline 		Ya know sometimes I tell her to shut the fuck up and do as your told.

BadOne

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 6:12:22 AM   
oceanwynds


Posts: 1044
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline 		Hello chamberqueen

Since i do not have enough experience on this, i feel it would be inappropriate for me to attempt to answer your question.

What i like to say to you is this; from talking to you on the other side I see you as an intelligent woman who knows how to discern. I do not have the slightest idea if this is way to soon for you after your M had released you, nor is it my business. If by saying you cannot ask why brings a yellow or red flag to mind, i trust you will handle this with intelligence and caution.

Good to see you posting again and best to you.
oceanwynds

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 6:19:59 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

My question is, is it common for Masters not to give the WHY? 


I doubt anyone has done a statistically valid study.

quote:

Am I expecting too much, when a task is a bit difficult, to understand the reasons that it has been assigned other than the fact that it will make him happy and he is in charge? 


You might indeed be expecting too much from this particular man.  It could well be that there isn't any reason beyond the fact that it "would please him".  My slave once had a co-worker who, once she found out that my slave was in fact a slave, went on her own little journey of exploration.  She encountered a man online who gave her little "tasks" to do to prove how slavey she was while she was "under consideration". 

One memorable one was for her to go into the ladies room at work and shove her panties into her pussy.  She asked my slave, and my slave in turn asked me on her behalf, why he would have told her to do that.  The obvious (at least to me) answer was that the thought of her doing so just because he said so made his dick hard.  It's not necessary to look beyond the obvious answer nearly as often as you might think.

quote:

Or should I be seeing this as a red flag, that so early in a relationship he already feels no need to explain a task beyond the details of how it should be carried out?


Red flag as in he is violating one of the 613 commandments of "official" BDSM, or red flag as in he doesn't float your boat?  Could be that the fact that you are obedient even in the absence of an explanation is part of his little power trip, and what gets his dick hard.  Explaining himself might well bum his trip, and make his dick less than hard. If you're looking for mutual satisfaction through meeting each others requirements, the answer is obvious.  If you want an explanation, seek out an explainer.  If you're looking to submit to a man and serve as a slave, i.e. you are looking to fulfill yourself by satisfying him, well, his satisfaction is it's own reward for you, isn't it? 



< Message edited by Leonidas -- 2/16/2009 6:23:31 AM >

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