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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 6:47:12 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		oceanwynds, thank you so much for your kind words.  Yes, I know I need to take my time after my recent release which was due to circumstances beyond my control - not because I did not do my job as slave well.  No doubt that is part of my need for caution at this point. 

I have purposely chosen not to give the exact nature of the task publicly.  I know that there would be some that would say that they would never do it and call me all kinds of stupid if I did.  Others would ask me what the big deal was and accuse me of not really having a slave's heart if something like that was enough to stop me.  The real question I had was more along the lines of communication, especially before meeting face to face.  The only type of Master I would ever consider again is one who communicates openly and honestly but I realized, especially through comments given here, that there are varied reasons for a Master not wanting to explain the reasons for wanting a task done.  It has given me some very interesting insights and I appreciate the input of all of you.


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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 6:59:05 AM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

My issue had been with the possible ramifications of following through with it and whether he would expect more of me than I wish to deliver in a first meeting.  He has assured me that I have no reason for fear.



I do not do tasks for some one I haven't even met. It would be meaningless to me. Any monkey can do tricks and tasks. I need to know if I have any sort of connection to him that would make me * want * or  * desire * to do his bidding. I cannot get that connection via a computer screen. I can get a sense of whether or not there is potential, but that's about it.  Besides my time is much to valuable to be running about doing  dog and pony show's for unknown entities. YMMV.

As for asking why in a real life situation, < my only experience> yes, I generally expect an answer if I ask. Not to mundane things, but if it is something I don't understand or need to know more particulars, Yes, I expect an answer.

                            mbmbn

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Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 7:08:20 AM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Removed because I did not see where this topic orginated from.


starshine



< Message edited by starshineowned -- 2/16/2009 7:17:06 AM >

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 7:27:41 AM   
missfrillypants


Posts: 124
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline 		yeah, sorry, i think that anyone who told me to NEVER ask why something was to be done would be gone. i wouldn't even bother to explain why to them, either, since they didn't bother telling me. i don't ask why often, and usually if i ask why i'll be begining the task at the same time, but i like to know some things, and i'd have to say that at least some of the time it's to the Dom's advantage to tell a sub why something is being done. for example, if you want me to always remember to shut a door at your house so that your pets don't go in there, but you only tell me the shut the door part, the pet might go in and i might obediently shut the door behind them. i also like to learn to do new things, and if you won't tell me why something is done in the process of a new thing you are teaching me, i can't learn to do that thing as well.

in your case,though, we get kind of an idea of the kind of thing he wanted you to do, and i'm guessing it was the "because it makes my dick hard for you to do this thing without question." maybe even that he's enjoying it because you're uneasy, and because you've just met... and that could get old quickly but i don't think i'd dismiss someone for doing it a few times, unless the task was something i just flat out would never do, in which case that's it's own red flag.

< Message edited by missfrillypants -- 2/16/2009 7:28:02 AM >

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 7:32:44 AM   
Interesdom


Posts: 197
Joined: 5/24/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		I am aware that in a new relationship giving the reason might help someone trust in my motives.  I do not usually supply a reason for wanting something done.  Often I am happy to give a reason after (or even while) being obeyed.

Always giving reasons before being obeyed is doom to the kind of relationship I enjoy.  I like obedience - it builds security, trust and therefore devotion and comfort.  Sometimes it is important to give the reason - especially if it helps to perform a service or helps a thoughtful, willing submissive to understand other ways in which they can serve without being asked (for me, that's the best kind of service).

Sometimes, giving the reason I want a behaviour will detract from the very reason for giving it.  This most obvious example is where I am trying to overcome an automatic reactance habit - I can not teach automatic obedience by giving a reason, at least not until the habit is thoroughly replaced.  Sometimes, there is no clear reason in my mind: I don't think through every little detail of life and do a lot on instinct (or, I suppose, habit).  This means that quite often the 'reason' is 'just because' and any other explanation is justification - and I rarely feel like justifying myself.

If I'm asked 'why' before obedience and the reason is not obviously to do with understanding what and how, it can upset me.  If it happens too much, I'm probably doing something wrong.

If I'm told, after obedience, that an explanation of the reason would be helpful then I can choose whether to give a reason or whether my aims are better satisfied by not doing so.  At least it can be a conversation, not a confrontation.

I repeat ... I am aware that in a new relationship giving the reason might help someone trust in my motives.

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 8:19:01 AM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		 

I'm all for obedience and chit. But relationships are complex and obedience may need clarification for me to get it right. Ultimately that is what I want the outcome to be and what my dominant would want.
here are two examples:

He says :
I want you to make chicken cordon blue, rice and aspargus w/ hollandaise sauce for dinner tonight. We will eat at 6PM and I want the table set with the blue dinnerware matching stemware and make sure you are only wearing an apron when I get home. OK, cool no need for clarification or a reason why, that is what he wants, it's done.

He says:
I want you to make something for dinner tonight. Set the table for 8, and have everything ready for 7P. This needs a little clarification for me. What time are people coming, should I have appetizers and drinks for before dinner. Is this dinner for you and 7 friends or is it for you and I and six others. I like to eat too, and if I am excluded, I would eat before the gathering took place. Is it a business dinner where I should kick it up a notch or is it friends who I can make something nice, but simple for, is it a family dinner? In other words I need a direction. I could easily set the table with paper plates, plasticware and serve hamburgers and tater tots.  Was I obedient ? yep, I was.

I know this is a simplistic example, but I think you get what I mean by needing a why or clarification.

                         mbmbn

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 2/16/2009 8:20:43 AM >

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 10:10:45 AM   
MasterLark


Posts: 249
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

oceanwynds, thank you so much for your kind words.  Yes, I know I need to take my time after my recent release which was due to circumstances beyond my control - not because I did not do my job as slave well.  No doubt that is part of my need for caution at this point. 

I have purposely chosen not to give the exact nature of the task publicly.  I know that there would be some that would say that they would never do it and call me all kinds of stupid if I did.  Others would ask me what the big deal was and accuse me of not really having a slave's heart if something like that was enough to stop me.  The real question I had was more along the lines of communication, especially before meeting face to face.  The only type of Master I would ever consider again is one who communicates openly and honestly but I realized, especially through comments given here, that there are varied reasons for a Master not wanting to explain the reasons for wanting a task done.  It has given me some very interesting insights and I appreciate the input of all of you.



And given your past experience, since you are not a newbie, I would caution there may be "varied reasons" for you not wanting to do a task without a reason beyond simple obedience. you appear to be at a stage where "lessons learned" applies, so be careful not to sell yourself short when the moment feels right. If he is a good Master he will adapt to that and know when you are playing him versus honestly struggling for what's right for you with Him.

< Message edited by MasterLark -- 2/16/2009 10:14:25 AM >

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 10:37:32 AM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Huntertn
Does everything have to be a red or yellow flag when asked to do something???Was it life threatening,would cause you to lose your job, or your place in the outside world????
Leave a permanent mark,or threaten your ego perhaps? Caused you to be arrested maybe?Freak out the nabors??? Let me put it this way..If in business, you give your word to do a project..then renig..chances are I'd never do business with you again..  Lucky for us personal lives don't work like that,but it still irks me if you gave your word..then back out of it later.  Sounds like it did him as well...Am I less understanding of a new relationship? Maybe so.......Should he have give you a reason..again..maybe so....but if you had problems with it you should have asked for clarification then...its call communication with your Dom. 
                                      Huntertn
I agree with this post.    Unless what he asked is completely out of your comfort zone, just do it, than perhaps the why will reveal itself, or it won't.   Either way, you will in time figure out if he is communicative enough for you to understand and be with.    M

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The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig

Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 10:54:05 AM   
oceanwynds


Posts: 1044
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline 		Chamberqueen you are more then welcome.

oceanwynds

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 12:54:01 PM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		Thank you, MasterLark, for your insight.  The only reason that I was concerned at all about the task is that I felt that one facet of it had the potential to put me at risk.  It is to be done in preparation for a first meeting and I did not want to give mixed signals.  While talking on the phone, using the internet, etc., can help you to learn about a potential partner, the first face to face meeting is very important and I did not want to give the impression that with my compliance in fulfilling every aspect of the task that I was giving up the right to sit down and talk and get to know each other before I make the decision of whether or not to share my body.

That is why I respectfully asked WHY the task was given.  I needed to make sure that it was completely understood that during this time of consideration only that my rights to my body remained mine.  I wanted to know that by doing as told that he did not feel that I was giving that up.


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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 1:32:22 PM   
lilgirl2008


Posts: 73
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

Thank you, MasterLark, for your insight.  The only reason that I was concerned at all about the task is that I felt that one facet of it had the potential to put me at risk.  It is to be done in preparation for a first meeting and I did not want to give mixed signals.  While talking on the phone, using the internet, etc., can help you to learn about a potential partner, the first face to face meeting is very important and I did not want to give the impression that with my compliance in fulfilling every aspect of the task that I was giving up the right to sit down and talk and get to know each other before I make the decision of whether or not to share my body.

That is why I respectfully asked WHY the task was given.  I needed to make sure that it was completely understood that during this time of consideration only that my rights to my body remained mine.  I wanted to know that by doing as told that he did not feel that I was giving that up.



Let me see if I am understanding this correctly. He wanted you to blindly follow him without question and you two had not even met?? Always remember you don't have to submit to everyone. This reminds me of the Doms who ask me to wear no panties and no bra on a first meet. I laugh at them and say....that's ok I won't be meeting you anyway. That is just absurd. You are in control of you until you give over that control.  I was under the impression this was someone you had at least met and had a relationship with.
Does anyone else see something wrong with this or is it just me?

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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 2:22:11 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		Some things seem a little strange to me.

You gave him control as a show of good faith until you can judge whether he's worthy of your trust?  It's a bit *cart before horse-ish*, to me.


You can get to know someone without dealing with control or doing a single angsty task. And surely most people *know HOW to obey* the part that isn't so easy is * Do I want obey YOU?*

The reason you're uncomfortable IS because you don't know him. If you did, you wouldn't have wondered whether he'd expect more than you can deliver.

agirl





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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 3:07:03 PM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline 		Am I reading correctly that you are less than one week out of an old relationship, and have already found this person, whom you haven't met, but are to follow in doing tasks that may harm you?    I'm not going to look at your profile, before I suggest that you may need a moment to breathe and clear your head, before rethinking blindly following a new master.     M

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The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig

Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm

(in reply to chamberqueen)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 4:12:24 PM   
honeygirl


Posts: 111
Joined: 11/12/2004
Status: offline 		Do whatever floats your boat -- I'm not judging you. I'd just like to point out that, from my perspective, if some strange dude I've never met even once and have been interacting with for less than a week says I should put my full trust in him, I am honestly going to think he's a nutjob.

Seriously now, how often do people who truly can be trusted say "trust me" and literally mean it, lol?? I'm not saying every single person on the planet who says/writes that kind of thing is full of crap, mind you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen
He told me that I overthink things, that I am never to ask WHY, just to do what he says and put my full trust in him.


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 6:07:53 PM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		That was my point in asking the original question.  By not being able to ask a prospective Master WHY I feel that the chance to build trust is diminished.  It's not like this is an established relationship.  I don't mind if he wants to give me a task of curling my hair each day or working out to a video.  Those are things that will make me feel better about myself and I don't need to ask why, just accept that it pleases him.  It shows good faith if I do them and they are not hurting anyone. 

He has been active in the lifestyle for over 20 years.  He knows that I was well trained and may feel that I am capable of moving faster than someone who is brand new to the lifestyle.  I would have thought that with that much experience he would understand that trust needs to be built step by step.  The task I have been asked to do is not in and of itself dangerous, but if he is not to be trusted than the result of it could be.  That is the reason I asked WHY he wanted me to do it.  I just wanted to be sure that his motives were pure without coming out and asking that question.


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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 6:22:58 PM   
Zechriel


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline 		Good evening!
  It took me a loooong time to come to terms with your ? in our relationship. My poor Daddy got so tired of "Why?" See, I am not really dominant in life but I love to learn. And very often I will ask people "Why?" to 1)hear an explanation of something or 2) often times when people have to explain what they said, they stumble and cannot. So everytime Daddy would ask me to do something I would automatically ask "Why?" and he would say, "Because I said so." After a couple of months, we had a real discussion about it, he being so frustrated with me and me having him say that. Turns out his past subs never questioned him, they just did things. And with me, I saw his response as provoking an argument. So we each had to learn -in baby steps-to re-train ourselves.

Some things he would explain, but the obvious as IB said, he did not. A few tiems when i would ask him what he wanted more than anything in the world, he would reply "For you not to question me with "Why?"" and laugh. making a joke of it. Slowly I caught onto what he was trying to instill in me-trust. To trust his judgement in the long term versus mine in the short term. When I cold only see right in front of me, he could see ahead. Now, I can get my nails done (why should I before? I'm a housewife!) get a haircut and style(same reason), and drink a bottle of water a day-or more (yuck but good when I am sick or nervous). Lots of other things like that but where I would say"Why?" immediately, I wait now to see the results of how it makes me and him feel. It is a very slow process but it made us both better. I realized I had to trust him and he realized that not all subs are blind enough to lay down and spread their legs at any given word. lol Thank you Daddy!
Love,
Zechriel 


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RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 6:33:52 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

That was my point in asking the original question.  By not being able to ask a prospective Master WHY I feel that the chance to build trust is diminished.  It's not like this is an established relationship.  I don't mind if he wants to give me a task of curling my hair each day or working out to a video.  Those are things that will make me feel better about myself and I don't need to ask why, just accept that it pleases him.  It shows good faith if I do them and they are not hurting anyone. 

He has been active in the lifestyle for over 20 years.  He knows that I was well trained and may feel that I am capable of moving faster than someone who is brand new to the lifestyle.  I would have thought that with that much experience he would understand that trust needs to be built step by step.  The task I have been asked to do is not in and of itself dangerous, but if he is not to be trusted than the result of it could be.  That is the reason I asked WHY he wanted me to do it.  I just wanted to be sure that his motives were pure without coming out and asking that question.



Bull shit!  Because you have been well trained by someone else does not mean a new dominant should be able to take short cuts when it comes to foundation building and trust. He cannot work on the trust you might have shared with someone else.

You might understand the need for following orders and such, but when you are uncomfortable, he says you should not ask why at any time and demands all this without him doing his own work... well... I think you know how I feel about that!  BS!

I think you need to step back and breath... think long and hard about this.  Especially if you just met him online and not in person and just got out of something else.  If you jumped into this... he may think it all comes that easy and you are easily worked.

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No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!


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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 7:50:52 PM   
lilgirl2008


Posts: 73
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

That was my point in asking the original question.  By not being able to ask a prospective Master WHY I feel that the chance to build trust is diminished.  It's not like this is an established relationship.  I don't mind if he wants to give me a task of curling my hair each day or working out to a video.  Those are things that will make me feel better about myself and I don't need to ask why, just accept that it pleases him.  It shows good faith if I do them and they are not hurting anyone. 

He has been active in the lifestyle for over 20 years.  He knows that I was well trained and may feel that I am capable of moving faster than someone who is brand new to the lifestyle.  I would have thought that with that much experience he would understand that trust needs to be built step by step.  The task I have been asked to do is not in and of itself dangerous, but if he is not to be trusted than the result of it could be.  That is the reason I asked WHY he wanted me to do it.  I just wanted to be sure that his motives were pure without coming out and asking that question.



If you choose to submit to someone you don't even know that is up to you. It does seem as if you are sending out mixed signals. Calling someone Master, telling them you will do tasks they ask, all give the impression that you are submitting. So I do have to say you are a bit to blame here as well. Having only known someone for four days, I don't understand how that the giving tasks thing could even come about. Maybe it is me, but I have to be honest here I just don't get it. You came here asking for help, if it was ok to ask why. And now I am seeing more things unfold. You don't know this person, take the time to get to know them before submitting to them. You can set the boundaries until you are ready to give yourself. It is ok. Regardless of what anyone tells you, you are still in control of you, until you give that over.

(in reply to chamberqueen)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 8:20:27 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

My question is, is it common for Masters not to give the WHY?  Am I expecting too much, when a task is a bit difficult, to understand the reasons that it has been assigned other than the fact that it will make him happy and he is in charge?  Or should I be seeing this as a red flag, that so early in a relationship he already feels no need to explain a task beyond the details of how it should be carried out?



I almost always want, and get, the why. Situations change unexpectedly and he wants me to act according to what I think is best when I can't reach him. Knowing his goal out of the situation makes it easier for me to accurately predict what he would want me to do.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to chamberqueen)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Giving the "Why" - 2/16/2009 10:57:59 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
quote:


He has been active in the lifestyle for over 20 years.  He knows that I was well trained and may feel that I am capable of moving faster than someone who is brand new to the lifestyle.  I would have thought that with that much experience he would understand that trust needs to be built step by step.  The task I have been asked to do is not in and of itself dangerous, but if he is not to be trusted than the result of it could be.  That is the reason I asked WHY he wanted me to do it.  I just wanted to be sure that his motives were pure without coming out and asking that question.



Bull shit!  Because you have been well trained by someone else does not mean a new dominant should be able to take short cuts when it comes to foundation building and trust. He cannot work on the trust you might have shared with someone else.




I'm glad you said this.  I was well trained too - according to my former owner's desires.  Now I am in the beginnings of seeing someone new and there is very little I can apply from my former relationship here.  You can't rush or skip over the steps of building a relationship.  Would you rush into a marriage because you've been married before? 

Re: the OP, it is extremely important to me, particularly in the beginning of submitting to someone, to understand where he is coming from and how he thinks.  If he does not want to clue me into that, then I don't want to submit to him.  Anything other than that makes no sense to me.

< Message edited by NuevaVida -- 2/16/2009 10:58:41 PM >

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