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MmeGigs -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/23/2009 5:23:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Occasionally I would take an otherwise healthy animal and take them far enough away so that they couldn't find their way back and drop them off.
 

I've been doing a lot of thinking before responding.  I live in the country and have to deal with dumped animals.  It's odd, but we never get dogs, we only get cats.  In 8 years here, we've had to deal with more than 30 people-friendly cats that have found their way up to our house.  I have nothing but bad things to say about the people who dump their pets out here for me to deal with, and I don't care what their reasons are. 

I've found homes for about a dozen stray cats.  We took two of them in this past year.  The other half I've shooed off or ignored and have left to their fate.  That's my preferred strategy going forward.  I rationalize this by telling myself that as long as I didn't feed them they weren't my responsibility.  I put thoughts about what would happen to them in the "Not My Problem" bin in my brain.  From a moral standpoint, it's no better than relocating them, so I can't fault Firm for the choice that he's made about this.

I'm not happy about the situation, but it is what it is.  I have no more friends who will take them and there are lots of "Free to good home" ads in all the local papers already.  Shelters aren't an option.  One of the local cat shelters recently shut its doors, the others were full with waiting lists before that happened.  The best they can offer is to put the cats on a list with hundreds of other cats looking for homes, many of whom are never placed.  I can't keep any more, even temporarily.  I'm allergic and the three cats we have make me just miserable some days, and then there's the cost of feeding them and vetting them - I couldn't have them around my cats unless I knew they didn't have worms or fleas or feline leukemia or something.  I understand the "shoot on sight" policy that some farmers around here have for dealing with strays, but I don't think I could do that.  I'm a good shot, but I'd have to be close in order to make sure it was a killing shot, then I'd see those little kitty eyes and I'd be inviting the thing in for dinner.

quote:

By taking them out, and leaving them to chance and the kindness of strangers I believe that I at least gave them a chance at life, and a chance at happiness, even if the occasional cost was struggle and death.


I think that's the same kind of self-deception that allowed the pet's owner to dump it off in the first place.  That animal has the same chance it had before you re-dumped it, it just has different scenery.  Again, I don't fault you for doing this because I don't believe that those dumped animals are your responsibility, but I think it's important to acknowledge that the most likely outcome for pets dropped into the wild is a slow and miserable death from disease, parasites, starvation...  The lucky ones run into some predator early on and die quickly.  Only the lottery winners find a happy home.

quote:

How many men have a problem with neutering a strong, "masculine" dog of theirs?  Yeah, I know, rationally it's often the right thing to do, but I dare say that few men who love their dog don't have at least a tinge in their nether regions when they contemplate the action, and the effects on the life of their beloved pet.


It is irrational, and it's definitely a man thing.  If you're not planning to breed the animal and find homes for the offspring, it's irresponsible.  If you're not planning to breed the animal it seems rather cruel to leave them with the desire to breed but never give them the opportunity.

Men are so weird about their dicks.  I think that this is a pretty conclusive argument against intelligent design.  If there actually was a Master Designer who was planning everything out, men would have some equivalent of a menstual cycle to remind them, as women are monthly reminded, that sex isn't all fun and games.  If that Master Designer had a wicked sense of humor, we'd be like many other animals and women would only be receptive to sex when they're in heat - maybe a few weeks out of the year.  That's an interesting world to contemplate.




came4U -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/23/2009 6:37:07 PM)

I like the way you think Madam Gigs.

Every sentence, cleverly put.

quote:

If you're not planning to breed the animal and find homes for the offspring, it's irresponsible.  If you're not planning to breed the animal it seems rather cruel to leave them with the desire to breed but never give them the opportunity.


I carefully plan just that, the breeding and processes beyond that (the future adoption and care).  So my desires to not 'fix' is for reasons more than thinking it is just a plain mean thing to do.  Speaking of the Master Designer...the designer of most current breeds are man-manipulated.  Being that they are 'domesticated' animals, then be a good domesticator (properly care for, keep safe and well-watched).  No one can blame me for a planet of strays being dumped on their rural roads.  I would even consider anyone who does that as being less than animal themselves.

quote:

If that Master Designer had a wicked sense of humor, we'd be like many other animals and women would only be receptive to sex when they're in heat - maybe a few weeks out of the year.  That's an interesting world to contemplate.


lol love it.  A cat, a content, well fed one, will have hump-urges some total of 6 hours per year (give or take).  Even lesser past the age of 3 and 4 (on average).  That is not much of an inconvenience to them (nor I) to cause deep concern for.  If all else fails, mine is given a piece of fur from a coat hood, he jumps on that to relieve himself...and fast. We call her Fuzzy Foo. 




FirmhandKY -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/23/2009 6:49:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsConception

I guess, I really don't get the mindset of dropping off animals. I do, sort of, understand Firm's point of view. However, I am not sure he sees anyone else's.



I beg to differ.  I quite well understand everyone's point of view.

Some people have given concise and heartfelt opposition to what I did, and advice, and left it at that.

These people I respect, and listen to.

Other people go into a frenzy of condemnation and breathless loathing, without even reading or considering all the circumstances, and call me names.

These people I condemn as emotionally driven, heartless and cruel to their fellow humans, and discount them on the subject.

Some people think it was wrong, wish I hadn't had to do it, hope I won't do it again, and disagree with my choices, but see the logic that lead me to it, even so.

These people I highly respect and listen to.

Some people understand and leave their advice for private conversation, or respect and understand enough to believe that I am moral enough and intelligent enough to work my own issues, and allow me to live my life the best I can.

These people I consider worth knowing, and friends in waiting.

I think I've lost a few "friends" over this issue, but I think I've gained a real friend or two. 

All and all, a major plus in my book.

I'll be likely gone out of town for the next week, so won't be on the forums much (although occasional opportunity may present itself), so everyone is welcome to continue the discussion, but I doubt I'll be participating any more.

Firm






Irishknight -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/23/2009 8:40:25 PM)

Wirm, just for the record, it took balls to start this thread.  You knew what kind of heat you would take and did it anyway.  We will probably never agree on this issue but I figured someone should mention that.




TranceTara -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/23/2009 9:02:59 PM)

quote:

I am not against euthanizing animals, I am very glad we can. I had to put one of my dogs down last week. It's terribly hard but it was a promise I made to myself years ago. I have the ability to give an animal a peaceful and non-suffering death. I will not keep an animal alive because I am too selfish to do the responsible thing. I wish we could help our human terminally ill loved ones go as peacefully.


I am truly sorry LaTigresse, having to put down a companion animal is never an easy decision. A big hug to you. I hope you are doing okay.

And, I agree with you about euthanasia for our loved ones. I had to watch an aunt suffer on life support for 6 weeks, and finally she let go.

Firmhand, when I first read your OP I felt my stomach cringe and a feeling came over me. It was shock. Then I read through the other posts and I sat with the feeling. Then I tried to think what I would do. The fact is, I have never been in a situation like that so I cannot answer that. Hypotheticals get me no where.

Do I agree with "dropping off" an animal? Intellectually, no I don't. But, I can understand, based upon the facts you provided, why you made the choice you did. It is easy for me to sit in judgment and I won't, for I'm sure if someone wanted to go through my life and pick out things I could have done differently, well, they could. Putting my mother in home when I could no longer care for her because of her Alzheimer's was the toughest. I've had some judge me for that.

It took guts to post what you did and it has given me loads of food for thought and ideas on ways of helping out so perhaps, in future, others will not be in such a predicament. It all boils down to taking responsibility for oneself.

I hope you have a nice trip.

Blessings,
TT

Darn. Spellcheck doesn't help when you spell correctly but use the wrong word!




NuevaVida -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/23/2009 9:47:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Wirm, just for the record, it took balls to start this thread.  You knew what kind of heat you would take and did it anyway.  We will probably never agree on this issue but I figured someone should mention that.


Well you see he posted a controversial topic that many people feel passionate about.  He even said he knew it was an emotional topic.  And when people responded as he knew they would, he lashed out with insults and sarcasm:  

“I got two words for ya…I’ll let ya guess what they are”

  “I, on the other hand, am obviously a coward”

  “Then go grab the ring around the porcelain goddess and have a good puke.”
 
“*rolls eyes*”
 
“Currently I’m ready to be snarky and dismissive…”

  “Doesn’t it make you feel lonely sometimes…being able to not only read and comprehend…but to be able to explain it succinctly as well?”  

Then he went on to describe these predicted, compassionate responses as visceral, breathless loathing, emotionally driven (although a few pages back he realized this was an emotional topic), heartless and cruel.

So, while he recognized this was quite the topic to put out there (and I'm glad he did put it out there, actually), his handling of the responses didn't do much for his cause (if there was a cause).  And while I've never been the recipient of numerous dog drops, I found myself not really interested in conversing with him about it further because of the way he was addressing others. 






stella41b -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/23/2009 10:46:00 PM)

I'm probably going to be uncharacteristic here, though my inner instinct and gut reaction is telling me not to touch this one with a bargepole, but I'm coming in here late and have the advantage of almost a dozen or so pages of responses.

This is a first for me, truly it is, because I can honestly state that I understand Firmhand's reasoning and thinking. I knew from the OP that Firmhand is to some degree an animal lover and therefore when it came to dumping dogs, even before I reached the page in question, I knew that even he would not dump any dog that he honestly believed did not haver an outside chance of survival. And it is on the basis of this premeditated attempt by him at assessing the risks posed to the animal and considering the chances of survival alone which cause me to accept his plea of mitigating circumstances.

Do I condemn him? No, because I do not condemn any person, no matter what they have done. This is despite the fact that we all must make moral choices in our lives and not always is there a clear division between good and evil. This is also bearing in mind that though the intention may be good and the actions may be good the actual result renders everything evil, and vice versa. Therefore I can be taken that I also would not condemn Treasure for shooting the animal. I am also trying to imagine what I would have done had I have been in his situation, under the stress of having to make such a decision, and without the cool contemplation and sense of emotional detachment which I now have, I might have done the exact same thing. I am guided by the principle that no matter what a person has done, no matter how bad, evil, depraved or heinous towards a fellow being, that same person has the capacity to do good and also make good of their thoughts and actions.

However... this neither justifies the action nor does it make it any better.

I am an animal lover, I especially love cats, indeed, some of my most successful emotional relationships in life have been with cats who have had the major advantage of not being human and also being able to understand me. I also love dogs, perhaps not as much, I also love horses, sheep, cows, in short animals in general.

I have had cats, but do not have a cat. This comes from the time when I was living in Warsaw, when Trotsky was stolen from the landing outside my apartment and then when the authorities refused to extend my artistic visa I had to give Widdecombe away and rehome her. This is where I came to the decision that cats need stability and until I can guarantee or provide a home and love and care for a cat for the rest of its natural life I will not form another relationship with a cat.

You see a cat, like a dog, is not a human being. I can enter into a relationship with another human being much easier than I can with an animal. Why? because the human being is independent, if the relationship fails or breaks down we can part company and everything works out in the end. However just like a child, an animal, whether it be a cat, a dog, or a Siamese pot-bellied pig is entirely dependent on me for its home and its welfare and this constitutes both a responsibility and commitment on my part. In the case of an animal that commitment is for the rest of its natural life. I am prepared to take in an animal on the same terms. I am prepared to look after and take care of an animal for a specified period agreed with its owner but I will always honour that commitment. The animal's welfare will always come first.

You see I entirely agree with what they write in the animal shelters - a pet or animal is for life. End of.

Therefore I am looking at the situation given in the OP, with two choices, neither of which I find personally acceptable and I'm thinking, 'how did this situation arise?' I'm also thinking, 'how long has this situation been continuing for?' I'm also thinking 'what is being done to prevent such a terrible situation and a terrible decision being made?' As there wasn't really much information on the thread concerning this, I am making my own assumptions here.

You see, just as I have the aforementioned view on keeping animals, based on a sense of personal responsibility, this also extends to who and what is accepted into my home. As it is my home I am responsible for deciding who or what crosses my threshold and under what circumstances.

But you know it's just like with children. You don't just keep having babies hoping for the best when it comes to their welfare and taking a chance that it all works out somehow. Can you imagine someone dumping a four year old child in someone else's neighbourhood because they cannot afford to keep the kid? You wouldn't take your child with asthma or diabetes out in the back and shoot him through the head with a 9mm just because of increased medical bills, would you? Would you take your 10 year old to a city 100 miles away and leave them in the hope that they would find a way of surviving?

Treasure and Firmhand, you both love children right? You would never do anything to harm them, right? But then again you both say the same on this thread about animals. So what's with the accepting of animals into your home under your responsibility and into your care, and to present us all here with the choices that you have presented to us here in the OP?

It's the exact same argument here, these animals are going into your home under your responsibility dependent on your care and the welfare you provide for them. Now you may claim that it's different because they're animals, but yet the relationship is the same and you are the same humans who are entering into that relationship. What is the value of your love for those animals?

Something to think about perhaps?




FirmhandKY -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/23/2009 11:06:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

...  I also would not condemn Treasure for shooting the animal.


A very wonderful response, Stella.  Thank you.

However....

I need to clarify that I do not nor have I ever shot an animal.  I personally find the idea appalling.  Once more for the record, this is a topic (both dumping and shooting) in which Firm and I disagree.

To answer your questions, Stella, Firm and I both do love children and animals.  The dogs that Firm "relocated" in years past were not his dogs or even dogs that he accepted responsibility for.  They were ones that people drove out into the country and abandoned near his home.  Firm's actions were not taken lightly and they weighed heavily on him.

I'll also reassert that this is not a current situation and that I'm fairly confident that should a similar situation arise, Firm will serious take my wishes into consideration.

Treasure
(accidentally signed in on Firm's account)  [8|]




GreedyTop -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/23/2009 11:26:46 PM)

Treasure..darlin'... but Firm DID say that he had used a 9mm pistol to shoot dogs he deemed unable to assimilate..

unless I read that post wrong.

*smooches to you both*




Hippiekinkster -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/23/2009 11:33:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Treasure..darlin'... but Firm DID say that he had used a 9mm pistol to shoot dogs he deemed unable to assimilate..

unless I read that post wrong.

*smooches to you both*

I don't understand why he just doesn't barbecue them. Free protein. /tasteless joke-sarcasm [8D]




KMsAngel -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/23/2009 11:38:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

The other concern is what happens to the natural order of things when another predator is introduced.  I believe  I saw a program on feral cats that are wreacking havoc in the Australian outback. 

Fucking cats. 


cats, dogs, foxes, rabbits, camels, brumbys (wild horses), cane toads... none of them here by natural selection, all of them imports. even goldfish and other introduced domestic fish species dumped in streams and rivers when the owners are tired of them.




stella41b -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/24/2009 2:28:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

To answer your questions, Stella, Firm and I both do love children and animals.



I never doubted this. How Firm arrives at many of his opinions might be beyond me, but I've always perceived both of you as people with heart.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Firm's actions were not taken lightly and they weighed heavily on him.



This too is consistent with what I thought. You think we'd have seen such an OP otherwise? That took guts. It really did, and if I didn't admire him before I admired him somewhat when I read the OP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I'll also reassert that this is not a current situation and that I'm fairly confident that should a similar situation arise, Firm will serious take my wishes into consideration.



I kind of figured that anyway. I didn't for one minute believe that this is something either of you would have done consistently.

I've done things in the past I'm not proud of and which would probably provoke a similar reaction. None of us are perfect, none of us. This was my prevalent thought when I read the thread.




Irishknight -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/24/2009 2:54:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Wirm, just for the record, it took balls to start this thread.  You knew what kind of heat you would take and did it anyway.  We will probably never agree on this issue but I figured someone should mention that.

I know that said Firm when I typed it .....  Twas not intentional.




TreasureKY -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/24/2009 2:18:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Treasure..darlin'... but Firm DID say that he had used a 9mm pistol to shoot dogs he deemed unable to assimilate..

unless I read that post wrong.

*smooches to you both*



Yeah, but several times in this thread it somehow shifted to me.   Firm found that very funny.   [:-]

*smooches back*  Oh, and congratulations, Mrs. Pirate!

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


... I've always perceived both of you as people with heart.


Thank you, Stella... and we've always had a soft spot in our hearts for you. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I know that said Firm when I typed it .....  Twas not intentional.


lol... We figured it wasn't, but it was funny.




GreedyTop -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/24/2009 2:47:15 PM)

thx Gorgeous!




Aylee -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/24/2009 4:48:57 PM)

You know, I think that maybe some of the outrage and anger would have been reduced if instead of re-dumping those strays, Firm had just said he "re-gifted" those strays. 




Vendaval -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/24/2009 4:55:11 PM)

Florida and Hawaii both have numerous non-native species of plants and animals that have been dumped into the natural habitat causing a whole host of problems.




TreasureKY -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/24/2009 10:31:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

You know, I think that maybe some of the outrage and anger would have been reduced if instead of re-dumping those strays, Firm had just said he "re-gifted" those strays.


lol... Maybe.  Then again, perhaps if he'd called it a redistribution of canine wealth program... [;)]




GreedyTop -> RE: "Dropping off" an animal ... (2/24/2009 10:40:11 PM)

*snort*




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