My fellow citizens scare me... (Full Version)

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Hippiekinkster -> My fellow citizens scare me... (2/22/2009 4:32:03 PM)

"Is it more logical to be a Christian? Is religion the natural choice of a smart person familiar with more of the evidence? Not according to a broad consensus of studies on IQ and religiosity. These studies have consistently found that the lower the IQ score, the more likely a person is to be religious"
http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligence%20&%20religion.htm

Even worse,
"Half of all Americans believe they are protected by guardian angels, one-fifth say they've heard God speak to them, one-quarter say they have witnessed miraculous healings, 16 percent say they've received one and 8 percent say they pray in tongues, according to a survey released Thursday by Baylor University."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/19/half-of-americans-believe-in-angels/

And, to top things off:
"Dr. Miller's data reveal some yawning gaps in basic knowledge. American adults in general do not understand what molecules are (other than that they are really small). Fewer than a third can identify DNA as a key to heredity. Only about 10 percent know what radiation is. One adult American in five thinks the Sun revolves around the Earth, an idea science had abandoned by the 17th century." http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/science/30profile.html?_r=5

Explain to me why Conservatives think cutting funds for education is "cutting out pork"? Oh, wait, they'll gladly fund idiotic pseudo-science like "Intelligent Design" but when it comes to real knowledge, they rant about taxes and Teacher's Unions and anything other than their own anti-knowledge bias, which seems to go hand-in-hand with religious fundamentalism of the Xtian variety.

Unbelievable. Our "Golden Age" of Education came right after Sputnik.




corysub -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 4:41:00 AM)

I guess Jeff Goldblum said it all:  "Be afraid, be very afraid"!
 
Thank God, I've got a guardian angel...




chiaThePet -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 6:42:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

"Is it more logical to be a Christian? Is religion the natural choice of a smart person familiar with more of the evidence? Not according to a broad consensus of studies on IQ and religiosity. These studies have consistently found that the lower the IQ score, the more likely a person is to be religious"


I consider myself to be Christian, yet I am far from religious.

Until the consensus gets that, it will never get me.

chia* (the pet)




StrangerThan -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 6:46:14 AM)

The truth is, everyone dies. A supporting truth to that one is that, Christians believe they have an afterlife and a place in it. A third truth in that line of reasoning is that you can't state they don't.

The final truth is that no matter how smart you are, all three above apply.




Sanity -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 6:50:44 AM)


Name one Democratic president or DNC presidential nominee who didn't or doesn't regularly attend church services.

Example - Barack claims to be a believer, "brother".

So are you saying the man is a total moron?




hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 6:59:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Name one Democratic president or DNC presidential nominee who didn't or doesn't regularly attend church services.

Example - Barack claims to be a believer, "brother".

So are you saying the man is a total moron?



No, just that he - like every Other politician - did his best to appeal to the least common denominator amongst US citizenry.  Whether they are or aren't religous of a given bent, or they're a complete atheist - politicians are painfully aware of the fact that they need the vote of that percentage who Strongly Believes that one particular book or another is "Gawd's Werd" and we'll all fry for eternity if we don't strictly believe it as absolute truth.




rexrgisformidoni -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 7:01:51 AM)

To each their own. If I want to believe in an afterlife, who cares. If I don't know about molecules, who cares.
And to be honest, in some extent I believe in intelligent design. However, I do believe god, or the flying spaghetti monster or whatever made the universe did not do it in a literal seven days. For all we know a day for who ever that is is billions or millions of years. Personally, I find studies like the one in your link revolting. Some of the most intelligent people I have ever known have been very religious people, and can accept that others believe different than they do. If that scares you, then I worry about your mental health. :)




thishereboi -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 7:02:15 AM)

So you believe Obama is lying when he says he is religous?




hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 7:13:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

So you believe Obama is lying when he says he is religous?


Not precisely.  I believe that whether he is or isn't is a moot point.  If he is - then he's likely not nearly as religious as he presents himself to the masses.  If he's as religious as he presents himself - then he's not nearly as smart as he presents himself, and simply has really good staff to bring up his appeal to the Rest of the population.
 
The point being - every politician Needs those votes, and Knows they need those votes - and is going to say what they think they need to say in order to Get those votes, whether it's true or not.  Then again - politicians telling the truth is a myth and fairy tale that has long been a standing joke.




kittinSol -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 7:38:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Name one Democratic president or DNC presidential nominee who didn't or doesn't regularly attend church services.

Example - Barack claims to be a believer, "brother".

So are you saying the man is a total moron?



We were talking about this just the other day: in America you have to be a Christian if you have political ambitions - how many Jews in government? How many Muslims? But more to the point: how many atheists or agnostics? Lack of belief appears to be highly suspicious: why is that?




YoursMistress -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 8:02:32 AM)

I think it's because people are scared of God, and think that if there was no God, they'd have nothing stopping them from doing whatever they wanted.  So, people are afraid of atheists because they feel that atheists have no moral compass and "nothing to lose."  An atheist might very well start a nucular (I miss W) war without a threat of punishment in the afterlife. 

yours




Termyn8or -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 8:25:39 AM)

fr

Molecules are really small, well damn I never thought I would learn so much !

I think as one grows, with a mind, but unfilled with knowledge, it looks for answers. Religion is one place to find them. Might not be the right answers, but answers noinetheless.

Populace wise, look at the people who find religion in later life. Drug addicts, alcoholics, abusive types and so forth. Abusive behavior, abuse of drugs, all that is childish behavior, some of us grow out of it, others need a leg up. Religion provides that.

It seems however, that because by nature religion is a dogma, they cease to learn anything else, and indeed they believe that they do not need to learn anything else.

So here we are.

T




DomKen -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 8:36:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Name one Democratic president or DNC presidential nominee who didn't or doesn't regularly attend church services.

Example - Barack claims to be a believer, "brother".

So are you saying the man is a total moron?



We were talking about this just the other day: in America you have to be a Christian if you have political ambitions - how many Jews in government? How many Muslims? But more to the point: how many atheists or agnostics? Lack of belief appears to be highly suspicious: why is that?

In many states their were laws on the books forbidding atheists and agnostics from holding any elective office. Only in 1961 were those laws ruled unconstitutional and many remain on the books. For instance:
http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assembly/2009/R/Pages/BillInformation.aspx?measureno=HJR1009




aravain -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 8:56:41 AM)

The only thing that really bothers me is your third point.

The first two... eh, it's a matter of faith. It's easier to find and feel faith if you're less apt to care about the why or how, or question. Likewise, faith can make you feel many, many different things which seem silly to other people.

It IS harder to have faith the more educated/informed you are (of any variety). However, if you have it, it's usually much stronger than it ever was before.

The third point, however, truly worries me.

(I didn't read any of the links, just giving observations based on what you presented)




UPSG -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 9:07:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Name one Democratic president or DNC presidential nominee who didn't or doesn't regularly attend church services.

Example - Barack claims to be a believer, "brother".

So are you saying the man is a total moron?



Good point.

Statistics can be used to prove whatever someone wants. I went to a Catholic high school were contrast and comparison essays were the norm for homework. Now, while there are some very excellent public high schools there are also some very terrible ones. I remember seeing the homework of one public school student that was at my same grade level and I quickly realized - with their par-excellent multiple choice questions - that if I went to that school I would have carried a 3.0 instead of the 1.9 or so I carried at my high school.

I've also taken IQ tests - courtesy of Marquette University (a Jesuit run university) - and I have scored at varying levels on the IQ test depending on the area of subject. In some areas I fall below the average or mean in other areas I don't. I'm in the upper percentile for vocabulary. So, what do IQ test exactly mean? Well I suppose they can be helpful tools but I also think people need to be careful from inferring to much from them.

As with White people coming from higher socio-economics and scoring higher than Black-Americans, could it be that the upper tiers of the science fields are predominated by people with no religious affiliation and due their economic and social class are better able to afford a combination of quality education and nurturing intellectual environments for their children?

Marquette University boasts one of the top dental schools in the nation (a field combining medicine and science to be applied to the improvement cosmetically and health wise, to people). The Jesuits once taught most the European nobility from Eastern Orthodoxy to Protestantism and basically joined the scholarly class in China. I might add for the OP, that the famed Jesuit "Reductions" in Latin America may arguably be the greatest societies ever created on earth. Tropical Utopians that accomplished something not even Detroit or the whole of the U.S. could: provide food and housing and medical care for all (Jesuits routinely vaccinated Amerindians for smallpox consequently increasing their populations).

The Jesuits themselves are better educated - above the U.S. mean - as whole than Americans and are essentially an international brotherhood that places fraternity above nationalism (note unlike U.S. public schools confined behind U.S. national boarders [an imaginary artificially made line I might add]  the Jesuits create schools all over the world).

Right up the street from me is Catholic run hospital. Many Christians have been scientists - think of Gregor Mendel the monk who's great work furthered understanding within evolution, think Galilieo Galilei who was a devote Catholic and a Third Order Franciscan, think of the Catholic Priest who taught at the prestigous MIT and came up with the theory of the Big Bang.

History is primarily fictionalized with bits of truth in it, for example, if I want to make Americans (more accurately United Statsians - because Peruvians and Brazilians are just as American as U.S. citizens) feel better about themselves I'll state historically that the U.S. became a democracy in 1776 rather than 1920 when women were given federally protected suffrage. If I want to make people and Christians in specific believe they have produced no cultural heritage to science and learning that I'll fuckin forget to emphasize the point that the Italian Renniassance was nurtured in Catholic culture and not Indonesian Islamic or Confuscious Chinese or Pagan Central African cultures. If I want make Columbus and the Catholic Church look bad, then I emphasize not only was Columbus a "Franciscan" (he was a Third Order Franciscan but a secular historian with little integrity will practice the timeless craft of disinformation when given the chance) and all the wrongs he committed.

The art of propaganda - as told by former craftsman on both the U.S. and German sides from WWII - is about emphasizing what are viewed as faults in one group and reducing complex issues down to simplicity and then repeat the meassage, repeat the message, repeat the message, repeat the message.

By the way, OP, I'm sure if I marked 1920 down on an IQ test as for when the U.S. became a democracy I would have that checked marked as incorrect.




Anarrus -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 9:21:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

The truth is, everyone dies. A supporting truth to that one is that, Christians believe they have an afterlife and a place in it. A third truth in that line of reasoning is that you can't state they don't.

The final truth is that no matter how smart you are, all three above apply.


Your reasoning is flawed simply because a belief is not a truth.  According to your logic my believing there is no life after death is equally as true as the Christian belief there is.   The jury's still out on both beliefs and neither can be called truths.




LaTigresse -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 9:22:03 AM)

People cause me to shake my head and roll my eyes all the time. They don't have to be religious, republican or democrats to do it.




StrangerThan -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 9:47:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

The truth is, everyone dies. A supporting truth to that one is that, Christians believe they have an afterlife and a place in it. A third truth in that line of reasoning is that you can't state they don't.

The final truth is that no matter how smart you are, all three above apply.


Your reasoning is flawed simply because a belief is not a truth.  According to your logic my believing there is no life after death is equally as true as the Christian belief there is.   The jury's still out on both beliefs and neither can be called truths.


I never said a belief was a truth. I said a truth is that Christians believe they have an afterlife. If you don't consider that a truth, I'll drop you in an evangelists tent somewhere so you can see its untruthfulness all night long.

If you want to mince words, at least mince them the right way.




NeedToUseYou -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 10:15:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

"Is it more logical to be a Christian? Is religion the natural choice of a smart person familiar with more of the evidence? Not according to a broad consensus of studies on IQ and religiosity. These studies have consistently found that the lower the IQ score, the more likely a person is to be religious"
http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligence%20&%20religion.htm

Even worse,
"Half of all Americans believe they are protected by guardian angels, one-fifth say they've heard God speak to them, one-quarter say they have witnessed miraculous healings, 16 percent say they've received one and 8 percent say they pray in tongues, according to a survey released Thursday by Baylor University."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/19/half-of-americans-believe-in-angels/

And, to top things off:
"Dr. Miller's data reveal some yawning gaps in basic knowledge. American adults in general do not understand what molecules are (other than that they are really small). Fewer than a third can identify DNA as a key to heredity. Only about 10 percent know what radiation is. One adult American in five thinks the Sun revolves around the Earth, an idea science had abandoned by the 17th century." http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/30/science/30profile.html?_r=5

Explain to me why Conservatives think cutting funds for education is "cutting out pork"? Oh, wait, they'll gladly fund idiotic pseudo-science like "Intelligent Design" but when it comes to real knowledge, they rant about taxes and Teacher's Unions and anything other than their own anti-knowledge bias, which seems to go hand-in-hand with religious fundamentalism of the Xtian variety.

Unbelievable. Our "Golden Age" of Education came right after Sputnik.


The problem with your reasoning in regards to education, is that all those basic fundamental pieces of knowledge are taught in every school in the US. Those basic pieces of knowledge would be readily collected by anyone interested in educating themselves outside of school as well. You could easily pick up all of the correct answers by watching 1 discovery channel documentary a week, or reading discover magazine every now and then. Those sources aren't exactly the peak of scientific  knowledge, however, point is anyone at all interested in learning, would have picked those little bits of knowledge up outside of school even. So, ultimately you can't really blame the education system, and that level of ignorance, as the only cause would be a total lack of interest in learning. So, money, will not fix that.

So, obviously the problem isn't primarily the facilities, or even teachers, the problem it would appear to me would be lack of interest in being educated. Thus dumping money at a kid who has no interest in learning, because he comes from a family of idiots will most likely fail, and we are truly growing to be a nation of people that select and wallow in their own selected ignorance.

While I agree adequately funded schools is a requirement for a public education based system, I don't think most of the problem, outside of horror story cases, is because of funding.

I mean access to information is more available now than any other point in history, realistically, once one learns to read, with the internet you could educate yourself completely if you wanted to.

Overall,my point  is that level of ignorance of basic facts taught by the 5-6th grade and readily available, is voluntary. One simply must not pursue learning at any level to remain that ignorant into adulthood.

So, it is ultimately a cultural issue, rather than a funding issue.








MasterShake69 -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 11:41:45 AM)

why would it be a moot point?  For you Obama believing in God would effect you opinion regarding his intellect.  If his decision making abilities were suspect wouldn't that effect your vote for him?   If he went to church and lied about his faith for sheer political motives wouldn't that also make you question his honesty?


quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

So you believe Obama is lying when he says he is religous?


Not precisely.  I believe that whether he is or isn't is a moot point.  If he is - then he's likely not nearly as religious as he presents himself to the masses.  If he's as religious as he presents himself - then he's not nearly as smart as he presents himself, and simply has really good staff to bring up his appeal to the Rest of the population.
 
The point being - every politician Needs those votes, and Knows they need those votes - and is going to say what they think they need to say in order to Get those votes, whether it's true or not.  Then again - politicians telling the truth is a myth and fairy tale that has long been a standing joke.




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