RE: My fellow citizens scare me...

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hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 5:23:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi So you believe Obama is lying when he says he is religous? Not precisely. I believe that whether he is or isn't is a moot point. If he is - then he's likely not nearly as religious as he presents himself to the masses. If he's as religious as he presents himself - then he's not nearly as smart as he presents himself, and simply has really good staff to bring up his appeal to the Rest of the population. The point being - every politician Needs those votes, and Knows they need those votes - and is going to say what they think they need to say in order to Get those votes, whether it's true or not. Then again - politicians telling the truth is a myth and fairy tale that has long been a standing joke. I see, so it's ok that he is lying because they all do it. Or maybe he is not lying and just stupid. So tell me, do you consider all religous people to be stupid or just the ones in office? I have Never said that it was OK for a politician to lie because they all do it. I detest all politicians - all of them lie, none of them can be trusted further than I could throw a battleship. I consider politicians to be a considerably lower life form than ameoba - not specifically "stupid" so much as - bottom feeding scumsuckers - religious, not religious, all of them. As for religion and religious people who are Not in politics - some are good, some are bad, some are simply inbred imbiciles - just like those who are not religious. I'm not, and never have been, big on organized religion. I consider it a means of control over the sheeple - regardless of the flavor someone happens to practice - with Almost no exception. (I say almost, because I've studied a LOT of religions, both conventional and non-conventional - and the Non-conventional haven't been nearly as bad about that, in my personal experience/study.)

kdsub -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 5:32:08 PM)
I think you are all missing the point...religion is learned not passed in the genes...so perhaps the scores are due to religious school systems not a measure of intelligence. Butch

aravain -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 5:58:09 PM)
Actually there was a study that showed that there it is a genetic tendency to believe in 'god,' inbred within us. It was in Time magazine (I read it at a doctor's office XD). I (like hisgeorgiapeach) tend to despise all forms of organized religion that involve more than 5 people in one group. I really don't like the idea of 'belonging' to something, religiously, personally, so maybe that's why?

Hippiekinkster -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 6:18:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire I'm actually okay for there to be so many stupid people in the world: It gives those of us who took the time to educate ourselves (thet means "book-lernin' to all yew rednecky, mavrick GOP'ers) to have a better shot at survival. Who's more likely to get the etter paying job? Someone like myself who can think on his feet... or some Bible thumping, I.D. taught moron who thinks the sun goes around the Earth? You go, religion! Do everything you can to take advantage of, and control over, ignorant people everywhere! Instill in them tennants and restrictions that will keep them in their place- scared of the wrath of some non-existant supernatural entity, should they get out of line! I don't want them getting all uppity and violent while my smarter-than-they brothers and myself take the cream of humanity's crop, and head to the stars. BTW, I'm sure the OP witheld the other statistic... the incidence of being ignorant, highly religious... and voting republican. Actually, there's a strong correlation with education, income, and voting Republican. You can guess which way the correlation goes, ja? [8D]

kittinSol -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 6:33:40 PM)
Fast reply: whoever said science was a belief system sees belief systems where they are not and is obviously blinded by their own belief. Science is the opposite of belief. Science is the search for knowledge; belief is the result of faith.

kdsub -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 6:48:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Fast reply: whoever said science was a belief system sees belief systems where they are not and is obviously blinded by their own belief. Science is the opposite of belief. Science is the search for knowledge; belief is the result of faith. No kittinSol...science is the measure of reality...science alone has no soul and can't explain the reason for that reality...So science has to believe in something from nothing...distance and time without a start or end... To me those are quite some beliefs no more or less provable then the existence of God. Butch

kittinSol -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 6:56:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub So science has to believe in something from nothing... (You are so wrong. Only a person can believe. A discipline has no belief..) Otherwise, science uses empirical evidence from physical observations of the physical world to elaborate scientific theories and conclusions. Religious belief derives from intuition and faith and has no ground in reality. It takes a leap of faith to call science 'a belief system' [8D] .

kdsub -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 7:08:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub So science has to believe in something from nothing... (You are so wrong. Only a person can believe. A discipline has no belief..) Otherwise, science uses empirical evidence from physical observations of the physical world to elaborate scientific theories and conclusions. Religious belief derives from intuition and faith and has no ground in reality. It takes a leap of faith to call science 'a belief system' [8D] . All science is based on a reality that they can't explain... and never will except by theory. Religion and science both are based on faith...Do you believe there was a start to reality? If so what was before?...do you believe the universe has a dimension ...if so what is one inch beyond that dimension… Science could very well be based on false assumptions that the knowledge as you call it support but still wrong…No different than the believe in God. I’m not defending God or science… I just understand both could be right or wrong and for now all we have are beliefs. There is no difference in knowledge based on a possible false assumption or religion they both take faith. Butch

scarlethiney -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 7:11:33 PM)
quote: The intent of the OP isn't really to shed any light on anything - it's simply to insult the people who hold religious beliefs. Sometimes, people show their own inner hatred and prejudices when they post. I think this is the case here. Firm No one can insult you unless you allow it. Yes Firm, "you" often show your own inner hatred and prejudice when you post. Amazing how the very thing you accuse others of is often the very thing you yourself are guilty of doing. [8\|]

MarsBonfire -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 7:12:02 PM)
Science is the opposite of belief. Science is skeptisisim, Theories are proposed, yes, but nothing is accepted until experiments are done to test the theory, and those experiments are independantly replicated. Even then, if a new theory comes along and explains the same phenomena in an even better way than before, the old theory is modified, or outright discarded. With belief, you are asked to believe something based only on the say so of an "authority." In fact, you make a deal with that authority to stop asking questions... (thus foresaking the greatest gift that "God" or nature has bestowed upon you: your intelligence.) ...and blindly believe whatever they tell you... you know, like gays are evil, creationisim is the only "truth" you need, or that you should strap explosives onto your body and set yourself off in a crowded area.... Oh, but I kid... We all know that the REAL religion to follow concerns a guy who was killed, rose up three days later, gave a nice speech, then was "taken up" in a blaze of special effects worthy of CE3K. And, if you believe in this blindly, you will only have to pay 10% of your total income to be allowed into the happy hunting ground where you can sit on a cloud, strum a harp, and oogle God with an almost sexual intensity... Hey, anything else is obviously false and ridiculous!

FirmhandKY -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 7:16:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub So science has to believe in something from nothing... (You are so wrong. Only a person can believe. A discipline has no belief..) Otherwise, science uses empirical evidence from physical observations of the physical world to elaborate scientific theories and conclusions. Religious belief derives from intuition and faith and has no ground in reality. It takes a leap of faith to call science 'a belief system' [8D] . So ... when was the last time you saw the Big Bang .... ? [:)] belief system (plural belief systems) 1. The basis on which beliefs are based. For example a religious belief system is based on faith and dogma whereas a scientific belief system is based on observation and reason. An interesting read: Aaron Davidson Philosophy of Science Science as a Belief System As humans we are born into this world without any preexisting knowledge about our universe. In order to cope and survive, we must make observations and draw conclusions from them. Without making observations and generalizations we cannot make sense of our surroundings. From birth, formulating a belief system is essential to our survival, and perhaps even to our consciousness. Although all that exists for the individual is one’s subjective experiences, an external objective reality must be assumed in order to function on a level beyond your average garden vegetable. Obviously there is an infinite set of beliefs one can believe in, but most would be nearly as useless as having no belief system at all. As belief systems grow in complexity, beyond simple common sense generalizations, these systems attempt to also explain and understand. Belief systems can be classified into two basic flavors: science and religion. What are the distinctions between a science and a religion? At first glance one might be inclined to state that a science is a system where beliefs are derived from objective methodologies and that a religion is a system of beliefs based on faith. However, a conscious entity practicing science can only draw on its subjective experiences to form beliefs. This means that no matter how objective science appears to be, there are generally two assumptions which musty be taken entirely on faith. 1) There exists an external objective reality 2) There exists some sort of uniformity through time a) the universe has structure b) predictions and generalizations are possible. Even though these assumptions exist in science it should be noted that as stated before, there is no way around them if we are to attempt to function without difficulty in this universe. Marvin Minsky (1985) has an interesting view of this problem. The limits to human knowledge are created when the questions being asked are circular. For example, asking what caused the universe is asking what causes a cause. This circularity indicates that the question is unanswerable by its very nature. Other than those assumptions which are absolutely necessary, science rejects assumptions of faith. Science is a belief system which aims to minimize faith. Religion, on the other hand, is a belief system based completely on faith. This is a satisfactory distinction, but I feel we can make the difference much clearer. ... You can read the rest of it. Pretty good article. I think your problem is you are confusing what a "belief system" is, and how science differs from most belief systems (religions, primarily), and you aren't really interested in understanding the difference. Firm

TreasureKY -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 7:45:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol It takes a leap of faith to call science 'a belief system' [8D] . No, it takes a leap of faith to believe in science. Along the lines of Firm's post, when is the last time you saw an atom? How about gravity? Ever been to the sun yourself to measure how hot it is? The list of questions could go on and on. Okay, so I suspect your response will be that some scientist somewhere has seen atoms or has measured them or done experiments to prove their existence... there is evidence and the eyewitness testimony of the scientist. Well guess what? By believing in their reports and evidence, you are taking a leap of faith that their methods were sound and results accurate. If another scientist duplicates the work and comes to the same result, by believing him, you're still taking another leap of faith. Unless you've personally duplicated the experiment and seen the results, firsthand, you are putting your faith in someone else's words. You are believing. I would hazard a guess that pretty much any religion will claim that somewhere, someone experienced firsthand the events that became the foundation of that religion. Most will say that others then experienced the same type of event. Those events were documented and passed on. Though you cannot duplicate history, there are people who will stand up and provide evidence for the results they have personally seen in their lives with regard to their religious beliefs. Face it, followers of religion are doing the same thing you do with science... they are making a leap of faith and taking the reporters at their word. Like religion, science is a belief system.

thishereboi -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 8:52:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire I'm actually okay for there to be so many stupid people in the world: It gives those of us who took the time to educate ourselves (thet means "book-lernin' to all yew rednecky, mavrick GOP'ers) to have a better shot at survival. Who's more likely to get the etter paying job? Someone like myself who can think on his feet... or some Bible thumping, I.D. taught moron who thinks the sun goes around the Earth? You go, religion! Do everything you can to take advantage of, and control over, ignorant people everywhere! Instill in them tennants and restrictions that will keep them in their place- scared of the wrath of some non-existant supernatural entity, should they get out of line! I don't want them getting all uppity and violent while my smarter-than-they brothers and myself take the cream of humanity's crop, and head to the stars. BTW, I'm sure the OP witheld the other statistic... the incidence of being ignorant, highly religious... and voting republican. While it's nice that you are educated, it's a shame no one taught you not to be so narrow minded. As far as I am concerned that is a lot worse and shows more about you than any degree could.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 9:35:13 PM)
http://www.theharbinger.org/articles/rel_sci/gottlie2.html "A: I think society is. You see, as I said in the discussion following Dr. Gruender's presentation last Thursday, I said to the people that you want to hear religion and science is like a bowl of cooked spaghetti where everything is intertwined, even though there may be some separate strands. And I can't say that, I can't give you what you want to hear. In the case of those exposed to fundamentalist religion: religion gets people in their first six, seven years of their lives, the most formative period of their lives and instills in them a certain mind-set. By the time we get them, we have to try to overcome belief systems and teach them how to think analytically. And it's very difficult, because they have been taught beliefs and faith are the equivalent of fact. In fact, after the first lecture of our program, I had students come up to me and tell me how they had been hurt educationally by going through the Alabama system without being taught evolution. When time came to where they have to compete against students from other regions of the country, they were ill-prepared. Yes, we face a deep problem in society. We have become more and more of a society that although we respect science and scientists, we still have adverse views of them. Just take a look at the decreasing number of Americans going into science and engineering. Many of their graduate schools have large number of international students. I don't mean to say it in a prejudiced way, I am reporting it as a fact. Are not a growing number of faculty in engineering and science coming from outside the United States who came here to purse academic studies, because Americans are not going into science and engineering? "

Hippiekinkster -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 9:41:55 PM)
And herein is yet another reason why some people scare me. They truly cannot distinguish between superstition and analytical thinking. Treasure asked, "when is the last time you've seen an atom?" Well, point in fact, atoms have been imaged. Gravity can be measured. The temp of the sun can be measured. The fact that galaxies are moving away from us can be measured. See, they have this very powerful tool called "mathematics". Maybe some of you have heard of it. I doubt very many of you at all have had anything past calculus. Believe me, there are ways to deduce things by the application of, say, Fourier Transform, to data sets (like acoustic spectra) "When is the last time you saw sound?" hahahaha no, not when you were tripping. See what a completely foolish question this is?

DomKen -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 9:44:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY So ... when was the last time you saw the Big Bang .... ? [:)] Every second of every day we all see the Big Bang. The universe was once very small and very hot. The universe then began to expand. That process continues to this day.

MasterShake69 -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 9:48:11 PM)
You can be Jewish and run. What person who wasn't Christian has been prevented from running? who is this great potential candidate that we are missing? quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol No. It would confirm that the person in question is a politician. But I repeat that in my mind, it's terribly sad that so much of the electorate seems to demand that political leaders be christian. We saw what 'christianity' meant for the politician in chief this last presidency [8\|] .

FirmhandKY -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 9:49:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster And herein is yet another reason why some people scare me. They truly cannot distinguish between superstition and analytical thinking. Treasure asked, "when is the last time you've seen an atom?" Well, point in fact, atoms have been imaged. Gravity can be measured. The temp of the sun can be measured. The fact that galaxies are moving away from us can be measured. See, they have this very powerful tool called "mathematics". Maybe some of you have heard of it. I doubt very many of you at all have had anything past calculus. Believe me, there are ways to deduce things by the application of, say, Fourier Transform, to data sets (like acoustic spectra) "When is the last time you saw sound?" hahahaha no, not when you were tripping. See what a completely foolish question this is? So it is your opinion that science isn't a belief system? Firm

MasterShake69 -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 9:53:10 PM)
yes i know. i would rather quote all previous posts but ive been getting emails saying to trim down the quotes or else. quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol We were talking about this just the other day: in America you have to be a Christian if you have political ambitions - how many Jews in government? How many Muslims? But more to the point: how many atheists or agnostics? Lack of belief appears to be highly suspicious: why is that? (You need to work at the quote function.)

Hippiekinkster -> RE: My fellow citizens scare me... (2/23/2009 9:57:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster And herein is yet another reason why some people scare me. They truly cannot distinguish between superstition and analytical thinking. Treasure asked, "when is the last time you've seen an atom?" Well, point in fact, atoms have been imaged. Gravity can be measured. The temp of the sun can be measured. The fact that galaxies are moving away from us can be measured. See, they have this very powerful tool called "mathematics". Maybe some of you have heard of it. I doubt very many of you at all have had anything past calculus. Believe me, there are ways to deduce things by the application of, say, Fourier Transform, to data sets (like acoustic spectra) "When is the last time you saw sound?" hahahaha no, not when you were tripping. See what a completely foolish question this is? So it is your opinion that science isn't a belief system? Firm Opinion? As a former scientist, I practiced chemistry. I didn't have to "believe" that I could, say, titrate for calcium and magnesium using EDTA and Eriochrome Black T as an indicator. It was a fact. That's what Science is. It is a technique for determining what is factual and what is not. Do lawyers "believe" in evidence? of course not. It either exists or it does not. The very fact that you argue that Science is some sort of "belief system" that is somehow equivalent to "In the beginning, it was really dark. Then some big Kozmic Spook turned on the light" tells me you really have no understanding of what Science is, even though you may think you do. You are as wrong about what you think Science is as you are about dumping animals out in the void.

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