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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 9:22:53 AM

Coldwarrior57

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

again, you are complaining about what is 'wrong' with higher taxes. I am asking for an alternative plan.

this is why.

http://www.juntosociety.com/patriotism/inytg.html

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 9:26:01 AM

BoiJen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

See that's how feel. The people who seem to be against higher taxes are people who are wealthy or well off. But isn't there any concern in righting the economy?

Stop looking for a hand out. That's all the Government has ever show itself capable of delivering. Handouts for votes. In fact our Government has made big money by promoting social discord. In their attempt to isolate groups or classes from one another they have promoted contempt.

You say that the wealthy are happy as it is. Well while they might be more comfortable at the moment I doubt their happy. Everyone should be against higher taxes when the money is spent poorly. The problem with the economy isn't the social classes or the Government. It's the lack of community pride. When I was a kid the business owner held a kinship with his employees, they took care of each other, for the most part each stood happy as the man he was. The fact is that if the taxes are high and the Government dictates who is the boss it will never be you, the one complaining. The US is set up for the motivated to have a chance. If a man is worth his salt a chance is all he needs and all he would ask for. Watch your greed factor and take care of your own people as opposed to leaving them to social programs and your company will be prosperous.

It always seems to go back to the master and slave morality. Are you making your own way or waiting to be taken care of.

Bull I happen to agree with you about how businesses are run these days. Unions are out of control. AND unions wouldn't be needed if a business owner were responsible and held that "kinship" with his employees that you speak of. That's not what's happened. And our economy has suffered greatly. Many men (gender neutral) aren't getting a chance or are having the chance that they ran with taken out from under them.

How does this get fixed? And if the government's role is not to run business, what is it's role for struggling citizens who are looking for that chance (not just waiting for the chance to happen)?

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 9:28:20 AM

Coldwarrior57

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57

mcdonalds is a great job for a teenager.
but if that is how you plan to support yourself, then you have failed yourself.
Are things tough Yes, dont think/beleive that you are the first ever to have hard times befall you.
you get bumps scraps and scars from life, if you think that it is supposed to be a ride on a pillow. guess again.

Nothing about unemployment is a "pillow ride" people pay into the unemployment system for years. And what I was saying about McDonald's is that many many people have been turned down for jobs that they have trained for their entire careers because the jobs just aren't there...so they resort to any kind of work available...expect work isn't readily available. Have you tried looking for a job lately?

ok you look like s young woman. are you in school?
for the exercise lets say you are a student.
you get good grades because you study and work hard at your classes.
there is another student that just shows up every once in a while, does not particiate in class goes out dinking or what ever.
grades come out, and you get an A this person gets a D or F,
is it fair that the teacher takes your grade from an A to a C to lift up the F to a C?
this is a simple yes or no question.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 9:33:17 AM

Dnomyar

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Unions are out of control. Get a life. The banks are not unionized. The pork barrel congressmen arent not unionized. If not for the unions a lot of people would still be making third world wages.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 9:34:42 AM

BoiJen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57

mcdonalds is a great job for a teenager.
but if that is how you plan to support yourself, then you have failed yourself.
Are things tough Yes, dont think/beleive that you are the first ever to have hard times befall you.
you get bumps scraps and scars from life, if you think that it is supposed to be a ride on a pillow. guess again.

Nothing about unemployment is a "pillow ride" people pay into the unemployment system for years. And what I was saying about McDonald's is that many many people have been turned down for jobs that they have trained for their entire careers because the jobs just aren't there...so they resort to any kind of work available...expect work isn't readily available. Have you tried looking for a job lately?

ok you look like s young woman. are you in school?
for the exercise lets say you are a student.
you get good grades because you study and work hard at your classes.
there is another student that just shows up every once in a while, does not particiate in class goes out dinking or what ever.
grades come out, and you get an A this person gets a D or F,
is it fair that the teacher takes your grade from an A to a C to lift up the F to a C?
this is a simple yes or no question.

Let's go with this. I say No it's not.

Here's why and here's what works...I'd be happy to spend my time helping the other student study to balance the party life.

The problem here is that you're equating the unemployed to careless party goers who aren't even trying to earn their way through. That's just not the case. I know scores of people (thank you Detroit) who have worked hard through their entire careers and are good at what they do and have lost their jobs and are immediately went out looking for work again. Should they be left behind to loose their homes because the jobs aren't there? Should their efforts not be rewarded rather punished because of the actions of others?

If people are looking for work, which the majority on unemployment are, why should they receive unemployment benefits? They've paid their taxes honestly for years. They've paid into unemployment for years. Why do you just assume that people who are out of work are bums?

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 9:37:39 AM

paul12000

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Here's a thought.. There was an article in the paper sometime back that I read that some tax cuts plans will put a whopping $15/wk into our pockets. I listen to a show called Neal Boortz. His idea is the fair tax plan. We eliminate all forms of taxes that is coming out from whatever. Now, this means, no one is paying taxes out of their checks. What the gross says, we get. For myself, that means another $100 to 150/wk into my pockets to do whatever it is I want. Now I go to the grocery store. The price tag on the shelf usually counts for all sorts of hidden taxes. It is known to be an average of about 20-25%. Remember, now we are paying taxes no where else, we can sell an item at base retail price. So, if a machine costs $100 dollars to make, it can make it to the store at $100. Now add the average tax that is usually hidden anyways. Now the price of the item is $125. .The end. The tax got added at the shelf, and anyone who had bought the item, just paid their fair share of the tax. Part of the plan is that heads of household would get abit back every month for living expenses, this would alleviate having to fill out all sorts of forms every year and get all confused and worried about some stupid deadline.

The wealthy and the poor alike would benefit from this plan. The wealthy can actually hire more people to pay, cause they won't get taxed to death by people like Obama and his crew. If the wealthy get expected to get taxed heavily, than they are gonna horde their money, cut corners where they can, etc. just to be able to pay off these taxes. These taxes then will end up going to some body at the very bottom of the barrel who isn't working, cause they don't want to. I know some scam off the government constantly, cause they know the loop holes to get extra cash from Uncle Sam, without lifting a finger for it. Sad really, when news reporters are finding people who are actually going on trips and are happy to be not working this day and age. (This is what I get for listening to political talk shows.)

I personally am against raising of taxes. I need the wealthy people I work for be able to pay me, instead of Obama for the work I do. If Obama gets more of the money I'm trying to work for, I'm going to end up like so many other people who are starting to suffer. There is a thing called Bankruptcy. If companies are going under, let them. This will eventually leave room for the companies who are thriving to expand and fill in the voids that will be created in the process. That is my thought on this matter.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 9:39:37 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

I didn't ask what was wrong with paying higher taxes. I asked if you had a better idea.

The common sense premise that you start with is that politicians will do what is right...and that, unfortunately, is not the case. Everyone is downsizing, laying off people, not hiring as people leave or retire, except the U.S. Government. That payroll continues to grow and, I believe, is the only segment of the "economy" that is showing any meaningful employment growth other than healthcare.

Over 20 years ago President Reagan commissioned Peter Grace, a well known businessman at the time, to form a group to study the government and where cuts might be made. The report came back that government waste probably accounted for 1/3 of the total. I've posted on this in other threads...but after the report came out it died in the cubicles of the bureacracy, Congress had no desire to cut jobs or spending, the source of "power". Power is the core of a politicans heart, and you only truly have power if you control money...and lots of money = lots of power. And when you can write checks for "trillions of dollars"..you have absolute power!

All these pompous asses in the House or Representatives calling for a "stress test" on banks should have to go through a "stress test" on their legislation...real transparency, and not the BS we are getting these days. Congress passed a so called "Stimulus Bill"..really the democrat party did since only 3 of 535 members were republican who voted for it, that is a sham, and the fact that still in polls on the streets 50% or so that approve of this spending bill is truly an indictment of the educational system in America. We could save hundreds of billions of dollars by just cutting out the waste in government, before we build new bridges named after the leech that pushed it in the bill.

Old D.C. Joke: A fellow walks into one of the giant government offices filled with hundreds of cubicles and is amazed at the number of people there. He asks the
receptionist how many people worked in that office. She gave her standard reply..50%!
http://www.uhuh.com/taxstuff/gracecom.htm

Pretty funny but again...no sale. Grace was not even allowed into the Pentagon or the CIA or even into our foreign services budget and the scewered 1/3 saving turns into about 1/6 or less. Where were you cory when from 2000-2006 when a completely repub vertically integrated govt. was spending and borrowing money like drunken sailors complete with 10's of 1000's of earmarks (pork) ?

Where were you when from 2000-2004 Bush became only the SECOND president in our entire history NOT to veto a SINGLE bill ? That's NOT a SINGLE bill.

I am thinking you didn't care or write a word because...they were repubs.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 9:42:11 AM

rednicky

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No cold. but that is a faulty comparison and an unfair analogy. A classroom is a group of independent individuals who do not need one another to exist as a student. The United Sates is not one big class room. And one cannot be successful without the help of others. Even if you are filthy rich, if you are selling a house, it's only worth the amount that people are willing to pay. And if everyone around you is poor, it's not going to be worth very much. That's why we are currently in a buyers market. Houses are cheap because no one can afford to pay the prices they would normally be worth. Who loses out on that? The seller. So, for the sake of the economy, it WOULD make sense to lower my A to a C in order to help those around me. It wouldn't be about charitably. it would be about making an investment in your fellow citizens for the sake of YOUR bank account. At least that's how I feel.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 9:42:17 AM

RealSub58

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City property taxes are assessed for the education of children, the salary of teachers and the mayor's salary.The mayor is presently being prosecuted for seducing children .....Several teachers have been recently prosecuted for seducing children . . . The educational quality changes from school to school .....I have never had children and if I did I would home school them.Which leads me to my final point, home schooled children's parents pay taxes for their children to be educated in "the" system. I pay taxes for this?? "I learn by going where I have to go." ~~ Theodore Roethke from "The Waking"

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 9:43:23 AM

Coldwarrior57

Posts: 297
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57

mcdonalds is a great job for a teenager.
but if that is how you plan to support yourself, then you have failed yourself.
Are things tough Yes, dont think/beleive that you are the first ever to have hard times befall you.
you get bumps scraps and scars from life, if you think that it is supposed to be a ride on a pillow. guess again.

Nothing about unemployment is a "pillow ride" people pay into the unemployment system for years. And what I was saying about McDonald's is that many many people have been turned down for jobs that they have trained for their entire careers because the jobs just aren't there...so they resort to any kind of work available...expect work isn't readily available. Have you tried looking for a job lately?

ok you look like s young woman. are you in school?
for the exercise lets say you are a student.
you get good grades because you study and work hard at your classes.
there is another student that just shows up every once in a while, does not particiate in class goes out dinking or what ever.
grades come out, and you get an A this person gets a D or F,
is it fair that the teacher takes your grade from an A to a C to lift up the F to a C?
this is a simple yes or no question.

Let's go with this. I say No it's not.

Here's why and here's what works...I'd be happy to spend my time helping the other student study to balance the party life.
That wasnt the question. would you give away half your gpa to some one that didnt work as hard as you ?

The problem here is that you're equating the unemployed to careless party goers who aren't even trying to earn their way through. ( yes I am )
That's just not the case. ( not in every case I agree)
I know scores of people (thank you Detroit) who have worked hard through their entire careers and are good at what they do and have lost their jobs and are immediately went out looking for work again. Should they be left behind to loose their homes because the jobs aren't there? Should their efforts not be rewarded rather punished because of the actions of others?
I hate to break it to you , life is not fair. its hard and cruel and you cant make it a cake walk .
Should there be help YES, should it come from the federal gov FUCK NO.

If people are looking for work, which the majority on unemployment are, why should they receive unemployment benefits? They've paid their taxes honestly for years. They've paid into unemployment for years. and when it runs out it runs out.
Why do you just assume that people who are out of work are bums? Your words not mine.

_____________________________

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 9:51:00 AM

servantforuse

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For those out there who think we do not pay enough in taxes already.. Does anyone know what "tax freedom day" is? It is the date that gets a little farther into each year when we have paid our fair share each year. In 2008 that date was April 23rd. It takes nearly 4 months before we can keep our first dime. How much longer until that day is well into May and possibly June??

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 9:54:09 AM

xBullx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

lol you keep telling me what is wrong with higher taxes. xbullx. Tell me a BETTER plan since making taxes higher seems to not be good enough for so many.

The answer as I see it isn't all that hard to discern from my comments. Your success is either within you or it is not, if it's not have a strong résumé and an ability to interview well.
But a little advice to our Government would be to better allocate their present funding and invest it into the important areas of our country. If they invest those tax dollars well they produce more taxes without raising the rate. A strong Military has multiple effects; it provides for defense, it provides a recycle of funds in the system. There are the obvious effects such as payroll, arms purchases, civilian staffing, base construction and maintenance. It has always been one of the best sources of technological advancement, hence inspiring even more economic avenues as well as keeping America at the cutting edge of society.
Then there is the infrastructure that is necessary for all economic stability, the construction and commodity use in the development of this is only a slight factor in the monetary importance of good roads and bridges, rail and air travel.
Then there is the domestic management segment of society, proper employment of laws and personal here could actually save money and better the service.
I was responsible for a significant government budget when I was in the service; I watched and participated in the forced implementation of financial waste. As is the case with nearly all government agencies you get your budget for the year to come if you did not spend all your money the year before you get less in the next calendar year. Most know that their expenses can be higher the next year so they have what they call year end expenditures. That means hurry and buy shit whether you need it or not, just make it look justifiable. The Governments fiscal year begins 1 October. Just eves drop on a meeting or two in late August I’ll bet we could pay Obama’s stim pack in 5 years or less if we just did better to promote better government agency spending.

In the end you either provide for yourself or find someone to take care of you. No system is perfect, but the capitalist system at least mimics nature by rewarding effort, ability and success; it has never rewarded mediocrity or appathy.

Loosing your optimism and waiting for someone other than yourself to fix that which ails you is no different than surrendering to the collar...............You may KNEEL.

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I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 9:55:49 AM

rednicky

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Soo...it's the peoples' fault? is that it bull? you're either successful or you not and if your not, it's your own fault?

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 9:58:54 AM

BoiJen

Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Coldwarrior57
Let's go with this. I say No it's not.

Here's why and here's what works...I'd be happy to spend my time helping the other student study to balance the party life.
That wasnt the question. would you give away half your gpa to some one that didnt work as hard as you ?

The problem here is that you're equating the unemployed to careless party goers who aren't even trying to earn their way through. ( yes I am )
That's just not the case. ( not in every case I agree)
I know scores of people (thank you Detroit) who have worked hard through their entire careers and are good at what they do and have lost their jobs and are immediately went out looking for work again. Should they be left behind to loose their homes because the jobs aren't there? Should their efforts not be rewarded rather punished because of the actions of others?
I hate to break it to you , life is not fair. its hard and cruel and you cant make it a cake walk .
Should there be help YES, should it come from the federal gov FUCK NO.

If people are looking for work, which the majority on unemployment are, why should they receive unemployment benefits? They've paid their taxes honestly for years. They've paid into unemployment for years. and when it runs out it runs out.
Why do you just assume that people who are out of work are bums? Your words not mine.

No I would not give half my GPA to someone who does not work as hard as I do. I would give away half my GPA to someone who worked just as hard and did not receive the same grad as I did for whatever reason. (Just so that we're clear, because everyone isn't paid the same amount, getting a different grade for the same amount of work would be the equivalent of what we're talking about)

And in MOST cases of those unemployed, they are looking for work. Ask the thousands of employees who lost their jobs last month. Ask them what they're doing now because unemployment doesn't cover even half of what they made while they were working. You seem to think for some reason that people are just trying to get one over on the system for free, rather than just trying to get by with a little help until they can get by on their own.

Have you ever had to use unemployment at all? Have you lost your job or are you in retirement?

And if not the Fed, then who? Cuz frankly I'm tired of paying taxes to spent without my input. I want to be able to say x amount goes here, z amount goes there, etc etc etc. And until I can do that when I go to vote, I expect the people voting for me on these things will have my back as much as the back of my neighbors...working or not. Because that's their JOB.

BTW part-time workers also pay into unemployment and don't get to see a penny of it. Many people don't see a lot of what they pay into unemployment when they get different jobs. When it runs out, they have yet to actually get back what they've put into the system.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:04:45 AM

xBullx

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Hi Jen,

The chances are out there, we might need a better education or a bit more cunning in our approach but if you want it, it's there. We might have to start at the bottom and learn to excel, it's not ever been or going to be easy to fight the uphill climb to success. But I'll bet you want it bad enough to sacrifice.

Look around you'll see those that have done it and I promise it wasn't easy, they just got good at it so like the pro ball player they make it look easy. But do something better than then many do nowadays, take care of your people, and hold them to standards equal to what you hold yourself. Teach them to be better than they thought they could be hell even if they excel and strike out on their own they are now your inspiration to be better than you were. The cycle of life should have a top, it should be a cycle. Ride it or skin your elbows and knees trying.

I'm doing it and these principles have paid off several times again. And not just in business.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:05:03 AM

paul12000

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quote:

I would give away half my GPA to someone who worked just as hard and did not receive the same grad as I did for whatever reason. (Just so that we're clear, because everyone isn't paid the same amount, getting a different grade for the same amount of work would be the equivalent of what we're talking about)

I see, so if I worked my butt off, and still don't get it, and may never will for some unexplicable reason, you'd give me half your grade. Well, thank you for that extra boost I will need to get that job I will never properly qualify for, cause my grades were as good as yours, because I could never figure out that most important part of the job I would need to know.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:13:00 AM

BoiJen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Hi Jen,

The chances are out there, we might need a better education or a bit more cunning in our approach but if you want it, it's there. We might have to start at the bottom and learn to excel, it's not ever been or going to be easy to fight the uphill climb to success. But I'll bet you want it bad enough to sacrifice.

Look around you'll see those that have done it and I promise it wasn't easy, they just got good at it so like the pro ball player they make it look easy. But do something better than then many do nowadays, take care of your people, and hold them to standards equal to what you hold yourself. Teach them to be better than they thought they could be hell even if they excel and strike out on their own they are now your inspiration to be better than you were. The cycle of life should have a top, it should be a cycle. Ride it or skin your elbows and knees trying.

I'm doing it and these principles have paid off several times again. And not just in business.

So, how does that work for the millions now of unemployed looking for work while those guys in suits sit back and watch their numbers change...good or bad all they're doing is watching their numbers. They've scrapped enough away from that guy who's busting his ass for them that he can't live, but he's replaceable. They all are. We all are.

Now don't get me wrong. I've decided to go into a field with endless possibilities and endless need, mental health. I'll make plenty of money when I get done with school. I'm all about finding what you do best and making that work for you. That's the way to make the cycle work. But the chance are dwindling, and for people who specialize in their fields, they don't always have a chance to recover as quickly. We know they're hard working. We know they want to work, but how many book keepers do you need when small businesses are failing and no one is spending?

I'm not about handouts to lazy fuckers trying to get by on the system. Don't get me wrong. I have a big problem with those types. I'm about giving the help needed when a responsible person says "hey...this is what I need. In the meantime this is what I'm doing to fix my situation so that I don't need your help anymore. Can you help me out?" which is how (at least my understanding) most unemployment programs work. You have to report what you've been doing to find work every time you report for benefits.

Do we let them as individuals fail and not provide the help that we seem to able to provide other countries? (I know...another big issue but it's a fact...we've been paying into the infrastructure of other countries for years)

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:13:35 AM

MichiganHeadmast

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Taxes are a disincentive to production. Lower taxes to single digits, flatten them, remove all deductions, and let the economy work. Government provides for common defense otherwise stays out of the way. Private charities provide a safety net. It has worked well before.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:17:34 AM

xBullx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

Soo...it's the peoples' fault? is that it bull? you're either successful or you not and if your not, it's your own fault?

Now you're catching on....

You have to look in the mirrior first, find what you can do better before you mess in someone elses kitchen.

The government is never the answer, they never care about the single individual, never. Well unless it furthers their political leverage and that is still a superficial compassion.

I came from a lower middle class income family. My father and mother taught us to be hard working and thrifty. Upon graduation I started in the military, it taught me added discipline and try. The service promoted that never surrender and to always search for opportunity attitude. When I got out of the service the family business thing turned out rather bad. So I had to prove myself to those that mattered. A private man, not family, not government seen promise in me, he co-signed a 30 thousand dollar note for me. I love this man for the chance he afforded me and I promised I wouldn't disappoint him. I haven't.

I return this favor for promising men now as well. This nation was built by men (gender neutral) not a Government.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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Post #: 39

RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:17:34 AM

BoiJen

Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paul12000

quote:

I would give away half my GPA to someone who worked just as hard and did not receive the same grad as I did for whatever reason. (Just so that we're clear, because everyone isn't paid the same amount, getting a different grade for the same amount of work would be the equivalent of what we're talking about)

I see, so if I worked my butt off, and still don't get it, and may never will for some inexplicable reason, you'd give me half your grade. Well, thank you for that extra boost I will need to get that job I will never properly qualify for, cause my grades were as good as yours, because I could never figure out that most important part of the job I would need to know.

You have one class out how many that you just don't get. Say, psych stats. Unless you're going to go be a researcher (which you will need more math than that), you're not going to actually need stats in your field of work (if your major is psych). The majority of students who struggle with an overall subject don't look for work in that field. They change their major. Whether they have the grades or not. If they struggle then they go somewhere else.

I'm not changing my answer. I believe that compassion is the balance to capitalism. When someone honestly needs help, you give it. I return everyone thrives.

(in reply to paul12000)

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Post #: 40