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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:20:36 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		There is a class of citizens who don`t pay or want to pay their bills.They also tend to run up any credit cards they get and are hell bent on maxing them out,with no intention of paying them off.

The kinds of citizens who don`t want to pay taxes, are basically the same type as the free-loading,lazy shifty type described above.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/24/2009 10:23:32 AM >

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:23:11 AM   
CruelandKind


Posts: 3
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline 		America is the land of opportunity because it is not a socialistic system (although it soon will be). Whenever any country switches from a solid financial foundation based money system such as gold and silver to a credit based system you then put the control of the monitary system intot he hands of the Bankers. The Federal Reserve system is a conglomerate of 12 major banks. If you watch CNN you can see that whenever the Fed Reserve does something it goes to Congress and TELLS congress what it does. Congress does not have any control over the privately owned Federal Reserve.

In addition to that, when a president wants money the Feds just enter in a line in a computer and Volia, money is then created. That number is then backed by Federal Reserve Credit Notes, (not real Dollars) that are printed byt he Treasury and sold to the Private Fed Reserve Banks. The money value is based upon the fact that the Federal Govt has taken away your rights and turned you into a 14th amendment citizen... This occured back in 1933 by Franklin D Rosevelt.

My next argument is since when has the government EVER fixed anything? All they do is take your money and give it to the the other rich friends keeping you in a state of servatude to the state. By manipulating the financial market and creating a crisis (in this case a world crisis) the powers that be can manipulate the people into giving up their rights and freedoms for promises to be saved!

And your comment about it being the people's fault? That is totally true... when people found that it was easier to have the government be responsible for their lives, the more lazy they became, this is the Liberal agenda (or should I now say the political agenda). Have you ever wondered why Law is not based upon statute and not Constitution? It is because you are a member of the "Corporation called United States of America" it is incorporated in Deleware. Since you are no longer a sovreign in your own country nd you are now considered a asset of the corporation you no longer fall under the umbrella of the consititution... therefore you are only allowed to have corporate law which is statute law.... YOU GAVE UP YOUR RIGHTS LONG AGO BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE COMPLACENT AND WANTED THE GOVERNMENT TO TAKE CARE OF THEM RATHER THAN BEING SELF RELIANT AND RESPONSIBLE. Everything is now contract law... civil as well as criminal.

need more proof? Google "the creature from jeakle Island" and listen to it. The deed to your house is nothing more than the government allowing you to have control of your house, it is not yours. The same with a drivers license and title to your car. The Govt. owns it and allows you to use it. There is NO LAW on record or code that is supported by law that says you have to pay taxes from your labour. The usual argument is the 16th amendment, but if you read it over you will find that the 16th amendment does not give any additional authority to the gov to tax your labour.... Only the corporation Govt can do that and since you are a citizen of the corporation they have jurisdiction over you.

When you have banks controlling the money, they create depressions and recessions over and over in order to take your labour and freedom. Now we have an international monitary crisis... just watch what happens in the end... you will see how we lose more and more rights and freedoms in the end when Govts save us... NOT!

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:23:12 AM   
rednicky


Posts: 313
Joined: 1/14/2009
Status: offline 		Well boiJen, while your conclusion makes sense, your incentives that lead you to that conclusion seem to be a bit unrealistic. You want to pay higher taxes for compassions sake. You can't expect everyone to have compassion for our fellow man. I was leaning more towards the "common sense" route. Whether we like it or not, the US is a community and everyone relies on one another whether they like it or not. If the community struggles, you struggle. So wouldn't it make sense to help the community for ones own sake? Even if it means paying higher taxes?

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:26:15 AM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Unions are out of control. Get a life. The banks are not unionized. The pork barrel congressmen arent not unionized. If not for the unions a lot of people would still be making third world wages.


One could also argue that "because" of the extreme power of some unions people ARE out of work because there jobs are being done in third world countries with a much cheaper cost of labor. 

Unions did a lot of wonderful and necessary things for workers. Unions also did a lot of criminal things to workers...from teamsters who incurred the wrath of Bobby Kennedy to the ILGWU that abandoned it's people in New York when cheap immigrant labor dwindled and the garment center moved first to the southern states, and than out of the States to Mexico, Central America, and now Asia.  There is no valid reason for the Japanese steel companies to be so competitive other than the cost of U.S. labor became prohibitive, modernization was slowed, and a product with plentyful raw materials and endless coal supplies nearby...lost competitive advantage to mills 6,000 miles away. Our shippyards are closed and Korea and Japan dominate large shippbuilding. The printers union in NYC where I grew up literally killed the newspaper industry there decades ago with great papaer like the Journal America, Herald Tribune, Daily Mirror, World Telegram & Sun and others forced to close. The unions killed the waterfront jobs, entry level for so many people and jobs that put a roof over the heads of and food on the table for families because the "unions"  fought containerization.  And now the business is in NJ, Pennsylania and Maryland.

Today, we see the unfettered power of the UAW dictating to the President of the United States!  On the one hand you had terribly bad management that designed cars people did not want and provided service that was horrible...and coupled with the ludicrous union demands when times were good...we may all wind up owning a piece of a bankrupt General Motors or Chrysler. Oh..and great news...politicians and EPA bureaucrats are going to design the cars.  50 mpg, 100/mpg  heck I don't know where those mandated miles per gallon are going to stop.

And now the killer.  In the midst of a terrible recession, with companies fighting to stay alive (read jobs here), we have a government that will probably be passing legislation to take away a workers "right" to a secret ballot as to whether a union should be authorized.  That's really going to help the workers when those jobs move out too!  The union bosses "know" about globalization but they don't seem to "understand" about globalization.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:29:13 AM   
masterdave48161


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Status: offline 		How is it that paying more taxes helps to right the economy?

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:29:50 AM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		One could argue that,but they`ed be full of shit.

Management,both private and governmental, caused our present,avoidable situation.

Not the unions.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/24/2009 10:42:03 AM >

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:36:05 AM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

So, how does that work for the millions now of unemployed looking for work while those guys in suits sit back and watch their numbers change...good or bad all they're doing is watching their numbers. They've scrapped enough away from that guy who's busting his ass for them that he can't live, but he's replaceable. They all are. We all are.



We are surely at the crappy side of the cycle and I do believe that hand ups are a necassary evil at this point. The evil being our budget is being well exceeded. I don't have a good answer at the moment other than to do my best with what I do and hope that much contributes to the up swing. But I also attribute the scope of this problem to be attributed to piss poor prior planning. I have some credible hindsight discovery in this, but don't we all? I'm actually trying to expand my business at the moment, crazy huh. But I'm determined and that's about the best I can do to better things personally, at least for now.

quote:



Do we let them as individuals fail and not provide the help that we seem to able to provide other countries? (I know...another big issue but it's a fact...we've been paying into the infrastructure of other countries for years)



I'm a Gorean you know, America is my Home Stone, it's a damn site bigger Home Stone than the philosophical examples in those books, but all the same I love this country and all you crazy fuckers out there. I do want the government to help those in need, at least short term, but not take over. Governments can't seem to nor have they ever proven able to control their lust for power and greed in general.

Now if we want to discover better uses for and the better execution of governement that could take more than this thread to define.

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Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:40:20 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: masterdave48161

How is it that paying more taxes helps to right the economy?


Paying one`s bills as they go(not running up debt),putting one`s financial house in order,improving one`s credit rating and worthiness and launching a positive financial trajectory (as Bill Clinton did) is part of improving to overall economy.

If one spends more money,one must pay those receipts,or he`s a fucking sorry loser who can`t be trusted in the future.Something America(under GOP control) has become.

The Dem's will put things right as Clinton did,once again, following another drunken GOP spending spree.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 10:54:48 AM   
rednicky


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quote:

ORIGINAL: masterdave48161

How is it that paying more taxes helps to right the economy?



Well masterdave, it all started with the rise in the cost of gas. It got to the point where people stopped spending money on things because they had to pay for gas. As a result, businesses started to suffer so they had to make cut backs. What's the most expensive thing that a business must pay for? People. Workers. Each individual can be paid as much as 50,000 a year. Cut 200 people and a business saves 100,000,000 dollars. So they had to lay off many people, hence the job loss. But that still wasn't enough, because big businesses were (are) still going bankrupt. So the government had to give them money. A lot of people have a problem with this. but, had those businesses gone under, even more jobs would be lost and even more people would be out of work. I believe the current rate of unemployment is 7% (I may be wrong). The great depression was 20. 7 percent is terrible and it would have been worse. This is also why other companies are buying smaller companies and taking up their debts. what would happen if the bank you used went out of business? Well, if you didn't have insurance, you'd lose all of your money. A lot of people would. So now, there are a whole bunch of people out there without money as well. Back to the job loss. Sure, there are jobs out there in highly demanded fields but these unemployed people are not trained for them. You can't be an engineer if you're an actor (or whatever). So these people must be retrained for jobs that 'are' in demand. medicine, mental health, engineering, construction. There are a lot of roads in America that need rebuilding. but these unemployed people can't afford school. Hell, they can barely afford to keep their houses. This is where the government comes in. Government funding allows people to go to school for a reduced cost (or even free). But the government gets their money from the people. Therefore higher taxes. But these taxes should be used to retrain people who are out of work. The more people there are that work, the more they spend money. The more they spend money, the better businesses do. The better businesses do, the more people they can hire to work for them. The more people are working, the more they will spend. Thus the circle persists as it should. I don't think I'm missing anything.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 11:10:59 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		The government does not spend the money they currently get, in a responsible manner. You want to give them more? Balance the budget, cut pork spending ( I mean the stuff that actually makes the pork barrel report), and stop the earmarks.



quote:

ORIGINAL: rednicky

I mean, seriously, does anyone have a better idea how to right the economy?


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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 11:28:45 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		We have no choice but to inject liquidity by means of a stim-bill,now.

There is no one with capital besides the government,right now.

We don`t have time to debate government efficiency while we`re shedding a half million jobs a month.

That`s not sustainable.


http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNewsAndPR/idUSN08785020090108


A large majority of Americans are willing to pay higher taxes to fix crumbling roads, bridges and other public works projects, according to an opinion poll published on Thursday.

The poll conducted by Building America's Future, a non-profit group that promotes infrastructure projects, found 81 percent would agree to an extra 1 percent on their taxes to pay for infrastructure repairs, while 84 percent believe their state governments should increase spending on public works.


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 11:34:57 AM   
xBullx


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Joined: 10/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterdave48161

How is it that paying more taxes helps to right the economy?


Paying one`s bills as they go(not running up debt),putting one`s financial house in order,improving one`s credit rating and worthiness and launching a positive financial trajectory (as Bill Clinton did) is part of improving to overall economy.

If one spends more money,one must pay those receipts,or he`s a fucking sorry loser who can`t be trusted in the future.Something America(under GOP control) has become.

The Dem's will put things right as Clinton did,once again, following another drunken GOP spending spree.


I'm sure you are aware that the Congress actually creates and maintains the budget; therefore they are the one, not the President that align spending and right the deficit. The President only spends money without Congressional consent in a war time or emergency type environment as been the case with the "W"; who by the way had extensive cases of both. But he is still supposed answer to Congressional oversight. In other words the Congress is the keeper of the purse strings. If the Dems hadn't been using the war, or the lives of our bravest and finest (one thing to remember is when you see references being made to your soldiers in this fashion there's a very good chance the motives are only political and not sincere) sons for political advancement they could have cut the purse strings had they really seen the war as detrimental to our cause.

So who's worse in your opinion, the man that isn't very bright and takes us to war, (as you and your liberal contingent advertise rather regular here); or the man that knows something is desperately wrong and allows it to continue to advance his political position? A tough question don't you think? Looks to me like both the parties we have allowed the right to govern for quite some time have been fuck ups accept in a few best case scenarios.

That being said do you recall who had control of Congress and the budget during the Clinton years? Yes, the Republicans did, and they did rather well before they got full of themselves, at that point greed and arrogance won the day....yet again; as it seems to do with every Congress, as it will or maybe already has with this one.

Vote Libertarian!!!


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I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 11:40:17 AM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

We have no choice but to inject liquidity by means of a stim-bill,now.

There is no one with capital besides the government,right now.

We don`t have time to debate government efficiency while we`re shedding a half million jobs a month.

That`s not sustainable.





To be honest I'd prefer to extend these peoples unemployment benefits and some housing assistance until the economy fixed itself (or they get jobs). Of course we need to implement a system that impresses industry to remain in this country. I believe that the Fair Tax Book by Boortz and Linder address ways to draw business home and actually encourage Americans on a fair and more promising future.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 2/24/2009 11:41:32 AM >

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Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 11:49:33 AM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		It would be something that if you couldn't afford to throw a war...That you would wait. 

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 12:25:23 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		It would have also been much easier for Bush if he didn't have to stand by his choices. I don't remember very many detractors when the thing started. And yes I know, President Obama was against it. It was actually one of the very few things you could actually find him commited too.

Actually I happen to think now that it (the Iraq invasion) wasn't a bad move, it was just piss poorly executed and of course to many greed mongers were in there scooping up boat loads of money. Had they did it right from the start I'm not sure you could elect a Liberal or one of my favored Libertarians. But then hindsight is 20/20, those in power don't seem to receive benefit at the moment of choice, while those nipping at their heels can stand around with the I told you so billboards. But I have a feeling President Obama will discover that soon enough.

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Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 2:46:15 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

We have no choice but to inject liquidity by means of a stim-bill,now.

There is no one with capital besides the government,right now.


The government does not have true capital. They are going to create it.

quote:


We don`t have time to debate government efficiency while we`re shedding a half million jobs a month.

That`s not sustainable.


We make the time. When a ship is sinking you bail the water AND you find and fix the holes. The politicians want everyone convinced we do not have the time, because they do not benefit from reducing pork spending and eliminating ear marks.

quote:


http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNewsAndPR/idUSN08785020090108


A large majority of Americans are willing to pay higher taxes to fix crumbling roads, bridges and other public works projects, according to an opinion poll published on Thursday.

The poll conducted by Building America's Future, a non-profit group that promotes infrastructure projects, found 81 percent would agree to an extra 1 percent on their taxes to pay for infrastructure repairs, while 84 percent believe their state governments should increase spending on public works.



I have no problem paying for those things, at a more local level. I have a problem with the bailouts and short sighted infusion of capital.

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 4:15:54 PM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline 		Simpleanswer to the OP:
We hate taxes because they are taken from us under threat of force and are significantly out of tilt with reality.  Income taxes were envisioned as a temporary (and tiny) measure.  But given the opportunity, the government, under all sorts of administrations, has expanded what the government is "responsible" for because it could always go back to the "tax well" to get more money.

The federal government has well exceeded its charter, according to the intent of the founding fathers.  It has usurped many roles that were once the province of local and state governments.   And it has made many people much less charitable, since now the "gov't" should do it for you.   The Federal government was never envisioned as our nanny. 

So, what is the solution, you ask?  What would I propose? 

1)  I would recommend a planned reduction of federal government and federal programs, probably over decades, to reduce the size of government to a simple beast.   One that goes back to original intent of that federal government.  You want to be an artist?  Fine, but get a sponsor if you need it. You want to study the sex lives of fruit flies?  Go for it...get a grant from Chiquita.   You want to to "pure research?"   Get a job at a research university ... who has the endowment to support it or the donors that will.

2) I would eliminate federal income taxes, starting with corporate income tax.  I'd probably work towards implementing the Fair Tax, since it actually has serious research behind it that commends it.  And then I'd be planning at the same time to reduce that percentage as the federal government's size diminished.

Two simple steps:  Reduce federal "responsibility" and federal "income."  This allows, and requires,  local and state governments and organizations take back their responsibilities.   Not to mention let us care about our neighbors once again and rebuild a sense of community.

Are there some projects that are now "national" in scope?  Certainly.  But each project needs a sunset provision.

Paren Note: I'd also start requiring ALL laws have sunset provisions, forcing those in Congress to review them regularly.  It would also keep them from having to create new laws because that's all they seem to know how to do.





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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 4:26:59 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Well said...

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Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 4:38:43 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

I didn't ask what was wrong with paying higher taxes. I asked if you had a better idea.


You most certainly did ask that.  The title of your thread is, "Why are people in America against raising taxes?" 

I'm against it because it doesn't work, it's unfair, and it's just the pursuit of perpetual class warfare.

I want a flat tax or consumption tax of 10%.  Everyone pays; no loopholes, no excuses.....Everyone pays.  In my opinion, that would work wonders for our economy.  It would be fair, and it would force our government to be a little more thrifty with our money. 

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 2/24/2009 4:39:51 PM >

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RE: Why are people in America against raising taxes? - 2/24/2009 5:08:49 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		I know I’m going to get lambasted by the brain dead ideologues around here but once again I feel compelled to point out simple logic!

When you raise people’s taxes they have less money to spend.  When people spend less money the demand for products and services goes down.  When the demand for products and services goes down businesses lay off workers or go out of business entirely.  Resulting in fewer taxpayers and more people on the government dole (which usually results in Democrats saying we have to increase taxes to solve the problem).

When you cut people’s taxes they have more money to spend.  When people spend more money the demand for products and services goes up.  When the demand for products and services goes up business hire more workers and new businesses are started to meet the demand resulting in more tax payers and less people on the government dole. 




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