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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/2/2009 9:33:16 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

if you think he committed treason then prove it. it should be easy now that obama is in charge of the executive branch ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Yeah,cheney the vice-treasonist, worked out real good.

Didn`t he?

Nuff said....

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/10/whitehouse.leak/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush said Monday that he had declassified intelligence documents in 2003 to help explain his administration's reasons for going to war in Iraq.

"I thought it was important for people to get a better sense of what I was saying in my speeches," Bush said, answering a question from an audience member at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies in Washington.

"And I felt I could do so without jeopardizing ongoing intelligence matters."
Bush said he had authorized the release of the documents because some Americans questioned his reasons for going to war.

(Watch as Bush explains his decision -- 2:02)

"So I wanted people to see the truth," he said. "And I thought it made sense for people to see the truth."

Court papers released last week said that a former aide to Dick Cheney, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, testified before a grand jury that the vice president told him in 2003 Bush had authorized the release of portions in the National Intelligence Estimate.

Libby, Cheney's former chief of staff, is charged with perjury, obstruction of justice and lying to FBI agents investigating the exposure of a CIA operative, Valerie Plame Wilson. Plame's husband, former ambassador Joseph Wilson, was a critic of the Iraq war.

Patrick Fitzgerald, prosecutor in the Libby case, wrote in the court papers that there was an effort by "multiple" White House officials to "discredit, punish or seek revenge against" a critic of the Iraq war -- a reference to Wilson.
The court documents do not suggest Bush approved the leaking of the agent's identity.

On Sunday, Sen. Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican and chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, called on Bush and Cheney to tell the country "exactly what happened."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don`t you read the papers?

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to MasterShake69)

Post #: 141

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/2/2009 9:39:12 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

exactly..bush frozeup
That's something that would never occur to McCain.
When someone has lived after actually being in an airplane suffering a concussion after its crashed into the water and fish are swimming over the canopy....that's someone that doesn't freeze in an emergency.
Obama and Bush both needed experienced foreign policy VPS for the exact same reason. But when the shit hits the fan usually the Vp is at another location and cant hand hold the president.

No, McCain wouldn't freeze in an emergency.

The problem was McCain sold himself out to the extremists in the party to gain the nomination.

The McCain of 2000 was someone I respected and would have voted for, not the McCain of 2008.

(in reply to MasterShake69)

Post #: 142

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/2/2009 9:45:24 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

was there anybody around him to say Bush got high. Anybody to dispute he got handed the joint but didnt smoke it ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

duh everyone knows bush use to drink. Hell even hsi 2 daughters drink. The unproven rumors im talking about is the ones that say he used coke and other illegal drugs.

Bush Gets Stoned by the World Media (washingtonpost.com)

The New York Times broke the Bush marijuana story Friday in a front-page report on Doug Wead, a Christian activist who has published a book based in part on conversations with Bush that Wead secretly recorded in 1998 and 1999.

On Wead's tapes, whose authenticity the White House does not dispute, Bush came close to admitting he had smoked marijuana and avoided answering a question about whether he had used cocaine.

"I wouldn't answer the marijuana questions. You know why? Because I don't want some little kid doing what I tried," Bush said.

Are you suggesting he lied about having tried it and we need witnesses to say he did?

(in reply to MasterShake69)

Post #: 143

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/2/2009 11:14:37 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

rule, it's pretty obvious to any of us with any kind of "executive experience" that you haven't had much, and not much understanding of what personal accountable leadership is about.

Obama may or may not come through in an unexpected pinch or crisis. We will see.

But I will tell you that having personal responsibility of leadership is often best learned in a smaller, less critical organization, than in arguably the most important executive position in the world.

That's all that is being said, but it seems that you take it as a personal slur against Obama. It's really not. It's simply a recognition of his reality.

Firm

Interesting that you claim I take things as a "personal slur" against Obama while you take a personal slur at me.

I think that speaks for itself.

I have made no personal slur against you. If you believe so, please report me to Mod 11.

I simply asked a question about your leadership experiences, because you are raging like many people who have had zero such experience.

As well, you are such a deep partisan that you seem to be incapable of having any kind of rational discussion about politics.

You display a blindness that is an example of the sickness that seems to pervade our political culture nowadays. Much like Owner59, you are so locked into your point of view and your prejudices, that a simple question is seen as a partisan attack.

I think your posts speak for themselves as well.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 144

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/3/2009 2:10:47 AM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

And when we send tons of equipment over seas is it not cheaper to leave it there than to haul it back to the states?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Obama has said he would actually increase defense spending, and this is why....

All that equipment that has been wasted in the last several years, needs replaced. Even if military actions are reduced or stopped, all of that equipment needs repaired, overhauled or replaced. Once that spending is done, then there should be a reduction.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 145

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/3/2009 6:19:03 AM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Depending on the equipment, yes it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

And when we send tons of equipment over seas is it not cheaper to leave it there than to haul it back to the states?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Obama has said he would actually increase defense spending, and this is why....

All that equipment that has been wasted in the last several years, needs replaced. Even if military actions are reduced or stopped, all of that equipment needs repaired, overhauled or replaced. Once that spending is done, then there should be a reduction.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 146

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/3/2009 6:52:09 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

And when we send tons of equipment over seas is it not cheaper to leave it there than to haul it back to the states?

Something to keep in mind with this, Ven, is just how much of our military equipment is custom, and built with technology we don't want to give away. Take the MRAP class of vehicles (mine resistant, ambush protected). Does it seem prudent to leave those laying around for Iran (or whoever) to play with and figure out how to defeat the armor? We might need those again sometime.

As far as the desks, chairs, and a/c units, you are absolutely right. That stuff can stay. We'll have a moving sale at the base.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 147

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/3/2009 7:24:08 AM

samboct

Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline

Ven

A lot of my aggravation with our military spending comes from this problem of logistics. Why are we spending a fortune shipping both fuel and water to the Mideast? Why don't we have distillation plants that can take salt or brackish water and come up with something potable? Why aren't our generators and equipment more fuel and energy efficient? Why aren't we charging electronic equipment with either wind or solar arrays which don't need fuel to be transported across half the planet? I will also point out that if this equipment is developed for the military- odds are there will be lots of commercial spin offs as well.

In terms of the troops on the ground- why weren't the roadways they were using being monitored 24/7? The mines that are being used to blow up a humvee aren't exactly small and have to take several hours of digging. Why hasn't this activity been spotted from the air or space?

My grumble about the Bush administration (and most of the administrations over the last 3 decades) is that they've come up with expensive whizz bang weapons that often don't work at the expense of developing useful technology which would save lives and money. And I'm unwilling to give the Republicans the ground that their defense spending has kept us safe. It's been no more competent than their response to Katrina or the financial system. Military spending can be useful if it generates new technologies and industries. It's far less useful if it just uses existing technology and spends money buying stuff that doesn't really work. From my perspective- the COTS (commercial off the shelf ) program of the 1980s implemented by the Reagan administration was a terrible mistake.

Sam

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 148

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/3/2009 10:30:50 AM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguyWould be similar to comparing Michael Phelps to lil' Stevie Wollinsky, the tard, who swam in circles while competing in the special olympics.

The "tard?" The "tard who swam in circles?" Say, Mr. Politically Correct Social Crusader Guy, aren't you the same one who was so outraged about a cartoon showing a dead monkey last week? Wasn't that you, pissing and moaning about how insensitive it was, and what an injustice it was, and insulting and flaming everyone who disagreed with you? What happened to that guy? How'd he get from there to calling some poor Special Olympics kid a "tard?"

Jesus, what a total hypocrite. I told you before, you really ought to stick with that "class clown" schtick fulltime, so people just automatically know never to take anything you say seriously. It seems like every time you try to discuss serious issues, all you wind up doing is exposing yourself.

My hypocrisy knows no bounds...Everytime I attempt to tackle a serious issue I do end up exposing myself...I have a problem, Lance Rentzel is my hero.

Kids in the Special olympics are tards. Sorry. It's nice that they let the tards compete. The measure of a society is often based upon how it treats it's tards and elderly. Perhaps we are a tard friendly nation?

Either way, my comments made on serious issues no matter how low brow the humor, will always exceed, by light years, any attempt you could make at conducting an intelligent discourse.

Lighten up, Francis.

_____________________________

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

Post #: 149

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/3/2009 2:22:53 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I have made no personal slur against you. If you believe so, please report me to Mod 11.

I simply asked a question about your leadership experiences, because you are raging like many people who have had zero such experience.

As well, you are such a deep partisan that you seem to be incapable of having any kind of rational discussion about politics.

You display a blindness that is an example of the sickness that seems to pervade our political culture nowadays. Much like Owner59, you are so locked into your point of view and your prejudices, that a simple question is seen as a partisan attack.

I think your posts speak for themselves as well.

Firm

No, you didn't "simply ask a question" about my leadership experience.

No more than you are "simply asking a question" about my partisanship.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/3/2009 2:24:05 PM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 150

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/3/2009 2:45:25 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

No, you didn't "simply ask a question" about my leadership experience.

No more than you are "simply asking a question" about my partisanship.

You are partially correct. The questions I asked were for Mike. I'm not sure where you belief that I insulted you came from. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

As far as your partisanship, I suspect that no one doubts that. Do you claim that you aren't partisan?

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 151

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/3/2009 3:03:15 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

Orion and Heretic, thank you both. This confirms some earlier information I had read in the press. And of course the high-tech and specialty items will be removed from the country but much of the basic supplies will be sold to the host country or auctioned off.

samboct- The lack of energy efficiency and high prices for D.O.D. purchases is pretty legendary. Mum worked for a defense contractor back in the 70's and I remember how much waste she saw just being in the secretarial pool.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to samboct)

Post #: 152

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/3/2009 3:55:48 PM

SpinnerofTales

Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline

quote:

The lack of energy efficiency and high prices for D.O.D. purchases is pretty legendary. Mum worked for a defense contractor back in the 70's and I remember how much waste she saw just being in the secretarial pool.
ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Actually, if we all want something we can get behind hating, let's try this whole "cost plus" concept of military contracting. Basically, it works like this. We have a job that needs done or a doo dad that we need built. So we tell the builder "Spend whatever you have to spend on getting said doo dad built and then add some extra for yourself for your trouble". The only fixed cost is how much money these guys are supposed to make.

Now there's a lot of talk about disincentive of sound financial practices on this board. Well how much incentive is there for any contractor not to run up huge overruns in costs as well as steal every cent he can when he knows going in that it's not going to make the job a penny less profitable.

You want to tackle government waste? I think this is a pretty good place to start.

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 153

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/3/2009 5:27:42 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

My hypocrisy knows no bounds...Everytime I attempt to tackle a serious issue I do end up exposing myself...I have a problem, Lance Rentzel is my hero.

Kids in the Special olympics are tards. Sorry. It's nice that they let the tards compete. The measure of a society is often based upon how it treats it's tards and elderly. Perhaps we are a tard friendly nation?

Either way, my comments made on serious issues no matter how low brow the humor, will always exceed, by light years, any attempt you could make at conducting an intelligent discourse.

Lighten up, Francis.

Lighten up? Nah, I don't think so. If you want to insult and attack the character of people who refuse to be as offended as you want them to be by your pet cause, the chimpanzee kerfuffle, you have to expect that people are going to call you on your hypocrisy when 2 days later you're going around calling Special Olympics kids "tards."

Fair is fair. You can't have it both ways. Are you against discrimination and slurs, or do you only get up in arms about it when you feel personally offended?

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 154

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/3/2009 5:35:57 PM

lronitulstahp

Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline

DAMMIT...they never have questions for Moderates around here. Extremists have ALL the fun!!!!!
i feel neglected.............

_____________________________

Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 155

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/3/2009 6:45:19 PM

SpinnerofTales

Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

DAMMIT...they never have questions for Moderates around here. Extremists have ALL the fun!!!!!
i feel neglected.............

Don't feel bad, Iron....because when all is said and done, and both the liberals and the conservatives are through yelling at one another, it's you moderates who decide the elections.

(in reply to lronitulstahp)

Post #: 156

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/3/2009 8:50:22 PM

MasterShake69

Posts: 752
Joined: 11/30/2005
Status: offline

lets start with joe wilson for treason along with Mr Armitage.
joe wilson wrote in the 1999 Who's Who in America',"m. Valerie Elise Plame, Apr. 3, 1998,""

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/13/AR2006091301572.html
Armitage's LeakBy Robert D. NovakThursday, September 14, 2006; Page A21 When Richard Armitage finally acknowledged last week that he was my source three years ago in revealing Valerie Plame Wilson as a CIA employee, the former deputy secretary of state's interviews obscured what he really did. I want to set the record straight based on firsthand knowledge.First, Armitage did not, as he now indicates, merely pass on something he had heard and that he "thought" might be so. Rather, he identified to me the CIA division where Mrs. Wilson worked and said flatly that she recommended the mission to Niger by her husband, former ambassador Joseph Wilson. Second, Armitage did not slip me this information as idle chitchat, as he now suggests. He made clear that he considered it especially suited for my column.

http://wizbangblog.com/content/2005/08/05/joseph-wilsons.php

OB NOVAK, My Leak Case Testimony: 'I learned Valerie Plame's name from Joe Wilson's entry in 'Who's Who in America' 1999

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/10/whitehouse.leak/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush said Monday that he had declassified intelligence documents in 2003 to help explain his administration's reasons for going to war in Iraq.

"I thought it was important for people to get a better sense of what I was saying in my speeches," Bush said, answering a question from an audience member at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies in Washington.

"And I felt I could do so without jeopardizing ongoing intelligence matters."
Bush said he had authorized the release of the documents because some Americans questioned his reasons for going to war.

(Watch as Bush explains his decision -- 2:02)

"So I wanted people to see the truth," he said. "And I thought it made sense for people to see the truth."

Court papers released last week said that a former aide to Dick Cheney, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, testified before a grand jury that the vice president told him in 2003 Bush had authorized the release of portions in the National Intelligence Estimate.

Libby, Cheney's former chief of staff, is charged with perjury, obstruction of justice and lying to FBI agents investigating the exposure of a CIA operative, Valerie Plame Wilson. Plame's husband, former ambassador Joseph Wilson, was a critic of the Iraq war.

Patrick Fitzgerald, prosecutor in the Libby case, wrote in the court papers that there was an effort by "multiple" White House officials to "discredit, punish or seek revenge against" a critic of the Iraq war -- a reference to Wilson.
The court documents do not suggest Bush approved the leaking of the agent's identity.

On Sunday, Sen. Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican and chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, called on Bush and Cheney to tell the country "exactly what happened."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don`t you read the papers?

< Message edited by MasterShake69 -- 3/3/2009 8:52:34 PM >

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 157

RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/4/2009 9:46:43 PM

Racquelle

Posts: 600
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

It would have been high-school civics 20 years ago, but somebody decided to let the teachers unions be in charge of our schools.

As the son of a teacher who works himself in the education field, my understanding is that state officials--not teachers, and certainly not their unions--set curricula.

My mother sets curricula. She's a teacher, and a member of the union. Curricula, in a more universal sense, is set by several entities including the state, teachers, parents, private citizens and even corporations. Even the White House has set curricula. Everyone involved in the creation of curriculum has an agenda, perhaps many agenda. There are some I agree with and some I don't - some who seem qualified and some who don't.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 158

RE: A Question for liberals... - 4/1/2009 6:47:24 PM

MasterShake69

Posts: 752
Joined: 11/30/2005
Status: offline

and Obama sold himself out to AIG ;)

follow the money and Obamas own actions. Why isnt Joseph Cassano in jail? A stimulus bill which nobody could read before it was voted on. Then it took 4 days for Obama to sign it which secretly contained AIGs bonuses. How does AIGS bonuses stilimate the economy?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

exactly..bush frozeup
That's something that would never occur to McCain.
When someone has lived after actually being in an airplane suffering a concussion after its crashed into the water and fish are swimming over the canopy....that's someone that doesn't freeze in an emergency.
Obama and Bush both needed experienced foreign policy VPS for the exact same reason. But when the shit hits the fan usually the Vp is at another location and cant hand hold the president.

No, McCain wouldn't freeze in an emergency.

The problem was McCain sold himself out to the extremists in the party to gain the nomination.

The McCain of 2000 was someone I respected and would have voted for, not the McCain of 2008.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 159

RE: A Question for liberals... - 4/1/2009 6:58:57 PM

CruelNUnsual

Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

The lack of energy efficiency and high prices for D.O.D. purchases is pretty legendary. Mum worked for a defense contractor back in the 70's and I remember how much waste she saw just being in the secretarial pool.
ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Actually, if we all want something we can get behind hating, let's try this whole "cost plus" concept of military contracting. Basically, it works like this. We have a job that needs done or a doo dad that we need built. So we tell the builder "Spend whatever you have to spend on getting said doo dad built and then add some extra for yourself for your trouble". The only fixed cost is how much money these guys are supposed to make.

Now there's a lot of talk about disincentive of sound financial practices on this board. Well how much incentive is there for any contractor not to run up huge overruns in costs as well as steal every cent he can when he knows going in that it's not going to make the job a penny less profitable.

You want to tackle government waste? I think this is a pretty good place to start.

There are very few if any pure "cost plus" contracts in Defense procurement. The vast majority either have ceilings or are "cost plus with incentives" that ensure greater profits when costs are held to various levels.

"Cost plus" became the favored form of contract for the DoD because competition in the defense industry virtually disappeared with the spending of the "peace dividend" and consolidation of the industry into single providers of any given technology. Firm fixed price contracts were bid high because there was no one to underbid them.

You can't have your cake (drive competition out of the industry) and eat it too (enjoy competitive pricing).

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)

Post #: 160

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