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A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 5:01:24 AM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Conservatives were asked a question on another thread and I thought it would be or real interest to ask a few questions of those of you who made up your mind to vote for Obama to lead the country anywhere from four months ago to maybe more than a year ago. 

It's now been about six weeks that President Obama has had the power of the Oval Office to put his imprint on America.  Has he measured up to your expectations and, if so, could you share with us what you see that he has done to improve your life or the country that pleases you.

Any thoughts on Hillary leaving the administration and getting back into a national race as a challanger to Obama or stay and wait eight years until she is about as old as McCain?  Just wunder'n since down deep I don't think she is in for the duration as second fiddle to Biden, Mitchell, and all the other "advisors" reporting to the Secretary of State...and the President. Erase Biden...sorry..he is now in charge of "middle class" programs..whatever that means...
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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 5:13:55 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		I voted for Obama, and hate Bush's guts, so I think I'd be considered a liberal, although I don't agree with all the Dems' policies.

I'm pretty much onboard as far as Iraq and Afghanistan go, as well as Gitmo.  Bush left a huge cluster fuck in all three places, not easily resolved, and Obama is pushing to resolve them while balancing the need to get the job done, and the carefulness necessary not to make a serious misstep.  Just in that approach alone, I'm delighted with the contrast with Bush.  (Note:  Bush has permeated our national political scene so much and so long that I unconsciously use him as a benchmark against which to measure Obama - I should be trying to evaluate Obama on his own.)

I'm disappointed in his economic policies.  The stinulus bill continues the stupid legacy of Bushenomics - give people money from the government, via tax cuts or outrght bonuses, and the economy will miraculously get better.  For some obscure reason, no executive government has ever thought to do a simply SWOT analysis - what do we as a country do well, and how do we make sure it does better?  What do we as a country do poorly, and how do we make sure it does less poorly?  Obama's take on the economy is that it flows from the government, and he needs to make sure that the government properly feeds the economy.  Bush's take is that the economy is hurt by the government, and he needed to make sure that the economic damage was minimized.  Neither one seemed to realize that the government is nothing more than a necessary evil which needs a strong private sector to survive, and to care and feed the private sector.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 5:43:56 AM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		I am not a liberal, but I voted for and support Obama, so I will answer your question. So far so good, but it's a bit too soon to tell. Any economic policy will take time to take root.  I'm not completely convinced that the economic stimulus will work, BUT I think it, or something like it, had to be done. He has a HUGE mess to fix. It's like inheriting a house that has been burned to the ground and being expected to rebuild it without spending money (all the while people are living in it and bitching and moaning because all of them want a different part of it fixed first). It can't be done.

The problem with our economic woes is that all parts of the cycle are broken. Therefore you cannot inject "stimulus" into just a single area and expect improvement.  It just won't work. Injecting stimulus into ALL areas is hugely expensive, but what else can you do when ALL areas are broken?

In terms of the separate legislation to help homeowners, I took a look at the details, and overall I think it's pretty sound. I was not happy about the idea of bailing out people who overbought or who were irresponsible in buying a home. Not just because I don't want to reward irresponsibility, but because in the long run, it's better for the economy to get people into homes who can afford them. The package targets people who can afford their homes but are stuggling due to the current economy and helps them restructure to take the pressure off.  So- based on this one piece I took a closer look at, I'd say he's done well. The only part I don't agree with is the portion that would allow Bankruptcy judges to force banks to take a markdown on the value of a property.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 5:52:36 AM   
MarsBonfire


Posts: 1034
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		The only thing I find even slightly disappointing about the Obama administration so far is his attempts at bipartisanship. Obviously, the republicans don't want to play ball. So, they should be marginalized, and steamrollered over wherever possible.

The GOP is no longer relevant to the running of this country, thank God. Ignore them, and get on with it.

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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 6:20:05 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

The only thing I find even slightly disappointing about the Obama administration so far is his attempts at bipartisanship. Obviously, the republicans don't want to play ball. So, they should be marginalized, and steamrollered over wherever possible.

The GOP is no longer relevant to the running of this country, thank God. Ignore them, and get on with it.

Funnt but had a pub made that statement during the last administration, you folks would have burned him in effigy.... at the very least.  When the Dems acted in a partisan and childish manner, they were heroes to so many.  The truth is, they were childish and arrogant just like the Pubs. 

I voted for Obama and am pleased so far with his performance.  His attempts at bipartisanship are the only way that the old wounds will ever begin to heal.  When we stop trying to make one group irrelevant we might actually build this country back to what it is supposed to be.  When we begin to count one side out and to label them as less than human we enable them to come from behind and do the same to us for a while.  This president seems to realize that being a partisan bigot is the road to even further disaster.

_____________________________

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Soldiers died for your right to be ungrateful.

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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 6:47:45 AM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I voted for Obama, and hate Bush's guts, so I think I'd be considered a liberal, although I don't agree with all the Dems' policies.

I'm pretty much onboard as far as Iraq and Afghanistan go, as well as Gitmo.  Bush left a huge cluster fuck in all three places, not easily resolved, and Obama is pushing to resolve them while balancing the need to get the job done, and the carefulness necessary not to make a serious misstep.  Just in that approach alone, I'm delighted with the contrast with Bush.  (Note:  Bush has permeated our national political scene so much and so long that I unconsciously use him as a benchmark against which to measure Obama - I should be trying to evaluate Obama on his own.)

I'm disappointed in his economic policies.  The stinulus bill continues the stupid legacy of Bushenomics - give people money from the government, via tax cuts or outrght bonuses, and the economy will miraculously get better.  For some obscure reason, no executive government has ever thought to do a simply SWOT analysis - what do we as a country do well, and how do we make sure it does better?  What do we as a country do poorly, and how do we make sure it does less poorly?  Obama's take on the economy is that it flows from the government, and he needs to make sure that the government properly feeds the economy.  Bush's take is that the economy is hurt by the government, and he needed to make sure that the economic damage was minimized.  Neither one seemed to realize that the government is nothing more than a necessary evil which needs a strong private sector to survive, and to care and feed the private sector.



Appreciate your thoughtful views Dark...and actually agree with a lot of the substance of what you said.
I really disagree on Gitmo..think Obama is finally seeing that Bush was correct and is doing the right think in Iraq, and obviously pissing off Pelosi and the radical left that thought the troops would all be taken out as they were in VietNam. 

I am really in your camp when t comes to the government, which creates nothing, needing a strong private sector to survive..but I think it's also the economy and job creation that needs a stimulus to business.  Don't know if you saw Biden the other day when asked where in the "Stimulus Legislation" there was assistance for business and his answer was..bridge repair!  The man is a danger to the republic!

Nobody messes with Joe

A woman, identified as Lisa Hendrickson, wondered specifically what is in the spending package that will help small business.
Biden's response was that she should call his office directly and he personally “will be able to guide her on what pieces of this package will be directly helpful.”
Now, That’s customer service.
 
He also demonstrated some clairvoyant skills theorizing that perhaps customers aren’t able to get to her business because a bridge over a creek somewhere is destroyed. No problem though. The stimulus package will repair that bridge. If there is one. And it’s destroyed. And if they can find it.
In other words..everone seems to be "winging it"..not unusual in politics..but certainly as Obama gets more into "real world mode" and out of "campaign mode"...hopefully this will improve.

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/02/25/nobody-messes-with-joe-biden-warns-governors/

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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 8:14:35 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

Conservatives were asked a question on another thread and I thought it would be or real interest to ask a few questions of those of you who made up your mind to vote for Obama to lead the country anywhere from four months ago to maybe more than a year ago. 

It's now been about six weeks that President Obama has had the power of the Oval Office to put his imprint on America.  Has he measured up to your expectations and, if so, could you share with us what you see that he has done to improve your life or the country that pleases you.

Any thoughts on Hillary leaving the administration and getting back into a national race as a challanger to Obama or stay and wait eight years until she is about as old as McCain?  Just wunder'n since down deep I don't think she is in for the duration as second fiddle to Biden, Mitchell, and all the other "advisors" reporting to the Secretary of State...and the President. Erase Biden...sorry..he is now in charge of "middle class" programs..whatever that means...


I didn't vote for him. Didn't vote for McCain either, but I do think Obama has some integrity. I think it matters to him whether or not he's honest with the public. I'm enough of a realist to know that presidents can't always be honest and transparent, but I do want one who balances the weights of those things rather than one who just talks out the side  of his ass.

I view the whole stimulus/tarp package as potentially catastrophic. I'm not an Oracle nor do I have a crystal ball though. I know Bush started that road and Obama is still on it, and that road essentially is that you're paying failed corporations and failed executives more money for the debt you already have. Shrug.

But if he does indeed take on lobbies and special interest and makes significant inroads into reducing their power on Capitol Hill, well, hell, I might just end up liking the man - at least for that one particular act.

(in reply to corysub)
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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 8:29:06 AM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

It's now been about six weeks that President Obama has had the power of the Oval Office to put his imprint on America.  Has he measured up to your expectations and, if so, could you share with us what you see that he has done to improve your life or the country that pleases you.

Any thoughts on Hillary leaving the administration and getting back into a national race as a challanger to Obama or stay and wait eight years until she is about as old as McCain?  Just wunder'n since down deep I don't think she is in for the duration as second fiddle to Biden, Mitchell, and all the other "advisors" reporting to the Secretary of State...and the President. Erase Biden...sorry..he is now in charge of "middle class" programs..whatever that means...


Although there are a couple of exceptions, and I will detail them in this post, overall I would have to say that I am very satisfied with President Obama's actions in the first six weeks. I think that a great deal of what he has done are steps to get this country moving in the right direction. So let's start with the positives.

Though it is by no means perfect, I am satisfied with the stimulus package Obama signed into law. I believe that the infusion of cash into the economy is a necessary step at this point in time given our current economic situation. that the combination of 275 billion in tax reductions and 551 billion of spending will have a positive effect on this economic crisis. Of course, I do not think that the bill is perfect. I do however think that Obama was correct in his statement that we must not let the perfect become the enemy of the necessary.

Having never beieved in the Bush tax policy, I am pleased that Obama has moved to end the tax abatements for those earning over $250,000. per year. While I know there is debate over this, I am of the opinion that allowing the tax rates for the upper two brackets to raise by 4% to their pre Bush levels will neither cause those earning these incomes to quit working and become beach combers nor will it fundamentally change the nation towards socialism.  Obama promised in his campaign that he would allow the taxes on those earning $250,000 or more to revert to previous levels in this manner while providing lower taxation to 95% of this country's populace. Independent analyists have said that his budget proposal will do just that. I apporoved of the promise and I approve that he carried it out.

Being as I am pro-choice, I strongly approve of his striking down of Mexico City Policy. I strongly disagree with any attempt by the government to limit any valid information and medical options that can be discussed or offered by a doctor to his patients.

Since I believe America can have a strong national security without resorting to tactics we deplore from other nations, I am happy with the direction Obama has taken in this matter. We do not need an unbridled power to make people disapear for an indeterminate amount of time to be safe. We can abide by the Geneva Convention while keeping our country safe. I am pleased to see our country moving in that direction.

I am very happy to see the Mexico City Policy and the ban on funding for stem-cell research fall by the wayside. I do not believe the government should attempt to promote any agenda to the point where a doctor cannot discuss any legal medical option with their patients. I also believe that stem cell research offers so many benefits it should not be discouraged but rather encouraged.

Now for the bad stuff.

During his campaign, Obama made the promise that any legislation presented to him would be put on the web for a period of five days for examination before he signed it. Since I am strongly in favor of transparancey in government, I thought this was a good and powerfull idea. I am very disapointed that he has failed, as of this moment, to implement this plan.

While I am overall in approval of his budget proposals, I do not think that this is the time to be cutting the amount of tax deductions available for charitable deductions evento those earning over $250,000 per year. In this economic environmnt, I believe that any disincentive to charitable donations is not a positive step.

I will admit that I had hoped that Obama would have gone farther in it's seperation between lobbyists and those who could serve in his administration. While he seems to have taken steps in this direction, it is far from the total break he advocated and that disapoints me.

All in all, I would give Obama an A- for his first six weeks. My biggest problem with that, I suppose, was that I really was hoping I'd be able to give him an A+. But I have seen enough to be willing to watch closely and see what he does in the rest of his administration with a sense of cautious optomism. And when dealing with the government, I think that's pretty much the best one can reasonably expect.


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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 8:37:55 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Cory, is your world really split into two, liberals on one side, conservatives on the other? Where did you get that idea from, Lee Atwater?

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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 9:09:36 AM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Cory, is your world really split into two, liberals on one side, conservatives on the other? Where did you get that idea from, Lee Atwater?


Nope..my world is split between good and evil..., good thingy and bad thingy...fair and unfair...like everyone else. 

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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 9:23:44 AM   
Sir Daddy


Posts: 53
Joined: 2/7/2009
Status: offline 		Well, ya' have several questions there.  I'll do my best.

Did I vote for Obama?  Yes

Has he lived up to my expectations so far?  Yes   

What has he done to improve my life or the country?  As far as I can tell, absolutely nothing.  Since he took office, he seems to have put all his energy into that retarded economic stimulus package.  For the record, I have been very vocal in my opposition to the Bank bail out, the auto bail out and that ridiculous stimulus bill.

Now he may have signed another bill into law that does some good and just got less press coverage.  I've been busy and haven't been watching as much news as I normally do.  I know the media has him under a microscope.  If he does something big...good or bad...we'll hear about it.

Do I have any thoughts about Hilary splitting to run again?  It wouldn't surprise me. 

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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 10:55:35 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Cory, is your world really split into two, liberals on one side, conservatives on the other? Where did you get that idea from, Lee Atwater?


Nope..my world is split between good and evil..., good thingy and bad thingy...fair and unfair...like everyone else. 


Ah yes... the eternal Western movie dichotomy...

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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 11:00:36 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Cory, is your world really split into two, liberals on one side, conservatives on the other? Where did you get that idea from, Lee Atwater?


Nope..my world is split between good and evil..., good thingy and bad thingy...fair and unfair...like everyone else. 



Not me, mate. Choice and consequence, here.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 11:58:56 AM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sir Daddy

Well, ya' have several questions there. I'll do my best.

Did I vote for Obama? Yes

Has he lived up to my expectations so far? Yes

What has he done to improve my life or the country? As far as I can tell, absolutely nothing. Since he took office, he seems to have put all his energy into that retarded economic stimulus package. For the record, I have been very vocal in my opposition to the Bank bail out, the auto bail out and that ridiculous stimulus bill.
I feel very similarly.

But I think Bush was a radical spendthrift, of the type that comes along only so often, so I don't get why people are suddenly up in arms about Washington spending habits.

At least some part of this package purports to be about investment in infrastructure. It would be nice to have something to show for money spent.

I'm withholding judgment for now, and I still support the guy.

Edit to add: As ex-military, I do feel more comfortable with Obama as Commander in Chief. I'll leave it at that.

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 3/1/2009 12:00:36 PM >

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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 12:09:34 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Cory, is your world really split into two, liberals on one side, conservatives on the other? Where did you get that idea from, Lee Atwater?


Nope..my world is split between good and evil..., good thingy and bad thingy...fair and unfair...like everyone else. 


Ah yes... the eternal Western movie dichotomy...


Hey, that's America, Kittin. Love it or leave it! You're either for us or you're against us.

Simple minds are forever seeking simple solutions....


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 12:33:55 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		I long ago rejected the notion that the world and human nature are that simple.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Cory, is your world really split into two, liberals on one side, conservatives on the other? Where did you get that idea from, Lee Atwater?


Nope..my world is split between good and evil..., good thingy and bad thingy...fair and unfair...like everyone else. 



Not me, mate. Choice and consequence, here.


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 1:02:11 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I voted for Obama, and hate Bush's guts, so I think I'd be considered a liberal, although I don't agree with all the Dems' policies.

I'm pretty much onboard as far as Iraq and Afghanistan go, as well as Gitmo.  Bush left a huge cluster fuck in all three places, not easily resolved, and Obama is pushing to resolve them while balancing the need to get the job done, and the carefulness necessary not to make a serious misstep.  Just in that approach alone, I'm delighted with the contrast with Bush.  (Note:  Bush has permeated our national political scene so much and so long that I unconsciously use him as a benchmark against which to measure Obama - I should be trying to evaluate Obama on his own.)

I'm disappointed in his economic policies.  The stinulus bill continues the stupid legacy of Bushenomics - give people money from the government, via tax cuts or outrght bonuses, and the economy will miraculously get better.  For some obscure reason, no executive government has ever thought to do a simply SWOT analysis - what do we as a country do well, and how do we make sure it does better?  What do we as a country do poorly, and how do we make sure it does less poorly?  Obama's take on the economy is that it flows from the government, and he needs to make sure that the government properly feeds the economy.  Bush's take is that the economy is hurt by the government, and he needed to make sure that the economic damage was minimized.  Neither one seemed to realize that the government is nothing more than a necessary evil which needs a strong private sector to survive, and to care and feed the private sector.



Steven, that was just an excellent post. You summarize my own feelings very succintly.

I still support Obama, and have hopes that he can find his footing and start to move the economy in a positive direction, but thus far is he is getting off to a very slow  start. Like you, I'm very disappointed in this monstrosity of a stimulus bill, which I think he handled very badly. I lost a good deal of confidence in him over the way he dealt with that crucial issue. I'm also very disturbed by his FY2010 budget. Thus far, the only economists I've read who seem to think the projections are realistic are the White House staffers who  wrote it.

This is troubling to me, but even more alarming to me is the complete lack of leadership in addressing the fundamentals of the economic crisis that grows worse every day. The entire economy is hinging on the financial institutions right now, and the banking system is insolvent. The reason the Dow has essentially been in free-fall for the last couple of weeks is that investors have finally figured that out, and they're also becoming inescapably aware with each passing day that the administration is doing nothing to address that fundamental crisis. He's been in office almost a month and a half, and we still kow nothing about how exactly he intends to solve this problem. The same people are in the same positions, making the same decisions that got us into this situation in the first place, and it's leading us in the same direction it's been leading us for the last 5 months - straight down. The longer this goes on, the more investors will conclude it's because he doesn't know how to solve it, and I think the market could become very ugly this week. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Dow hit 6500 before Friday, maybe even by mid-week, in the absence of some sort of substantive encouraging news from the White House. And I won't be the least bit surprised if it passes 6000 before much longer.

And if he doesn't get this right, it doesn't matter how many other things he does get right. I still have hopes, but thus far, he hasn't given me any reason for genuine optimism. He needs to step up and show us the beef, and soon, because the hole is getting deeper every day.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 1:03:38 PM   
Racquelle


Posts: 600
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline 		Not all Obama voters are liberals, and not all liberals voted for Obama.  It is never that simple.

Be that as it may, in six weeks, what I see, is that we have elected a genuinely intelligent, curious person who will not let the troubled cries of a nation, neigh world,  go unheard.  In 6 weeks, I don't really expect a lot to have changed or been done yet.  Hell, a broken leg isn't healed in six weeks and we have a nation of broken limbs right now.

I believe that the American People will actually have to drive the changes we wish to see, I have really always believed that, and I think we are hurting so badly that we will change because we cannot "not change" - it is simply no longer an option.  What I hope for with this administration is that we will actually be allowed to implement the changes we need.  With our last administration, we saw a fundamental disbelief in the adequacy of the American People to voice their needs, and a desire to deny essential rights.  People swore to God to uphold our Constitution, and then undermined it and the essential basis for it.  AND we agreed to it - we chose the lazy, passive way, and refused to make our state serve us.  Fearmongers want you to believe that asking the state to serve the interests of the people is "socialism".  Don't buy it.  The state belongs to you, not you to it.

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RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 1:17:34 PM   
aravain


Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline 		~FR~

Am I not liberal because I didn't vote for Obama?

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: A Question for liberals... - 3/1/2009 1:20:53 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

Conservatives were asked a question on another thread and I thought it would be or real interest to ask a few questions of those of you who made up your mind to vote for Obama to lead the country anywhere from four months ago to maybe more than a year ago. 

It's now been about six weeks that President Obama has had the power of the Oval Office to put his imprint on America.  Has he measured up to your expectations and, if so, could you share with us what you see that he has done to improve your life or the country that pleases you.

Any thoughts on Hillary leaving the administration and getting back into a national race as a challanger to Obama or stay and wait eight years until she is about as old as McCain?  Just wunder'n since down deep I don't think she is in for the duration as second fiddle to Biden, Mitchell, and all the other "advisors" reporting to the Secretary of State...and the President. Erase Biden...sorry..he is now in charge of "middle class" programs..whatever that means...
The intellectual dishonesty inherrent in the way you chose to phrase these questions is staggering
First you place the onus of justifying ones choice of who to vote for a mere six weeks into said Presidency
Than you presuppose a split within this embryonic administration and ask for comments upon such a happenstance.
You are nothing if not consistant Cory.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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