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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:09:15 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I am personally against abortion unless medically necessary.

Ambivalent about the death penalty.

Hugely for right to die.

Pulling the plug, depends upon that person's wishes and living will. Something every single human being should have. Not having a living will is one of the most selfish things I can imagine.


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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:09:26 AM   
RainydayNE


Posts: 978
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline 		there WAS a story of a woman who was brain dead for 17 hours, though, and returned. =p
does anyone else remember that? http://www.newsnet5.com/health/16363548/detail.html
she woke up as they were discussing how to part her out. =p

my policy on that, now, is... give me 17.5 hours =p if i'm not back by then, call it a day.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:09:31 AM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		Panda, that was a touching story....I am sorry for the passing of your Father  and  think highly of you for sharing it.

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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:10:00 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
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quote:

I'm not an organ donar on my DL, and I refuse to be. I'm probably a little paranoid, but I want the medical staff concentrating on saving my life, not on saving my organs. For medical professionals: PLEASE don't take offense; it's nothing personal. I've just heard stories of incidents like that occurring.


you owe no apology to anyone. It is probably the most personal decision any of us can ever make.


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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:11:52 AM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		Abortion. Its her body. Not mine. So I stay out of this. Of course its my responsibility to be responsible...which I am...so I have never been put in this decision.
If you want some fun reading that will stir controversy, read Freakonomics and the ties he draws between abortion and declining crime rates.

Executions: Fucking right. Ted Bundy needed to die, as do many others.
I have worked in fields that put me in close contact with incarcerated sociopaths. They have no sympathy, no remorse, no redemption.
And anyone who feels otherwise should wonder how they would eel if that was their daughter Bundy violated, both before and after death.


Right to die: A person should have the right to die with dignity. That's it. We get to choose how we live, we should have some say in how we die.

Pulling the plug: For Gods sakes, this is 2009. Make a living will for crying out loud. It takes less than an hour on the net

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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:12:15 AM   
rubberpet


Posts: 1743
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: The Land of Voodoo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet
I don't expect a lot of people to share my view and I'm not looking to start a ranting and raving debate about it.


So you just want to make a statement and not have anyone comment on it? Because I'll be honest: after I read your post, my fingers itched to type a lengthy reply  .


Like I said, I know very few will agree with my opinions.  You can comment on what I wrote, but I'm not going to get into a debate about what I feel.  We agree on two things and disagree on the other two.  I respect your opinions even though I may disagree with them.  All in all, I think it is an interesting topic to see what other people think.

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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:12:27 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE

there WAS a story of a woman who was brain dead for 17 hours, though, and returned. =p
does anyone else remember that? http://www.newsnet5.com/health/16363548/detail.html
she woke up as they were discussing how to part her out. =p

my policy on that, now, is... give me 17.5 hours =p if i'm not back by then, call it a day.
i am the eternal optimist....give me 18 hours.


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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:14:03 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Abortion. Its her body. Not mine. So I stay out of this. Of course its my responsibility to be responsible...which I am...so I have never been put in this decision.



That is so refreshing to read: you wouldn't believe how few men actually say this when abortion is being discussed. Thank you.

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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:19:12 AM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		My pleasure

Your response does elicit  the question of which part do men not say:
1-The not my body
2-We have responsibility
3-All of the above


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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:21:59 AM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		Here's the problem with living will and organ donation designation on a DL, if your family is clinging to your hand while your lifeless body is being kept functioning by machines, the family has the override on that. What you have on paper doesn't mean a thing until they decide to go along with it.

Families stuck in these types of situations...man it sucks. I hate it. I hate that we as people developing technology will have to face this more and more. AND...process your loss after you've allowed someone else to live. The person is dead. Their body doesn't mean anything to them now and will do you no good to hang onto to now rotting body parts. While you hang onto rotting body parts someone else is now faced with death that could have had a different result had you decided to grieve more appropriately.

I know mine is not a popular view. Death sucks. Death sucks for everyone. As a survivor of the individual who died it's your job to make the most of that person's life, and saving someone else is the most amazing way to do it. Your grief will not bring that person back. Your grief will not change someone else's life, unless you CHOOSE to make your grief their grief.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:26:47 AM   
RainydayNE


Posts: 978
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline 		a previous poster stated the exact reason why i also am not an organ donor on my license. if they're more concerned with my parts, they'll worry about that, rather than saving me. and i don't necessarily like that.
my family/loved ones will know my stance on it, and if there is nothing that can be done, they'll know what to do.
but i don't want to be considered spare parts before my life has been saved =p

anyway lessee...

i don't agree with abortion, but i agree with people having some sort of self-determination. first of all, very VERY few people discuss the horrible emotional problems that plague alot of women who get abortions OR the fact that there are unscrupulous doctors selling abortions to women who don't actually even need them. also, NOBODY ever deals with the issue of fetal pain. if they can kick and suck their thumbs, certainly they can feel themselves being dismembered.
have you ever met Giana Jessen? she's one of the more famous people who survived being aborted. it DOES happen, and it isn't pretty.
whether you consider them viable or not, i don't believe you have sanction to be cruel to them.
second, a father's rights activist raised a really REALLY good point that most women will never consider -- if a woman has a right to kill a fetus, why doesn't the man have the right to say "i won't financially support it when it gets here."
it's her body, it's his money, right?
which one is worth more? life or the potential for it, or money?

so... i think people should take responsibility for themselves. abortions should NOT be used as birth control. there are legitimate issues like rape and incest where a woman who feels forced to carry the product of such a heinous act might end up killing herself over it. and you have cases of medical issues where you either abort the (or one, in the case of high-risk multiples) fetus, or the mother dies.

so many grey areas. but in general, i side with "pro-life." sure, a fetus may not be able to survive outside the womb on its own, but neither can the "parasite" in a conjoined twin system. the dependant twin is still considered a life form, isn't it?


the death penalty is interesting, too. i swing back and forth on it. on one hand, i have no problem with retribution. eye for an eye, and all that rot. it has nothing to do with keeping crime down, it obviously isn't doing that. but i think it serves another purpose, and i think servantboyforyou (i think i got that right) outlined it well.
the grey area there, of course, is how many people are sitting on death row who are truly innocent? how many people have been excuted already only to be exonerated by DNA? can we ever trust a system run by humans to be 110% accurate and keep innocent people from being killed for something they didnt do?

with right to die, i think if you want to check out, you should be able to.


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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:30:04 AM   
slaveboy291


Posts: 329
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

a previous poster stated the exact reason why i also am not an organ donor on my license. if they're more concerned with my parts, they'll worry about that, rather than saving me. and i don't necessarily like that.
my family/loved ones will know my stance on it, and if there is nothing that can be done, they'll know what to do.
but i don't want to be considered spare parts before my life has been saved =p


They wouldn't do that.  If they did, they would be in big trouble.  You and the other member are being excessively paranoid.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:31:49 AM   
RainydayNE


Posts: 978
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline 		not really =p it HAS happened before

and for the record it's VERY hard to prove anything against a doctor unless it was something blatant like leaving a rib separator in your body after surgery. =p all they have to prove is that they did what they THOUGHT was best, which could be anything.

granted, i don't trust doctors AT ALL, but still... i dont think it's excessive paranoia.

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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:35:42 AM   
slaveboy291


Posts: 329
Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline 		Uhh yeah you are being paranoid.  Sounds to me like a variation of the organ snatcher urban legend.  Don't believe everything you hear.

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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:36:55 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Executions: Fucking right. Ted Bundy needed to die, as do many others.
I have worked in fields that put me in close contact with incarcerated sociopaths. They have no sympathy, no remorse, no redemption.
And anyone who feels otherwise should wonder how they would eel if that was their daughter Bundy violated, both before and after death.


I'd feel exactly the same way, and that's precisely why our society has established a system of justice that keeps personal vengeance out of the decisionmaking process. That's one of the main purposes of the justice system, really - maintaining social order by taking punishment out of the hands of the offended, and applying as impartial and as impersonal a standard as possible. Even when the result is not as emotionally satisfying as we would sometimes have preferred.


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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:38:40 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Panda, that was a touching story....I am sorry for the passing of your Father  and  think highly of you for sharing it.


Well, thanks, Mark, I appreciate it. I don't typically lay myself out there  like that, but I thought the story might help some people understand where the argument was coming from. And maybe help someone else who's going to be in the same position some day.


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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:41:50 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

My pleasure

Your response does elicit  the question of which part do men not say:
1-The not my body
2-We have responsibility
3-All of the above



Number 3; although it's the responsibility part that struck a chord for me the most. Many men who comment against abortion seldom say that they do their utmost not to get their (female) sexual partners pregnant.

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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:42:10 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline
Abortion: Against its use as a birth control method, unless medically advised or pregnancy occurred as a result of a criminal act. I taught my boy that if he has sex with a girl regardless of wearing a condom, they both have the potential to create new life - and to take responsibility for it. Abortion in the second/third trimester is abhorrent, I suggest anyone supporting it should research the methods used to terminate the life especially when in the third trimester. Doctors and scientists will argue that the 'foetus' feels no pain, that is not supported by video evidence which will show the 'foetus' thrashing in agony as the saline burns through its skin before it eventually drowns in it.

Capital Punishment: Strongly anti. We live in a supposed 'civilised' society and uphold our human rights, yet we abuse the most precious one of all - the right to life. You can argue that killers also abused it, but how will treating kind with kind teach society to be more 'humane'?

Right to die: Strongly for the choice and not necessarily specific to those who are terminally ill, we should always maintain control over every detail of our lives, including how to safely end it without further suffering, allowing us to terminate our existence with dignity.

Pulling the plug: Provided it was a conscious decision and part of a living Will then I am for upholding that person's rights when they can no longer voice that decision. There are occasions when a person has been declared brain dead, supported by two other doctors and yet the patient has recovered - and yes, I know that brain dead is supposed to mean there is no brain function, let's not talk semantics, how can not one but THREE doctors examine independently and yet make the same 'error'? We only understand the human anatomy and the mind to a point. There was a case of a teenage boy who had been in a car accident, was pronounced brain dead and that doctors, after quite a long period of time (we're talking months down the line), requested authorisation from the parents to switch off the machines keeping the boy's body sustained. The parents refused, thankfully, and to cut a long story short, the boy came out of a coma only to recover fully. His story is not unique and which is why I am anti pulling the plug unless it was the explicit wish of the person.

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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:48:49 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE

so many grey areas. but in general, i side with "pro-life." sure, a fetus may not be able to survive outside the womb on its own, but neither can the "parasite" in a conjoined twin system. the dependant twin is still considered a life form, isn't it?



It's argued in medicine that a fetus is a parasitic life form that depends on the life of the woman to survive. It's tough, but sometimes a human being has to make the decision to terminate a potential life for better survival. It's happened from times immemorial.

Nobody's for abortion; but whether it is legal or not, women will do it when they need to, and only they can decide whether it's the best thing for them or not. Nobody else has the right to decide whether it's morally wrong or not; like 'pulling the plug', it's one of the most personal decision a woman will ever have to make. Her reasons are her own. Life is never perfect...

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 3/3/2009 11:49:52 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 11:50:09 AM   
RainydayNE


Posts: 978
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291

Uhh yeah you are being paranoid.  Sounds to me like a variation of the organ snatcher urban legend.  Don't believe everything you hear.


*eye rollage*

you don't know anything about my experiences that justify my opinion on this. so kindly just butt out of it.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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