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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 1:34:07 PM   
windchymes


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The thing about grieving is that, most organs that are acceptable for donation come from people who have been killed or died suddenly and tragically.  The family hasn't had days, weeks or months to prepare for the death as they would if their loved one were diagnosed with a terminal illness.  They haven't had time to go through any of the stages of grief or to seek out counselors, they're in devastating shock, disbelief, agony, can be hysterical.  While I admire your support of organ donation, it's really not fair to judge people for how they grieve, because you don't truly know what they've just been through or what they're actually feeling, or what any extenuating circumstances there may be.   

I'm as for organ donation and saving other lives as much as the next person, and, in some of my days in the field, I've actually helped remove entire eyeballs and bones from fresh cadavers for transplant.  I mean physically stood straddling the bodies that I cut open and wrestled thigh bones out of their sockets (it ain't easy) with the procurement team, and I can be as detatched about it as anyone else working in that field.   But, I've also tried putting myself in the position of imagining that's one of my sons lying there.....and I don't know how or if I could let him go.  Until you're actually in that position, of having to make that final decision while you're feeling fresh, gut-wrenching grief, you really can't predict what you would do or what anyone else should do.

Also, I've been around emergency rooms many times when they brought in multiple traumas, car accidents, gunshot wounds, heart-attacks....never has anyone come running in saying, "They're an organ donor!  Stop resuscitating!!!"  Unless it's a really horrible hospital that should have been shut down anyway, all efforts are made to revive, treat and stabilize.  Whether or not they're a donor hasn't ever come into the picture until after the person has been pronounced dead, or is near being pronounced, so that they can be put on the life-support system to preserve organ viability.



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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 1:35:51 PM   
BoiJen


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right on...I think if that were ok here I wouldn't want to be cremated (as I do now)...I'd also probably be very specific to say "okay wait 5 years tile it's really go then plant a couple of seeds right on top of where I'm at" 

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 1:42:34 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I'd think it be cool to be buried in a fruit orchard, that way people would be eating me for many years. 




Not only has this thread become morbid but twisted as well.

But I kind of like that.

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 1:54:27 PM   
BitaTruble


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Abortion: Himself and I are both pro-choice.

Right to die: We both believe that it is a personal choice and no one´s business least of all a government to determine whether or not someone should be forced to live when they are ready to die.

Organ donation: Okay, I will be 49 years old on Saturday and I have used my body pretty damn hard over the years but if anything can be used to help someone else live or live with less pain, or be used to educate future healers, take anything and everything and use it up.. and I will chalk it up to my last and best form of service. If there is anything left over, I would like it burned and scattered over the Pacific ocean.

Pulling the plug: Pull the damn plug already. My spirit has better things to do than sit around in the shell for no reason.

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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 2:04:39 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
People who are in favour of the death penalty but who oppose abortion on the grounds that life is sacred puzzle me the most.



People who won't give an innocent child a chance at life, but who are willing to spare a murderous criminal, convicted beyond a reasonable doubt puzzle me the most.

It's not that I hold life sacred, it's the criminal had his chance, and decided to be a detriment to society, whereas the aborted baby never had a chance.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 2:21:18 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

Abortion. If you are a pro-choice person, is there a point where you view the process as murder or is it until birth, a choice?


For me, I'm not all that keen on mid 2nd-trimester abortion unless the mother's life is imminently at risk (after 20 weeks). That being said, the point at which the fetus can survive outside the womb with minimal support (not extraordinary means) is my  limit. If the fetus is born and is able to breathe, and providing nutrition, oxygen, and support to maintain body heat is sufficient to allow it to thrive outside the womb, it is a baby. Typically, for myself, as a former midwife, I put this at about 25-26 weeks (prior to that point, the lungs are typically insufficiently developed to allow the baby to breathe without a ventilator.) It is important to note, though, that in my opinion, until the point at which a fetus is able to survive on its own, I consider it a parasite, strictly -potential-, without any capacity to express that potential, and with no assurance that any potential will be met... and the mother, alive and functioning in society already, should have the right to choose whether or not to bring that creature into existence.

I also do not feel that the government has any right to determine, for me, whether or not I produce progeny. I feel that personal freedom in such matters is paramount, and that giving our government (or, to break it down even further, giving my next door neighbor) the right to decide whether or not I am forced to give birth to a child I am carrying is an infringement on my right to the sovereignty of my own body.

quote:

Executions: Regardless of whether or not they deter criminals, do you think executing someone for the murder of another to be an acceptable form of punishment? If not, are there instances where it would be?


Honestly, I've always been sort of tied up on this one. I think that it is a terrific drain on our society to continue to feed and house criminals who have no hope of revision of their behavior or mindset, and who absolutely cannot be released back into society due to the risks of recidivism. I also find it abhorrent to imprison a man, and to force him to live in a cage for the remainder of his days. I consider a murderer, in a sense, in the same way that I would consider a wild animal, and, to me, it is, in its own way, a crime to steal another man's freedom as much as it is to steal a man's life.

At the same time, I think that we could reduce our prison populations by removing non-violent offenders, and not have to commit murder to compound the murder already committed by the incarcerated individual. If we -must- have prisons, I think that they should be reserved -only- for those who are too dangerous to be allowed to remain on the streets.

If it were me, I'd like to have a place like Coventry (anyone here familiar with the concept?) where they could have a place where they wouldn't be -incarcerated-, but where they would only be interacting with other individuals who were similarly incapable of refraining from inflicting violence on others.


quote:

Right to die: How do you view right to die laws that exist for the terminally ill? Should it be a right in your view? Or do you believe that medical science has evolved to a point where one can die in peace without suffering? If you were the person making the decision, what would drive that process, fear? Economics? What?


This is my body. I reserve the right to decide how and when I choose to die. It is irrelevant to me whether another person agrees with my opinion of my own death. It is not their decision to make. My body is sovereign, and I claim sole discretion to determine its time of departure from this incarnation, whether it please someone else or not. I am not inclined to the use of extraordinary measures to remain alive, and particularly, at the point at which I am deemed permanently unable to interact with my environment and communicate as I so choose to do, I have formally requested the right to die in whatever time it takes my body to do so, and with any assistance the merciful choose to provide. I have no fear of death, and to me, there is no such thing as "dying before one's time"... when one dies, that -is- one's time.

quote:

Pulling the plug: One of the areas in which I've always found pro-lifers to be inconsistent in defending life is removing others from life support. Aside from Terri Shaivo (sp), it is a common practice done in hospitals every day that generates little if any uproar. But in a technical sense, it is taking the life of another person. A few months ago a story ran on the front page of Yahoo about a man who had been brain dead, or at least thought to be, for 17 years who suddenly woke and came back with most if not all of his mental faculties. If you were called upon to make that decision, do you feel it to be one that could haunt you?


I consider the issue of removing a person from life support to be the same as freeing a man from prison. If someone is to die, then keeping hir alive on artificial life support is trapping hir in that body. If xhe is not meant to die, xhe will continue to live, but extraordinary means of sustaining life for those who have chosen otherwise, or for those for whom medical science can find no possibility of recovery is, to me, a form of involuntary imprisonment. It would not haunt me, were it my decision to make.

I made the decision once, for my mother. She had been clear in saying that she knew she was close to death, and was ready to die, several weeks before the stroke that put her in a coma. When the time came to make the choice, I chose to let her go. My dad and brother, on the other hand, chose to over-rule my decision and the express, written wishes of my mother, and the doctors that they worked with agreed to over-rule my mother's end-of-life wishes and inflict extraordinary means on her -- down to having the doctor re-start her heart when it stopped. She -did- wake from the coma, but was unable to move her limbs, and unable to speak. However, according to the doctors, she was able to -understand-, see, and -hear- everything going on around her -- she just had no means of communicating anything she felt or thought with anyone in the outside world. For five years after she woke from the coma, she sat in a nursing home bed, glaring at my father (who sat with her every day). Finally, she had another stroke and did not respond to resuscitation attempts (yes, my father and brother denied even a DNR-Do Not Resuscitate-order!!!). I would feel NO guilt in freeing a person from an ended life and free them from being tied to a body that is no longer useful, and I would hope that those who say that they love me respect my right to not be forced to remain trapped in this body once it no longer serves me.


< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 3/3/2009 2:26:35 PM >


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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 4:12:47 PM   
TNstepsout


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I have pretty strong opinions about all of these things. I am pro-abortion because I think we already have too many people on the planet who are not properly taken care of and abortion helps reduce that number. Is it a perfect option? No, but we are after all not perfect and sometimes we have to make ugly choices.

I am pro capital punishment as well. I don't care what anyone says if a person is determined to prey on others and cannot be rehabilitated why are we wasting resources on him/her that could be put to better use. Again, not a perfect option but this is a real world we live in and we have to made tough choices.

I am VERY pro-right to die. I hate that people are forced to waste away and spend their final years reduced to little more than animated corpses. We offer more compassion to our pets, allowing them to move on with dignity and with as little pain as possible than we do to ourselves and our loved ones. 

Pulling the plug? Well to me that's the same as above. I think we should all have that conversation with our loved ones and they should know, and be allowed to carry out our wishes in this regard.

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 4:20:53 PM   
UPSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

I had this talk with my girl this morning. She works in the medical field and has both a more pragmatic and probably realistic view of life and death. And before I pose the questions, understand I have no real answers for anyone else. I think in terms of my personal choices and what they would be on a given subject.

So here they are.

Abortion. If you are a pro-choice person, is there a point where you view the process as murder or is it until birth, a choice?

Executions: Regardless of whether or not they deter criminals, do you think executing someone for the murder of another to be an acceptable form of punishment? If not, are there instances where it would be?

Right to die: How do you view right to die laws that exist for the terminally ill? Should it be a right in your view? Or do you believe that medical science has evolved to a point where one can die in peace without suffering? If you were the person making the decision, what would drive that process, fear? Economics? What?

Pulling the plug: One of the areas in which I've always found pro-lifers to be inconsistent in defending life is removing others from life support. Aside from Terri Shaivo (sp), it is a common practice done in hospitals every day that generates little if any uproar. But in a technical sense, it is taking the life of another person. A few months ago a story ran on the front page of Yahoo about a man who had been brain dead, or at least thought to be, for 17 years who suddenly woke and came back with most if not all of his mental faculties. If you were called upon to make that decision, do you feel it to be one that could haunt you?




Technically, at least as I understand it, murder is a legal term. So, whether or not one is against abortion or not it can't be regarded as murder technically.

For the most part, with a few questions here or there I have not made up my mind on, I agree with the Catholic position on these issues. On the issue of abortion I believe overall the Catholic Church has articulated the most logically coherent position so far. However, I'm moved by the Dali Lama Buddhist position too which is essentially anti-abortion (Buddhist Holy Script also views sex with women as a base and impure act but that's a different thread) but within the degree of seeking the least harm is open to circumstances for abortion being a morally or ethically acceptable choice.

A Catholic Nun from the United States - a rather young, attractive, brunette I might add - was gang raped and tortured by CIA backed forces in Latin America (the whole tale is a rather unattractive picture of covert U.S. operations in that region - at least several years ago). One result was she became pregnant. A devote young Nun she could not mentally endure giving birth to the child and had an abortion. Can I blame her? No. Was it right or wrong? I'll leave that between her and God.

Of course that is entirely different than the contemporary culture of the United States which admonishes 16 year old boys (who really know sh*t in the world) and demand they, "Be a man," and take responsibility for the child they created through the choices of their own, yet turns around and tells 30 year old women it is ok to be porn stars, have 12 different lovers, and have as many abortions as they want because women should never have to, "Be women," and take responsibility for the child they created through the choices of their own.

The U.S. Supreme Court ruling on abortion was politics - like the Dred Scott ruling - and is not based on whether or not human life is present at conception (which it is) but on the issue of privacy. To be fair, and to be given equal protection under the law, young men should be given choice if they want to be fathers or not. However, U.S. courts have determined that the welfare of a child supercedes the choice and desire of a man - even if the man is not biologically the father of the child (e.g. he unwittenigly signs off on papers of a new born being his without taking DNA tests [quite common actually]).

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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 4:35:49 PM   
Vendaval


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I am pro-choice on contraception and abortion and the right to die with dignity.
 
In regards to criminal executions I am divided.  There are people who have committed such horrible crimes that they can never be released into society again.  But does society have the right to end their lives?  I do not have an answer to that one.  Making the executions public would just be the worst sort of sensationalism and would add to the culture of violence in the States.
 
In regards to ending life support I want the wishes of the patient to be in writing and for the family members to be in agreement.

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 4:39:38 PM   
slaveboy291


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

They wouldn't do that.  If they did, they would be in big trouble.  You and the other member are being excessively paranoid.


Paranoid, huh?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/27/us/27transplant.html?_r=1&fta=y

quote:

Surgeon Accused of Speeding a Death to Get Organs

SAN LUIS OBISPO, Calif. — On a winter night in 2006, a disabled and brain damaged man named Ruben Navarro was wheeled into an operating room at a hospital here. By most accounts, Mr. Navarro, 25, was near death, and doctors hoped that he might sustain other lives by donating his kidneys and liver.

But what happened to Mr. Navarro quickly went from the potentially life-saving to what law enforcement officials say was criminal. In what transplant experts believe is the first such case in the country, prosecutors have charged the surgeon, Dr. Hootan C. Roozrokh, with prescribing excessive and improper doses of drugs, apparently in an attempt to hasten Mr. Navarro’s death to retrieve his organs sooner.


and:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/17/AR2007031700963.html

quote:


By Rob SteinWashington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, March 18, 2007; Page A03



The number of kidneys, livers and other body parts surgeons are harvesting through a controversial approach to organ donation has started to rise rapidly, a trend that is saving the lives of more waiting patients but, some say, risks sacrificing the interests of the donors.   

Under the procedure, surgeons are removing organs within minutes after the heart stops beating and doctors declare a patient dead. Since the 1970s, most organs have been removed only after doctors declared a patient brain dead.
Federal health officials, transplant surgeons and organ banks are promoting the alternative as a way to meet the increasing demand for organs and to give more dying patients and their families the solace of helping others.

Some doctors and bioethicists, however, say the practice raises the disturbing specter of transplant surgeons preying on dying patients for their organs, possibly pressuring doctors and families to discontinue treatment, adversely affecting donors' care in their final days and even hastening their deaths.


Okay, do those sound like urban legends to you?



More like hysteria, your more likely to run into an organ thief than you are a paramedic who does that.  And as I as said they would be in big trouble if they did that.

Hysteria, paranoia fact remains.  there's about a 1 in 1 hundred billion chance that'll happen to you.   Now give your head shake and repeat after:

Paramedics are my friends
Paramedics are my friends
Paramedics are my friends

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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 4:44:09 PM   
Aynne88


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                                                                               Fast Reply

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-crisis-american-death-penalty

So, all of you death penalty proponents, how many of these innocent people's blood do you want on your hands? I want none. You want to leave that decision to this fucked up justice system? You have to be kidding.  Public ones too, did I read that correctly?  Huh, let's give the wife, parents and kids of the innocent a front row seat, shall we?

No wonder everyone thinks we are a nation of armchair warriors.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 4:52:53 PM   
DesFIP


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Around here, if you have a baby and take it to a hospital, leaving it there to be cared for - the police will spend manhours finding you and charging you with every damned crime they can. Which makes no sense. Leaving a baby at a nurse's station but not signing forms means the mother is a kid who is afraid of what will happen at home if her parent's find out. Not that you are heartless and endangering the welfare of a minor.

Unfortunately about transplants, time is critical. The way around this, and every other medical ethics question is to sign the forms when you are well. Have a signed and notarized health proxy giving someone the right to make the decisions and tell them what decisions you want made. That's the sensible thing to do.

How many of us on this thread have done that? Or given a durable power of attorney? Which reminds me, I need an appointment for my daughter to do this on her break now that she's over 18.

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RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 5:01:29 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

More like hysteria, your more likely to run into an organ thief than you are a paramedic who does that.  And as I as said they would be in big trouble if they did that.

Hysteria, paranoia fact remains.  there's about a 1 in 1 hundred billion chance that'll happen to you.   Now give your head shake and repeat after:

Paramedics are my friends
Paramedics are my friends
Paramedics are my friends


No, you said it was an urban legend.  It's obviously has happened and could happen again.  I never said that I distrusted medical people.  I simply won't sign up as an organ donor on my DL.  It's meaningless, feel-good drivel anyway.  Your family has the say so when you die. 

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 5:09:48 PM   
Kana


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2 final thoughts
1-I am an organ donor
I am not gonna use them so why not let someone else.
Course, I plan on using my body extensively before being done.
Anyone who wants my liver...I feel sorry for them.
Grins.
2-I no way want to be buried. Sorry, but the idea of being worm food just doesn't work for me.
I know that contradicts what I said immediately before, but its an emotive knee jerk reaction.
I want to be cremated, tossed in the ocean and let drift.
Then take what money I have left, throw a party and tell lies about what a great guy I was.


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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 5:15:39 PM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

I had this talk with my girl this morning. She works in the medical field and has both a more pragmatic and probably realistic view of life and death. And before I pose the questions, understand I have no real answers for anyone else. I think in terms of my personal choices and what they would be on a given subject.

So here they are.

Abortion. If you are a pro-choice person, is there a point where you view the process as murder or is it until birth, a choice?

I have a daughter and, thankfully, she has not had to face this issue.  If she were preggie with a child from a boy man she was going out with I would encourage her to have the baby...but it would be her choice.  If she went beyond 4-5 months, I would be very upset if she aborted in late in the second trimester, and would consider it murder if it was done in the third trimester, unless she was in danger and the choice was her or the child. 

Executions: Regardless of whether or not they deter criminals, do you think executing someone for the murder of another to be an acceptable form of punishment? If not, are there instances where it would be?
I believe in the death penalty for every capital crime.

Right to die: How do you view right to die laws that exist for the terminally ill? Should it be a right in your view? Or do you believe that medical science has evolved to a point where one can die in peace without suffering? If you were the person making the decision, what would drive that process, fear? Economics? What?
I believe we have the right to chose to die if we are terminally sick and want to die.

Pulling the plug: One of the areas in which I've always found pro-lifers to be inconsistent in defending life is removing others from life support. Aside from Terri Shaivo (sp), it is a common practice done in hospitals every day that generates little if any uproar. But in a technical sense, it is taking the life of another person. A few months ago a story ran on the front page of Yahoo about a man who had been brain dead, or at least thought to be, for 17 years who suddenly woke and came back with most if not all of his mental faculties. If you were called upon to make that decision, do you feel it to be one that could haunt you?
I would want the plug to be pulled and I would pull the plug for a family member.



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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 5:15:39 PM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Of course that is entirely different than the contemporary culture of the United States which admonishes 16 year old boys (who really know sh*t in the world) and demand they, "Be a man," and take responsibility for the child they created through the choices of their own, yet turns around and tells 30 year old women it is ok to be porn stars, have 12 different lovers, and have as many abortions as they want because women should never have to, "Be women," and take responsibility for the child they created through the choices of their own.



I don't want to get too far off track, but what are you talking about?  What makes you think the majority of people approve of women being porn stars, having 12 lovers and as many abortions as they want?

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 5:20:32 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
To be fair, and to be given equal protection under the law, young men should be given choice if they want to be fathers or not.


The problem for men is that the fruit of their loins grows outside of their bodies and inside that of another person. This restricts their say in the matter to an enormous degree. The only way they can make an active decision on their accession to fatherhood is of a negative nature, to not have children, by ensuring that they wear a well fitting prophylactic each time they have sex.

If they want babies, that's yet another matter: they'll have to negotiate that with a woman. Tough: it's the nature of nature.


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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 5:22:50 PM   
slaveboy291


Posts: 329
Joined: 3/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

More like hysteria, your more likely to run into an organ thief than you are a paramedic who does that.  And as I as said they would be in big trouble if they did that.

Hysteria, paranoia fact remains.  there's about a 1 in 1 hundred billion chance that'll happen to you.   Now give your head shake and repeat after:

Paramedics are my friends
Paramedics are my friends
Paramedics are my friends


No, you said it was an urban legend.  It's obviously has happened and could happen again.  I never said that I distrusted medical people.  I simply won't sign up as an organ donor on my DL.  It's meaningless, feel-good drivel anyway.  Your family has the say so when you die. 



No I said it sounds like a variation of the organ snatching urban legend. 

And if your family have the say, you have nothing to worry about.

Sorry but you still haven't convinced me that your being rational in your fear of paramedics.

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 5:24:37 PM   
Aynne88


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Exactly. Wear a fucking condom. No more "she lied". Well tough. When  I was dating if a guy said to me that he had a vasectomy or whatever else reason that he could not impregnate me, too bad. I chose to not believe him unless he was the "one." So, condoms it is fellas. Oh, I know, you can't feel anything right? Well, guess what? You feel even less if we don't. Deal with it.       

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Acceptable Murder - 3/3/2009 5:24:47 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

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http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-crisis-american-death-penalty

So, all of you death penalty proponents, how many of these innocent people's blood do you want on your hands? I want none. You want to leave that decision to this fucked up justice system? You have to be kidding.  Public ones too, did I read that correctly?  Huh, let's give the wife, parents and kids of the innocent a front row seat, shall we?



Thanks, Aynne. I've deliberately steered clear of being too vocal about this today, but I was dying to say something too - I couldn't have said it better, and that link is precious. Everybody should see it.

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(in reply to Aynne88)
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