RE: Acceptable Murder

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UPSG -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 7:10:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I haven't read the thread, but strictly to the questions of the OP; Abortion: Right up to the point where we can just induce labor and adopt out a preemie. The sovereignty of an individual over their body wins the values conflict. Interesting, Heretic. Assuming that was judicial opinion - we do operate off of the principle of precedents in the U.S. - it would be fair to assume U.S. courts would not be sentencing drug addicts and those in possession of illegal drugs like cocaine and heroin to prison. Likewise, it would be fair to assume across the United States teenagers and children would be given federal protection to consume alcohol, and even more so it would be fair to assume that local statues across the United States would allow 17 year old girls to get tattoos at tattoo parlors. However, as it remains, most U.S. women, are against allowing adult women the legal right to prostitute (women that are not into prostitution would prefer to see men incarcerated for finding legal privilege to by-pass courtship and female manipulation, to obtain easily had sex for money with prostitutes) and teenage girls the right to obtain tattoos on their body without parental approval, yet to destroy the life of another person created by sex - most often sexual choice - women lobby all three branches of Government that no female should have to assume the responsibility of her sexual activity; that responsibility as such is the domain of the man or boy.

UPSG -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 7:25:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TNstepsout "Legislatively. And essentially that's all that matter. It's similar to charging interests on loans or state and or federal taxes, regardless of what anyone feels on the matter morally or ethically one way or the other that these things are legal grants them a presumed innocence of right, especially in a U.S. culture which typically views morality through the prism of what's legal or illegal (e.g. alcohol vs cocaine)." OK- I'm doing this a little differently because we have a weird thing going on with the quotes. What kind of legislation are you talking about? Legally men can be porn stars too. Legally men can have 12 lovers and Legally men don't need abortions. So what are you talking about? The choice to become a parent. It's fair to say you don't know that that is what Roe vs Wade judicial decision is about? The Supreme Court determined it a right of privacy issue. Abortion is declining obligation to parenthood. No 15 year old boy having sex with his 34 year old female teacher receives such protection under the law. Any female porn star can have as many abortions as she wants to decline parenthood because the U.S. Supreme Court has determined that to become a parent is such a significant change in a person's life that unless the person is male they ought not be obligated to become a parent. I don't think most people in the U.S. understand how the United States work. We hear the word "democracy" and think that means "equal" and ethical. It does not. First of all the United States is representative democracy and not a pure democracy and most laws in the nation come through lobbying efforts of interest parties e.g. Mother's Against Drunk Drivers. (the United States is also regarded as the nation that puts out the most propaganda on earth)

truckinslave -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 7:47:40 AM)
Au contraire, BoiJen. The two stances are pro-abortion and anti-abortion.

truckinslave -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 7:51:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RainydayNE toootally agreeing with sirsholly on that. when my uncle died, while we're still reeling from losing him at the age of 38, here comes a doctor saying "hey we want to part out your loved one in a hurry. sign this form." does the family not deserve ANY time to make peace with what happened to THEM? heartlessness doesn't begin to describe it. I'm an organ donor. When I go, I want them harvested in such a way as to do the most good. That means NOW. And, no, I don't care if that upsets the people I love(d).

UPSG -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 8:07:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan People will debate when and where a fetus becomes a baby all day long. For some that moment is conception. For others it is when they can hold it in their hands. We know life begins at conception - that is to say the creation of another individual human life. I'll cede however that the issue of when that human life takes on the characteristic of a person (by that I mean attributes like personality etc.) is debatable. I can't in good conscience regard destruction of a zygote as the same as infanticide or the gunning down of a 12 year old. And I would save the life of an infant in a burning building before trying to save thousands of zygotes. But we do know that human life begins at conception. Some like to deny this because contemporary Western politics is greatly influenced by Machiavelli and the "art of the possible," or that is to say, what you can make people believe and or what you as a politician can accomplish and not about truth and ethics. Essentially it is the art of telling lies. If a woman's right or her body (or a man's right over his) is such a priced value in the people of the modern United States, then why so many drug arrests? And why are so many women in the United States today so adamantly against prostitution being legalized but it was legalized for both men and women prostituting (confined to certain quarters) in the Papal States centuries ago? Even today in Brazil men and women - while solicitation illegal - are given the legally protected right to negotiate money or favors for sexual use of their bodies. http://e-forensicmedicine.net/code.htm quote: The question as to when human life and personhood begins has been made a controversial issue because the proponents of abortion do not want it to begin at least before the first 24 weeks of gestation. There, however, should be no controversy because the scientific facts are incontrovertible. These facts have been obscured on both sides by individuals who do not possess the necessary education, training and experience in science to evaluate and interpret the materials and render valid conclusions or who, influenced by their religious or chauvinistic fervor have reached erroneous or untenable suppositions and conclusions… In recent years there has been a revolution in genetics that confirmed what geneticists and embryologists have been saying for years, that human life with all of its characteristics for a particular human being must be coded in the fertilized egg…

BoiJen -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 8:07:57 AM)
And why do you think that? I'm not pro-abortion. I wish there were better alternatives other than become the host to a parasite that might risk a woman's life and over all health for 9 months just so someone else can fuck up the kid. But there's not for people who have to make that decision and it's not a heartless decision. Many women have a hard time overcoming the choice to abort a potential life. And some are good enough to seek support. This whole, some women use abortion as a form of birth control thing is even more rare than many people want to acknowledge. The benefit of the sex positive attitude is that birth control is a more and more accepted practice even for the poverty stricken. "Pro-life" is actually anti-choice. Meaning they use the excuse of "saving a potential life" as a reason to remove a woman's right to her own body. Pro-choicers sometimes argue that the already existing life is more important than a potential. BTW I'll state again, hookers and hippies would save the American economy, legalize prostitution and grass.

truckinslave -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 9:14:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen I wish there were better alternatives other than become the host to a parasite Wow. Then you go on to say abortion isn't a heartless decision. Double wow. This will be my last reading of your posts, much less reply.

rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 9:19:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen I wish there were better alternatives other than become the host to a parasite.... You were once a parasite.

kittinSol -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 9:22:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave Au contraire, BoiJen. The two stances are pro-abortion and anti-abortion. Wrong: I have yet to meet a single invidual who is pro-abortion: nobody promotes abortion. It would be like promoting appendectomies: are you pro-appendectomy? The stance is pro-choice and anti-choice: BoiJen is 100% correct on this one.

kittinSol -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 9:24:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen I wish there were better alternatives other than become the host to a parasite.... You were once a parasite. We all were: we were dependent on our mothers' lifeforce to survive and grow. It might be a painful way to look at pregnancy, because we have a tendency to sentimentalise it so much in our society (and I speak as a mother, too).

rexrgisformidoni -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 9:26:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen I wish there were better alternatives other than become the host to a parasite.... You were once a parasite. We all were: we were dependent on our mothers' lifeforce to survive and grow. It might be a painful way to look at pregnancy, because we have a tendency to sentimentalise it so much in our society (and I speak as a mother, too). I know ;) I am proud to have been a parasite, and wish my birth had been more "aliens" like. anyhow, have a great day all.

BoiJen -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 9:51:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen I wish there were better alternatives other than become the host to a parasite.... You were once a parasite. Yes, I was. I am now, 23 years later, a productive member of society and likely also part of the problem with the world today if you ask my parents.

BoiJen -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 9:52:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave Wow. Then you go on to say abortion isn't a heartless decision. Double wow. This will be my last reading of your posts, much less reply. Oh my feelins is hurt...whatever shall I do...I know! I'ma go play with the alligator outside.

hlen5 -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 10:00:15 AM)
Are you saying you would have preferred to tear yourself out of your mother's womb? Back to the OP - - Pro-choice - Anti-Death Penalty - Support the right to die w dignity - Don't know if I could pull the plug. Watching my Mother suffer through breast cancer til the end, I still have guilt over snowing her(a family decision). The whole process was gut-wrenching.

truckinslave -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 10:04:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sir Daddy I am PRO-DEATH all the way. =) Abortion: I am pro-choice. My friend Charlotte's child was still born. It was a perfectly healthy fetus until it died in her womb about 6 days before she was due. Such is the ubiquitous uncertainty of life. Now, if some criminal gunned her down 3 weeks before, he would've been charged with two murders - hers...and the "murder" of her unborn "baby". He would have been charged that way because they could not possibly have known that her baby would not have lived to term. He would be charged and likely convicted of a second murder on the assumption that the fetus would've survived to birth. Think on that a bit. Terrifying, isn't it? Hardly. Suppose John shoots at Sam, misses, and is charged with attempted murder. Sam dies of a heart attack the next day. Case dismissed? It is, by your above "logic".

truckinslave -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 10:08:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol People who are in favour of the death penalty but who oppose abortion on the grounds that life is sacred puzzle me the most. People who are fine with killing the most innocent but refuse to kill the most heinously guilty are the ones I don't understand. Life is indeed sacred, but you can forfeit your right to it.

FullCircle -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 10:12:00 AM)
quote: Abortion. If you are a pro-choice person, is there a point where you view the process as murder or is it until birth, a choice? Small point: Murder is the unlawful act of killing and abortion is not unlawful in states these debates are centred around. Therefore abortion is not murder in these states.

kittinSol -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 10:14:14 AM)
Sorry if I hit a nerve, truckin. I understand that whilst you seek to protect the existence of innocent embryos to the detriment of the live human women who don't want them, you also support the execution of innocent people, since it's an inevitability of the death penalty.

SteelofUtah -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 10:15:49 AM)
~FR~ I have not read the thread so I may be repeteing others. I am Pro-Decision. I believe it is the decision of the individual to choose what they think is best. I am a Father and being a Father has been one of the most amazing things that I have done, but andi has an IUC right now because we both believe that bringing another child into this world right now is the wrong thing to do. Should those safetys we put in place fail we would have a choice to make and that is OUR decision to make NO ONE ELSES. Steel

truckinslave -> RE: Acceptable Murder (3/4/2009 10:25:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: They wouldn't do that. If they did, they would be in big trouble. You and the other member are being excessively paranoid. Paranoid, huh? http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/27/us/27transplant.html?_r=1&fta=y quote: Surgeon Accused of Speeding a Death to Get Organs SAN LUIS OBISPO, Calif. — On a winter night in 2006, a disabled and brain damaged man named Ruben Navarro was wheeled into an operating room at a hospital here. By most accounts, Mr. Navarro, 25, was near death, and doctors hoped that he might sustain other lives by donating his kidneys and liver. But what happened to Mr. Navarro quickly went from the potentially life-saving to what law enforcement officials say was criminal. In what transplant experts believe is the first such case in the country, prosecutors have charged the surgeon, Dr. Hootan C. Roozrokh, with prescribing excessive and improper doses of drugs, apparently in an attempt to hasten Mr. Navarro’s death to retrieve his organs sooner. and: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/17/AR2007031700963.html quote: By Rob SteinWashington Post Staff Writer Sunday, March 18, 2007; Page A03 The number of kidneys, livers and other body parts surgeons are harvesting through a controversial approach to organ donation has started to rise rapidly, a trend that is saving the lives of more waiting patients but, some say, risks sacrificing the interests of the donors. Under the procedure, surgeons are removing organs within minutes after the heart stops beating and doctors declare a patient dead. Since the 1970s, most organs have been removed only after doctors declared a patient brain dead. Federal health officials, transplant surgeons and organ banks are promoting the alternative as a way to meet the increasing demand for organs and to give more dying patients and their families the solace of helping others. Some doctors and bioethicists, however, say the practice raises the disturbing specter of transplant surgeons preying on dying patients for their organs, possibly pressuring doctors and families to discontinue treatment, adversely affecting donors' care in their final days and even hastening their deaths. Okay, do those sound like urban legends to you? Nope. They sound like "specters; i.e. boogeymen.

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