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Afghanistan - 3/4/2009 10:06:26 PM

TheHeretic

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      I ran across an interesting article today, suggesting that we are going to see a major reversal in sentiment regarding our military actions overseas. The author suggested that much of the "anti-war" protest of recent years was nothing more than "anti-Bush," in disguise, and that this would become obvious when the same people had no problem at all with Obama's military adventures.

      Being a fair-handed fellow (at least in my impression of his writings), he went on to say that he thinks many of the people who were all in favor of Bush's militarism will now reverse as well, and oppose the expansion of the war in Afghanistan and Pakistan (AfPak).

       At the level where our discussion is driven by nothing but partisan hackery, I think he is absolutely right, but my agreement stopped there. For the actual pacifists and peaceniks, I think they will keep right on doing what they do. They'll just find it a hell of a lot harder to draw the media out to their events, and get invited to the good cocktail parties. I also find it pretty hard to imagine ooh-rah rednecks shrieking that our troops are murderous savages (though they will surely hate the CIC).

     Another problem I have with his premise (again, beyond the basic pavlovian partisan response) is the assumption that support in one situation would automatically imply support for the other. I see the two conflicts as being very different situations. Iraq is ours. We made that situation happen, and I have never felt it was something we could abandon to chaos. Afghanistan, on the other hand, made itself our problem. We are not nearly so obligated there.   This has been my position for quite some time.

     17,000 are headed to Afghanistan in the spring. Less than the generals wanted, but many more than we have there now. Our supply lines are long, and precarious, and the Afghan people have a long history of kicking the invaders out.

      What are your thoughts on the build-up in Afghanistan? Do you think the war will widen in the tribal areas of Pakistan, and become public? What should our goals be to define success in the region?

     And yes, Bush fucked the whole thing up, and Obama inherited the mess. The questions shouldn't be affected by that.

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Post #: 1

RE: Afghanistan - 3/4/2009 10:22:59 PM

LadyPact

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I'll tell you My thoughts about 17,000 troops going to Afghanistan. Quite frankly, I'm very glad you asked.

Every one of those 17,000 being deployed this spring has people who love them that aren't going to see them for a very long time. Some of them won't see them again until they come home in a casket. Some of them won't come home in one piece.

Even if those things don't happen, the people who love those 17,000 won't see them for at least a year. I said this on another post yesterday. Take a look at your life in a year. The good, the bad, the special, and the mundane. Now, think of that year in your life without the person you love.

I'm a military wife and I'm proud to be one. That doesn't mean that year apart doesn't suck. My husband has about sixty days left to his tour in Korea. When he comes home, My sub will go to Afghanistan for a year. It doesn't matter to Me what country they go to or which President sends them. It's still a year in My life.

I don't mean to be rude to you. I know I chose this. I know they chose this. Some days in a year are just harder than others.

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RE: Afghanistan - 3/4/2009 10:33:26 PM

TheHeretic

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I didn't find your reply rude at all, LadyP. I have family heading that way too, and I know about the long stretches, far away.

But it is right there in the contract.

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RE: Afghanistan - 3/4/2009 10:56:31 PM

LadyPact

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I understand that. I really do. I know it's part of it. I wouldn't even ask either of them to change it. They both believe in serving their country. It's one of the reasons that I love them.

This isn't My first trip around, either. Done it before, doing it now, and I'll do it again. Since you have your own family in the military, I'm sure you're no stranger to something every military spouse already knows. The three hardest times are right before they go, right after they go, and that period right before they get home. I'm having something of a bit of a double whammy in that respect.

There's something that I learned a long time ago in life that applies to this situation. Just because I accept something, even in those cases where I've chosen it, doesn't mean that I have to like it. I can be proud of what they do, and still hurt sometimes. I can be supportive of the path they have chosen, and still admit it doesn't always make Me do the dance of joy.

I just want folks to remember that it really can be both.

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RE: Afghanistan - 3/4/2009 11:27:04 PM

Vendaval

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

   17,000 are headed to Afghanistan in the spring. Less than the generals wanted, but many more than we have there now. Our supply lines are long, and precarious, and the Afghan people have a long history of kicking the invaders out.

It is a very tough area and the people are even tougher just to survive. The Taleban has been growing in power again and is the de-facto government in several areas. (It is late so I am not going to search for the specific areas right now). Add in the Pakistan and Afghtanistan governments' bickerings and the whole situation has the makings of something really nasty.

What are your thoughts on the build-up in Afghanistan?

I really feel for the troops and their loved ones like Lady Pact's family and yours.

Do you think the war will widen in the tribal areas of Pakistan, and become public?

Yes, it will be guerrilla warfare, fighting in mountains regions where most of our troops have little knowledge of the languages, cultures and customs. We are at a decided disadvantage.

What should our goals be to define success in the region?

I have research and thinking to do before answering that one, Heretic. Maybe it is time to rent the DVD of Charlie Wilson's War again.

(edited to add a thought)

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 3/4/2009 11:28:14 PM >

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RE: Afghanistan - 3/4/2009 11:37:25 PM

DomKen

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I've always supported our efforts in Afghanistan and always been at least skeptical of Bush's invasion of Iraq. Nothing has changed. We have to do something about the Taliban and the Pakistani intelligence service that created them and seems to be at the root of much of the turmoil in subcontinent and nearby regions. I want US troops out of Iraq. I understand not wanting to leave a huge mess but I honestly don't think any occupation no matter how long will prevent a resumption of the civil war once we leave.

I know a lot of leftists and besides the dedicated pacifists none oppose the Afghanistan operation and many have been very concerned by our near abandonment of the situation. You will have no trouble finding any number of prominent leftists voicing and writing those same concerns the last 6 years.

IOW the unlinked article is BS if it is as described.

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Post #: 6

RE: Afghanistan - 3/4/2009 11:53:33 PM

slaveboyforyou

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It's already spilled over into the tribal areas. We hear about the occasional covert raid into Pakistan's borders, the drone attacks, airstrikes, etc. But I know we're not hearing about everything that's going on. I do believe that activity will be stepped up, and it may even lead to a large scale, public offensive into the tribal areas by NATO troops.

I do understand Pakistan's reluctance to go into those areas. Pakistan's government is in a very precarious position; their alliance with us is not popular with their citizens. They have a history of coups and political assassinations. They also have their own problems with India. So I haven't been surprised when they've sought truces with tribal leaders, and I wasn't surprised when they agreed to allow tribal leaders to impose Sharia laws in the region. Be that as it may; if we are truly committed to stablilizing Afghanistan, we can't continue to allow Taliban and Al Qaida militants to have a refuge inside the tribal areas.

I supported the invasion, and I see it as our obligation to finish what we started. No doubt about it, it's going to get ugly. I also supported the Iraq invasion, and I am not convinced it's a good idea to pull out next year. We'll see; I hope I'm wrong.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 7

RE: Afghanistan - 3/4/2009 11:56:05 PM

LadyPact

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Vendaval........

Just thanks.

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Post #: 8

RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 12:31:30 AM

hlen5

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To the military personnel and their families on here you have my thanks (I'm a veteran too).

I disagreed with the invasion of Iraq. I believe what Colin Powell said, though "If you break it, you bought it". I don't think we should leave until Iraq can stand on it's own without the probability that Al-queda/the Taliban moving in and taking over.

We encouraged the mujahadeen (sp) to fight the Soviets and then abandoned them. When mid-eastern money started flowing into the country to build madrassas (sp) to radicalize the populace, we ignored the situation.
I agree we need to do what we can to get Afghanistan on it's feet and the Taliban out. We need to help them find alternatives to growing poppies.

I wish that wouldn't require our people to be sent over there.

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Post #: 9

RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 12:39:07 AM

TheUtopian

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quote:

What are your thoughts on the build-up in Afghanistan? Do you think the war will widen in the tribal areas of Pakistan, and become public? What should our goals be to define success in the region?

For me, my disdain for these interventions/imperialistic adventures has zero to do with being a peacenik, pacifist, or an ooh-rah redneck for that matter....

My disdain is based mostly on the premise that interventionism of this type in no way benefits the average, middle-class citizen...Yet at the same time, it will be the average middle-class citizen, that down the line, carries the burden and incurs the bulk of the costs for such foolhardy adventurism.

The pretext here, known as ''war on terror '', for me, is a completely fabricated psychological operation whose sole purpose is to promulgate/ foster an environment where the American masses will willingly support imperialism---for the purpose to control and /or steal another country's natural resources and possibly gain/attain some type of superior strategic positioning--- cloaked under the guise of a ''world cop'' type scenario of military interventionism.

quote:

Our supply lines are long, and precarious, and the Afghan people have a long history of kicking the invaders out.

As for this part of your post --- I'll address it with a repost from another similar-type thread I participated in a while back :

Circa 1840 - I point to the invading British Army that attempted to colonize Afghanistan by pushing through the Khyber pass into Kabul only to have 18,000 of their men killed and the Army decimated by a fighting force of indigenous villagers with cross bows,spears and rocks.

Circa 1880 - I point to Chinese Gordon and the invading British Army, again, this time with a push to take over The Sudan at Khartoum. The indigenous peoples with inferior weapons /fighting power, killed Gordon and kicked the shit out of British Army

Circa 1900 - I point to the Italians, with a vastly superior invading army trying to conquer Ethiopia at a place called Adowa. The Ethiopian forces made up of peasants and farmers destroyed the Italians killing over 9000 people

Circa 1915 - I point to the British, again, invading the Ottoman empire {Iraq}, up through Basra. They were trapped and encircled in Kut and forced to surrender with most of the army killed or taken as prisoners of war.

Circa 1954 - I point the Union Army of France in a facet of the Algerian war of 1954 at a place called Dien Bien Phu , { ala Vietnam}. Again a bunch of villagers made-up the Việt Minh fighting force that threw the French out of Indo China {For good}

Circa 1981 - And finally, I point to the Kremlin Army and their feeble attempt to colonize / control Afghanistan --- only to be beaten back and bankrupted by a rag tag group CIA backed insurgents. Stinger missiles, improvised explosives, RPGS and automatic weapons decimated one of the world’s finest armies/ air forces /mechanized forces.

In short, as you already noted : The Taliban/Afghan people are tough.....especially in a rough, mountainous terrain they know far better than a foreign aggressor. Coupled with that, again I'll say that history has shown us numerous times, that it's a virtual impossibility to win a war of occupation against a people whose hearts and minds are greatly opposed to their occupiers.

At the end of the day.....The money and the mindset to fund something so long and protracted, just is not going to be there......

- R

< Message edited by TheUtopian -- 3/5/2009 12:40:48 AM >

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Post #: 10

RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 12:50:41 AM

corysub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

It's already spilled over into the tribal areas. We hear about the occasional covert raid into Pakistan's borders, the drone attacks, airstrikes, etc. But I know we're not hearing about everything that's going on. I do believe that activity will be stepped up, and it may even lead to a large scale, public offensive into the tribal areas by NATO troops.

I do understand Pakistan's reluctance to go into those areas. Pakistan's government is in a very precarious position; their alliance with us is not popular with their citizens. They have a history of coups and political assassinations. They also have their own problems with India. So I haven't been surprised when they've sought truces with tribal leaders, and I wasn't surprised when they agreed to allow tribal leaders to impose Sharia laws in the region. Be that as it may; if we are truly committed to stablilizing Afghanistan, we can't continue to allow Taliban and Al Qaida militants to have a refuge inside the tribal areas.

I supported the invasion, and I see it as our obligation to finish what we started. No doubt about it, it's going to get ugly. I also supported the Iraq invasion, and I am not convinced it's a good idea to pull out next year. We'll see; I hope I'm wrong.

It really is a tough call, I agree. I too supported both the overthrow of the Taliban in Afganistan who supported and gave Usama a base from which to plot the 9/11 attack. I also supported George Bush and te pre-emptive attack and overthrow of Sadaam. I remember those pre-invasion days, the dust of the Towers still in the air, and the pain of loss still a constant feeling. Sadaam, at the time, was belligerent, threatening, had earned over a dozen UN resolutions and finally was warned of war and the Iraq war. At that time Sadaam had been successful in turning American allies against the idea of invasion (France and Germany), joining Russia and China in that regard.
George Bush stood in the ruins of the fallen Towers and it tore his heart apart. He truly felt the pain of everyone who had lost a loved one, and really believe he made a strong private vow that such a debacle would never again happen on his watch. Sadaam arraogance fueled the worlds view that he indeed had WMD's. or was on his way towards acquiring that capability.

Fast forward to today, we can rehash the do's and don'ts of events, attribute blame, whatever, but where do we go from here is the question of the today. Iraq, although the creation of the British, is nevertheless a "country". I have no idea what Afganistan is other than a bunch of tribes who don't get along but come together against a common external enemy. While I think Biden's recommendation that Iraq be split up into three different countries was not a great idea, I wonder if possibly Afganistan would be less of a threat if it was turned into a quasi-confederation of with the 34 provinces turned into seperate "tribal jurisdictions" with Kabul a neutral zone for a small government focusing on the commonality of interests among the clans and tribes, but leaving the actual control in the hands of local elders.

I don't think there is any way that U.S. forces can be defeated in Afganistan, However, I'm not sure there will ever be such as thing as victory as I believe can, in fact, be shown in Iraq. The points made here about the fragility of the Pakistani government are right on target, and the horror of that country with it's nuclear capability being in disarray is something I don't want to face.

Bottom line, I think Obama should consider a two pronged attack co-ordinated with Pakistan..the first to ferret out and destroy Usama and the remains of his people in the tribal zone, along with massive U.S. aid, supplies, equipment to provide a better standard of living for the people in those zones to try to turn them to our side, even if only temporary. We will have than brought closure to 9/11, possibly avert a coup or civil war in Pakistan, and can get our troopers out of their and back home.

Off topic but just wondering, other than the once or twice a century war in central Europe, ...why are wars fought in some of the most God forsaken places on earth...extreme weather, hot deserts, steamy jungles, treacherous mountains and caves..? I'm thinking maybe we should just let them fight among themselves, and eat each other if that's what they want to do.

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 11

RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 7:02:50 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
IOW the unlinked article is BS if it is as described.

I left the link out for several reasons. Mainly because I wanted people's thoughts on one particular item from it. I'm happy to provide the reference.

Ken, you have mail.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 12

RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 7:12:26 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

The pretext here, known as ''war on terror '', for me, is a completely fabricated psychological operation whose sole purpose is to promulgate/ foster an environment where the American masses will willingly support imperialism---for the purpose to control and /or steal another country's natural resources and possibly gain/attain some type of superior strategic positioning--- cloaked under the guise of a ''world cop'' type scenario of military interventionism.

I agree with this. Do you happen to remember who described Afghanistan as 'the graveyard of empires'?

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Post #: 13

RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 7:26:20 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
IOW the unlinked article is BS if it is as described.

I left the link out for several reasons. Mainly because I wanted people's thoughts on one particular item from it. I'm happy to provide the reference.

Ken, you have mail.

I'll respect your desire but this is seems to be the pertinent part and it is full on BS.

quote:

While Bush was President, millions of people around the world wanted us to lose the Iraq war, apparently because they hated George Bush. It was also obvious to me, during periods between war stints while traveling inside the United States, Europe and Asia, that many people relished the idea of so many Americans being killed in Iraq, and the idea that Iraqis were dying, because they hated George Bush. Most of the American “anti-war” people were not “anti-war” at all. If they were truly anti-war, they would be protesting the deployment of 17,000 more troops to Afghanistan. They were anti-George Bush. And today we have a similar species of thought, only it’s anti-Obama from some of the very people who previously complained about the anti-Bush reflex.

I know no one who relished any death in Iraq. No one I know in the anti Iraq war movement relishes any death.

There are and always have been people who were anti Iraq war but pro the Afghanistan war. The reason is quite clear, Iraq was not needed to protect our nation from terrorists while Afghanistan clearly was needed.

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Post #: 14

RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 7:38:31 AM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

Do you happen to remember who described Afghanistan as 'the graveyard of empires'?

Thank you Kittin, now I'm sitting here racking my brain trying to remember who said that. The first person that pops in my head is......Rudyard Kipling?

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 15

RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 8:21:10 AM

Vendaval

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Lady Pact,

You are most welcome.

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Post #: 16

RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 8:31:10 AM

Vendaval

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Fast Reply -

Here is the link to the BBC Reporter's Log dated 9/11/08 on the situation.
There are 5 reporters, 2 reporting from Afghanistan, 2 from Pakistan and 1 from Washington D.C. The whole report is worth reading but I will include one excerpt here -

"Owen Bennett-Jones, Islamabad, Pakistan:"

"There have been a number of American strikes in the border areas in the last few days, which have upset many people, although I have yet to see any street protests.
However, I think there is no doubt that if the Americans came in in a very public and overt way, with troops on the ground in significant numbers, there would be an almost unanimous rejection of that approach.

It would also stir up the tribal areas. I have just come back from Khyber, talking to some of the tribal elders there and they are absolutely clear that if they are presented with a choice between the Taleban and America, they will choose the Taleban.
They will see it as an attack on Islam.

There is rampant anti-Americanism here and that does suggest that America is losing the battle for hearts and minds.

When I spoke to Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Makhdoom Shah Mahmood Qureshi, he said such attacks were unproductive and alienated the local population.

Pakistan's new President, Ali Asif Zardari, has only been in the job a few days and he is already finding out how difficut it is to run the country.

He's got the Americans asking him to fight harder - he says he is fighting hard.

He's got the army suspicious that he is too pro-American and may have given the green light to some of these recent attacks, which would explain why the army chiefs came out saying this is absolutely unacceptable.

And he's also got public opinion which is rampantly anti-American, so it's quite a difficult job being President of Pakistan."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2008/09/080911_reporters.shtml

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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Post #: 17

RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 12:33:46 PM

BoiJen

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I think we're gonna loose a lot more troops than they're planning on. Afghanistan is not the place to wage traditional war. It's just not.

Last time my buddy was over there he lost 6 men. When we was in Iraq he lost none. He's scheduled to leave for Afghanistan again this fall. I'm scared for his life. He's the best man I've ever known...and I know I don't know all men...

I wish...I wish that our military leaders knew better than to take this action in this manner.

I'm not a person for prayers but there isn't a day that goes by that I don't pray for every single one of our people over there.

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Post #: 18

RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 12:58:34 PM

MarsBonfire

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Nah... it's all okay! John McCain will share his "secret plan" on how to capture OBL, (you remember... the one he talked about during the campaign: "I know how to find him, my friends... I know how to stop these terrorists.") and put the Taliban out of business forever. He'll share this plan in the patriotic spirit that all republicans have, with the President, and we'll all be home for beer and burgers by the summer of 2010!

(sarcasam)

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Post #: 19

RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 2:24:49 PM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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It'd be a lot cheaper to drop nuclear weapons on it on a day when the prevailing wind is blowing towards Pakistan.

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