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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 3:49:56 PM   
domiguy


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Could never understand the war in Iraq.  Couldn't understand how it seemed that when we had quieted the Taliban in Afghanistan we took our eye off of the ball.

There was never a strong case for war after 9/11.  Obviously if you were going to strike Afghanistan would have been the target.  Just to shut down the terrorist bases.  That might have been the end of it. 

No one wants us to be the world's police force.  I am saddened and hope the best for those that fought and continue to fight in Iraq.  What a waste.

I hate the phrase  "The war on terror."  Fuck, it is a mess. Exactly who are we fighting and what is the enemies agenda? Rather hard to discern.

I just don't want to see Americans throwing away their lives and limbs in a futile effort.

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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 4:04:36 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheUtopian


As for this part of your post --- I'll address it with a repost from another similar-type thread I participated in a while back :

Circa 1840 - I point to the invading British Army that attempted to colonize Afghanistan by pushing through the Khyber pass into Kabul only to have 18,000 of their men killed and the Army decimated by a fighting force of indigenous villagers with cross bows,spears and rocks.  


Your facts are totally incorrect. Only 4,500 of the estimated 16,500 were soldiers, there were 12,000 civilians made up of women and children camp followers, and civil servants and such. Your rock throwing natives had Jezail muskets, with a range of 500 yards, far longer than the 150 yards of the Brown Bess. Most of the retreating column was picked of by sniper fire as they retreated through the passes.

quote:



Circa 1880 - I point to Chinese Gordon and the invading British Army, again, this time with a push to take over The Sudan at Khartoum.  The indigenous peoples with inferior weapons /fighting power, killed Gordon and kicked the shit out of British Army  



Gordon was working at the request of the Egyptian Khedive, to fight the mahdist ( sp ) rebels, and as far as I know there were no British troops in Khartoum. The relief forces arrived two days after he had been killed. If you must state this stuff at least get your facts right.

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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 4:05:08 PM   
StrangerThan


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I never understood the logic behind sending 150,000 troops to Iraq where Bin Laden wasn't, and 20,000 to Afghanistan where he was. Those numbers can be cherry picked at different points over the past few years so don't come along and crucify me for missing 10k here or there. But I do remember at one point, those were the  numbers listed as being in the respective fields.

As someone who served in the military and served in the middle east, I don't see it as much more than an ongoing police action. Nothing is going to change in that hell-hole until perspectives and people change. That's not going to change until they have some ability to crawl out of the utter poverty and ignorance under which many of them live -and even then, the time will most likely be measured in generations, not years.

I have no love nor hatred for folks who live there. Having seen the living conditions from Pakistan to Iraq for many people, I can understand the seething undercurrent of violence, the dislike of the west, and how extremists are able to attract so many followers. The truth is a great many of them would live in peace if they had the chance. Another truth is that in many of the middle eastern states, extremists are not going to stamped out until other forms of government are instituted. I'll grant Bush that much vision. His mistake was thinking that we could and should be the cause of it.

And as to the point of your post, I agree we'll see a change. After all, Obama is "cleaning up" after Bush.

< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 3/5/2009 4:06:05 PM >

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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 7:37:28 PM   
MasterShake69


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Imagine if Bush had attacked the Serbs like Clinton did in the late 90's.  Imagine if Bush had faulty CIA Intel and bombed the Chinese embassy killing 3 Chinese like Clinton did.  Imagine if the CIA claimed the mistake was because they used outdated maps.  Imagine if there was evidence proving that the US government knew it was the Chinese embassy and it wasn't a mistake.

Not many on the left were against Clintons actions then.  what about when Clinton attacked Iraq for hiding there WMD.  Was that Intel also bad too ;)
History repeats itself with liberals
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     I ran across an interesting article today, suggesting that we are going to see a major reversal in sentiment regarding our military actions overseas.  The author suggested that much of the "anti-war" protest of recent years was nothing more than "anti-Bush," in disguise, and that this would become obvious when the same people had no problem at all with Obama's military adventures.

     Being a fair-handed fellow (at least in my impression of his writings), he went on to say that he thinks many of the people who were all in favor of Bush's militarism will now reverse as well, and oppose the expansion of the war in Afghanistan and Pakistan (AfPak).

      At the level where our discussion is driven by nothing but partisan hackery, I think he is absolutely right, but my agreement stopped there.  For the actual pacifists and peaceniks, I think they will keep right on doing what they do.  They'll just find it a hell of a lot harder to draw the media out to their events, and get invited to the good cocktail parties.  I also find it pretty hard to imagine ooh-rah rednecks shrieking that our troops are murderous savages (though they will surely hate the CIC).

    Another problem I have with his premise (again, beyond the basic pavlovian partisan response) is the assumption that support in one situation would automatically imply support for the other.  I see the two conflicts as being very different situations.  Iraq is ours.  We made that situation happen, and I have never felt it was something we could abandon to chaos.  Afghanistan, on the other hand, made itself our problem.  We are not nearly so obligated there.   This has been my position for quite some time.

    17,000 are headed to Afghanistan in the spring.  Less than the generals wanted, but many more than we have there now.  Our supply lines are long, and precarious, and the Afghan people have a long history of kicking the invaders out.

     What are your thoughts on the build-up in Afghanistan?  Do you think the war will widen in the tribal areas of Pakistan, and become public?  What should our goals be to define success in the region? 

    And yes, Bush fucked the whole thing up, and Obama inherited the mess.  The questions shouldn't be affected by that.

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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 7:43:17 PM   
MasterShake69


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what are the natural resources that we have taken from IRAQ?
what are the natural reosurces that we have taken from Afghanistan?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheUtopian

The pretext here, known as ''war on terror '', for me, is a completely fabricated psychological operation whose sole purpose is to promulgate/ foster an environment where the American masses will willingly support imperialism---for the purpose to control and /or steal another country's natural resources and possibly gain/attain some type of superior strategic positioning--- cloaked under the guise of a ''world cop'' type scenario of military interventionism.



I agree with this. Do you happen to remember who described Afghanistan as 'the graveyard of empires'?

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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 7:46:34 PM   
MasterShake69


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the secret plan was to threaten the Iranians, that we wont stop Israel from attacking you(iran) unless you get OBL for us.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Nah... it's all okay! John McCain will share his "secret plan" on how to capture OBL, (you remember... the one he talked about during the campaign: "I know how to find him, my friends... I know how to stop these terrorists.") and put the Taliban out of business forever. He'll share this plan in the patriotic spirit that all republicans have, with the President, and we'll all be home for beer and burgers by the summer of 2010!

(sarcasam)

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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 7:47:31 PM   
Vendaval


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Here are some basic stats on Afghanistan that gives an idea of the situation's complexity.

"RFE/RL's Radio Free Afghanistan"
March 6, 2009

"Population
32.7 million

Ethnic Groups:
Pashtun 42%
Tajik 27%
Hazara 9%
Uzbek 9%
Aimak 4%
Turkmen 3%
Baloch 2%
Other 4%

Religions:
Sunni Muslim 80%
Shi'a Muslim 19%
Other 1%

Languages:
Dari 50%
Pashto 35%
Turkic languages (primarily
Uzbek & Turkmen) 11%
30 minor languages
(primarily Balochi & Pashai) 4% "

http://www.rferl.org/section/Afghanistan/149.html

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 7:51:02 PM   
MasterShake69


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we didn't take the eye off the ball we gave the war to our NATO Allies to handle.  You know the same allies that liberals wanted us to rely on when invading Iraq.  It seems our NATO allies couldn't handle the situation and turned it into a big mess.  What's that giant white and green objects moving??  Its just Canadians with the wrong color camouflage ;)




quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Could never understand the war in Iraq.  Couldn't understand how it seemed that when we had quieted the Taliban in Afghanistan we took our eye off of the ball.

There was never a strong case for war after 9/11.  Obviously if you were going to strike Afghanistan would have been the target.  Just to shut down the terrorist bases.  That might have been the end of it. 

No one wants us to be the world's police force.  I am saddened and hope the best for those that fought and continue to fight in Iraq.  What a waste.

I hate the phrase  "The war on terror."  Fuck, it is a mess. Exactly who are we fighting and what is the enemies agenda? Rather hard to discern.

I just don't want to see Americans throwing away their lives and limbs in a futile effort.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 7:58:19 PM   
MasterShake69


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Most of the war in Afghanistan in 2001-02 was outsource to groups like the Northern Alliance.  That's why we were so successful in waging that war.  We weren't seen as invaders and just as liberators because American ground forces was kept at a low level.

Now where is OBL???  Obama made it seem that Bush was unwilling to go after him in N pakistan.  So when will Obama decide to capture him ;)  Remember from N pakistan you could even end up in china because they share a boarder.  China also has a muslim terrorist problems too so OBL could hook up with one of those groups.  Imagine if Obama snuck into china nad has been there all this time.  The smartets place to hide is where people would be least likely to look.


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

I never understood the logic behind sending 150,000 troops to Iraq where Bin Laden wasn't, and 20,000 to Afghanistan where he was. Those numbers can be cherry picked at different points over the past few years so don't come along and crucify me for missing 10k here or there. But I do remember at one point, those were the  numbers listed as being in the respective fields.

As someone who served in the military and served in the middle east, I don't see it as much more than an ongoing police action. Nothing is going to change in that hell-hole until perspectives and people change. That's not going to change until they have some ability to crawl out of the utter poverty and ignorance under which many of them live -and even then, the time will most likely be measured in generations, not years.

I have no love nor hatred for folks who live there. Having seen the living conditions from Pakistan to Iraq for many people, I can understand the seething undercurrent of violence, the dislike of the west, and how extremists are able to attract so many followers. The truth is a great many of them would live in peace if they had the chance. Another truth is that in many of the middle eastern states, extremists are not going to stamped out until other forms of government are instituted. I'll grant Bush that much vision. His mistake was thinking that we could and should be the cause of it.

And as to the point of your post, I agree we'll see a change. After all, Obama is "cleaning up" after Bush.

(in reply to StrangerThan)
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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 8:25:24 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

History repeats itself with liberals




       I don't find that to be a partisan sort of behavior.

_____________________________

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 8:31:29 PM   
Vendaval


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kittenSol and slaveboy,
 
I did some checking and there is a poem by Kipling that describes the battlefield in Afghanistan once the fighting stopped and the locals came out.  Tom Wolfe is also mentioned in regards to the phrase but I cannot locate the exact origin so far.


Afghanistan, Graveyard of Empires.

Publication: Foreign Affairs
Publication Date: 01-NOV-01
Author: Bearden, Milton

"In the aftermath of the second British misadventure in Afghanistan, Rudyard Kipling penned his immortal lines on the role of the local women in tidying up the battlefields:

"The Young British Soldier", 1892

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains
And the women come out to cut up what remains
Jest roll to your rifle an' blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-10275078_ITM


quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Do you happen to remember who described Afghanistan as 'the graveyard of empires'?


Thank you Kittin, now I'm sitting here racking my brain trying to remember who said that.  The first person that pops in my head is......Rudyard Kipling?


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 8:32:51 PM   
Vendaval


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Humans have a way of repeating history, no matter their political or religious belief systems of lack thereof.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

History repeats itself with liberals




      I don't find that to be a partisan sort of behavior.


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 8:38:22 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

kittenSol and slaveboy,
 
I did some checking and there is a poem by Kipling that describes the battlefield in Afghanistan once the fighting stopped and the locals came out.  Tom Wolfe is also mentioned in regards to the phrase but I cannot locate the exact origin so far.


Afghanistan, Graveyard of Empires.

Publication: Foreign Affairs
Publication Date: 01-NOV-01
Author: Bearden, Milton

"In the aftermath of the second British misadventure in Afghanistan, Rudyard Kipling penned his immortal lines on the role of the local women in tidying up the battlefields:

"The Young British Soldier", 1892

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains
And the women come out to cut up what remains
Jest roll to your rifle an' blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier."

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-10275078_ITM


Yeah, I knew this poem Ven.  It's probably why Kipling popped into my head when Kittin asked about the term, "graveyard of empires."  I honestly don't remember who coined the phrase. 

(in reply to Vendaval)
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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 8:39:52 PM   
Vendaval


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It's a new poem to me.  "Flanders Field" was the war poem we always had for speech competitions.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 8:58:43 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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The first one I remember from 10th grade English was Wilfred Owen's Dulce Et Decorum Est:
 
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

 
Owen was a English soldier in the First World War.  He died in combat a week before the Armstice was signed. 

(in reply to Vendaval)
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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 9:03:03 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

kittenSol and slaveboy,
 
I did some checking and there is a poem by Kipling that describes the battlefield in Afghanistan once the fighting stopped and the locals came out.  Tom Wolfe is also mentioned in regards to the phrase but I cannot locate the exact origin so far.



I don't think it goes back as far as Kipling. I've read a lot of Kipling, and that's the kind of phrase I think I would have remembered, because it's so sweeping and majestic. The earliest I remember hearing it was right after 9/11, when a former CIA operative with extensive experience in Afghanistan wrote a book or a magazine article with that as the title. I remember seeing him all over my TV for what seemed like weeks, talkking about it during the run-up to the conflict. I can't remember the guy's name; i want to say Beardman or something like that. Michael Beardman is what keeps coming to me, but I just googled that and nothing came up. I'm pretty sure it's something like that. Maybe that'll be enough to ring someone else's bell.


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Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 9:10:47 PM   
Vendaval


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That is powerful.  The thought that it was from WWI came to mind because of poisonous gas reference.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
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RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 9:13:20 PM   
Vendaval


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Panda,
 
There were some references to a CIA operative penning a book with that phrase as part of the title.  Makes for a fun bit of research, looking for this type of trivia.
 
Another interesting point is that both Alexander the Great and Ghengis Khan did not want to mess with the Afghan tribes.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Afghanistan - 3/5/2009 9:40:42 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Panda,
 
There were some references to a CIA operative penning a book with that phrase as part of the title.  Makes for a fun bit of research, looking for this type of trivia.
 
Another interesting point is that both Alexander the Great and Ghengis Khan did not want to mess with the Afghan tribes.


I thought Ghengis Khan did invade Afghanistan - I thought I remembered reading that they had once had an extensive and highly sophisticated irrigation system, but  that he destroyed much of it and that the lowlands never regained their agricultural productivity afterward. Maybe I'm remembering that wrong.

But I don't remember hearing that about Alexander. I thought he pulled up short of Afghanistan more because he, well, ran  out of... greatness. I'm not surprised that you're right, though - the point stands, that all through history it was pretty common knowledge to give the Afghanis all the elbow room they wanted. They never had any hegemonic ambitions that I can recall (probably because whenever they weren't fighting off invaders, they were frantically trying to annihilate each other), but they wanted to be left alone. They made it pretty clear to everyone - "You people do whatever you want on that side of the mountains, but keep in mind that if you try to bring any of it over to this side, we'll do whatever we want." Most of their neighbors got the message. I don't think anyone's ever effectively controlled the country, really; even the Afghainis. I know it was part of the Persian Empire back in about the 5th or 6th Century BC,  but even as far back as that, the Persians were already finding out that holding the deed and actually managing the tenants were not exactly the same thing. 


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Afghanistan - 3/6/2009 12:07:28 AM   
TheUtopian


Posts: 259
Status: offline



quote:


Gordon was working at the request of the Egyptian Khedive, to fight the mahdist ( sp ) rebels, and as far as I know there were no British troops in Khartoum. The relief forces arrived two days after he had been killed. If you must state this stuff at least get your facts right.


I knew I was in danger of striking a nerve of nationalist....

Whether they were with Gordon by proxy or directly under the banner of the crown ; they were there....and they got thoroughly wupped ----Like it or not.

http://american_almanac.tripod.com/mahdia.htm

quote:


Your facts are totally incorrect. Only 4,500 of the estimated 16,500 were soldiers, there were 12,000 civilians made up of women and children camp followers, and civil servants and such. Your rock throwing natives had Jezail muskets, with a range of 500 yards, far longer than the 150 yards of the Brown Bess. Most of the retreating column was picked of by sniper fire as they retreated through the passes.


Give me a break....You speak of some of the indigenous fighters with 500-yard muskets?  The British had artillery and still couldn't win! And whether you wanna skue the numbers and parse out women/children and civil servants---as you are calling them---is really inconsequential---- because it was still an invading force bent on conquest. 

Anyways....what a waste precious human life, money and time. And again, if the ''war on terror '' had any true credibility, our main focus would have been to drasticly improve all internal security measures regards the outer perimeter of our country - and yet we've seen very little progress since 9/11.

It's my feeling that until the drug cartels sieze and control PEMEX, and possibly develop friendlier relationships with the more militant, left-leaning governments of the south,we won't see much in the way of intervention from Obama or other future administrations.


Edited to add : The clusterfuck in Mexico got that way under a neo-conservative-themed Mexican presidency/administration, with very close ties to the Bush administration - Yet Bush never raised an eyebrow during his entire eight year tenure.







- R

< Message edited by TheUtopian -- 3/6/2009 12:20:58 AM >


_____________________________

Vae Victus! - Woe to the conquered....

My tears are the cure for cancer - I sweat testosterone, bleed black, and piss excellence.

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