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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 8:20:25 AM   
DedicatedDom40


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I don't give a shit what color his hair is, all I care about right now is what color the Dow average is displayed in at the top of my MSNBC homepage - and it's been red almost every damned day since he took office, largely because he is not keeping his eye on the damned ball.




This pop of the stock bubble was long in coming, and I can't lay that at his feet. 

We gutted the manufacturing sector, focusing instead on a financial sector that had come to monoplize our economy. After all, why make money making physical things when we can make money inventing goods on paper.  And now, all the elaborate financial engineering is coming down with a crash.  There is no way what remains of our economy could ever justify a 12,000 dow.  It should be in the 3,000 to 4,000 range. The math doesnt add up otherwise.

I think most of the people who tie the Dow's performance since January to Obama's actions alone are angry for buying in at 10,000 and who are running away at 6,000.







< Message edited by DedicatedDom40 -- 3/6/2009 8:21:40 AM >

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 8:22:24 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Thanks beth.

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 8:57:28 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I don't give a shit what color his hair is, all I care about right now is what color the Dow average is displayed in at the top of my MSNBC homepage - and it's been red almost every damned day since he took office, largely because he is not keeping his eye on the damned ball.




This pop of the stock bubble was long in coming, and I can't lay that at his feet. 

We gutted the manufacturing sector, focusing instead on a financial sector that had come to monoplize our economy. After all, why make money making physical things when we can make money inventing goods on paper.  And now, all the elaborate financial engineering is coming down with a crash.  There is no way what remains of our economy could ever justify a 12,000 dow.  It should be in the 3,000 to 4,000 range. The math doesnt add up otherwise.

I think most of the people who tie the Dow's performance since January to Obama's actions alone are angry for buying in at 10,000 and who are running away at 6,000.








Of the two main points, that last is an astute one indeed. And I think it's true there's a lot of that in what we're seeing. I'll confess I got caught with my own pants down more than I like to admit over the last few weeks, but the way I look at it I'm still up over the last year, and even if I were down a lot, I'd still be better off than a lot of people who've been hit much harder. So even though I'm quite concerned about the market, I'm not angry, because I had a chance a month ago to get farther out than I did. I'm disappointed at the losses, but still a happy man. I took a gamble, knew the risks, and lost. Sometimes it works out that way; you just put it behind you and move on with a lesson learned. However, at the same time, I do understand the anger and the frustration that other investors feel as they watch their already-ravaged portfolios become even further depleted. Not saying I validate their anger, because they took the same calculated risk that i did and have to live with their decision the same way I do. I'm just saying i understand their emotional reaction.

As for the first point, about the proper valuation of the market, I can't argue with you. I don't know if you're right, but I certainly can't say you're wrong. It's a very good argument. I'm no expert analyst - I'm just an average investor - but more and more the last few months, I've become more convinced that the proper valuation for the Dow may be a lot closer to 6000 than 7000 or 8000. And the longer this goes on, the more 4000 seems like a realistic possibility, because the nature of such a catastrophic economic collapse is that it becomes a self-perpetuating cycle. You have to blend individual human psychology into theoretical mathematical models, and it's like trying to factor a Shakespeare sonnet as a fixed value into a calculus equation. Whatever you come up with is not going to be anything you can call an absolute, verifiable answer. The worse the economy gets, or the worse it is perceived to be, the more people change their spending and savings habits. As they save more, consumer spending (the real engine that drives a recovery) drops further, which cuts corporate profits. Which lowers stock values. And causes companies to let go of more workers, which further reduces consumer spending and frightens people into saving even more money because they're worried they may lose their jobs too, which  - what do you know - reduces corporate profits and lowers stock values.

So I dunno. 3000? Christ, I hope you're wrong. 4000? Well I still hope you're wrong, of course, but with the direction this thing is going, 3 or 4 months from now we may very well have been driven down into the range where that's the proper valuation for the Dow. A year ago, i would never have believed it. Now? I would be gravely concerned, but not exactly shocked by the impossibility of it all. I won't say I'm expecting it, but I will say that if it does get to that point, I won't have lost much more money. I will have cleaned out my positions long before that.

But, having said all that, I still go back to my main  point - none of this is going to be fixed until the financial sector is fixed. Until that fundamental weakness is addressed, and positive steps are being taken toward fixing that problem, everything else we do is just delaying the inevitable and throwing good money after bad. No matter how this all turns out - no matter where the Dow finally bottoms and finds its realistic valuation - we can't get there until we get out of where we are now. And I have yet to see any substantive plan from Obama on how he plans to do that.


< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 3/6/2009 9:07:43 AM >

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 9:45:14 AM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		It is simply what he said he would do.  Now if one truly believes in accountability you might have a problem with some of the pork attached to these "bailouts."

I have no problem with him trying to fix health care...It is sooooo fucked up.

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 9:57:05 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		In Bush's administration it was 1 step forward...oops fucked up...two steps back. It is so refreshing to have a leader that thinks before he leaps. He knows there will need to be some accommodation in the form of pork...It is the way it works. He knows he is new so he surrounded himself with political savvy people.

He knows this is the time to push...all presidents have a grace period where he knows the people want the same thing as he. But he also knows with the opposition fighting him at every turn that grace period will end soon enough.

Almost all useful  presidential legislation is passed in the first year of their presidency.

Butch

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 10:04:10 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
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Status: offline 		Actually Mia- Obama's drive to fix health care is actually a pretty good idea- and it's timely.

What's going to get us out of this mess?  The worst hemorrhage is jobs- unemployment is brutal on an economy.  Businesses can't survive by providing handouts, so what we really need to do is get people working again.  The Dow is piffle- the market responds to policy-it shouldn't try and set policy or we wind up where we are now.  Housing costs- again market driven and while the correction is wrenching- losing a job is a worse catastrophe if you can't get another one.

Who can create jobs?  Large firms?  Well, they're shedding jobs to please shareholders even if they don't need to.  The defense industry is horribly bloated, the auto industry is going to need to restructure majorly and will probably go to increased automation and we've already got too many people asking if you want fries with that burger?  Nope- we need to create new businesses.  What are the road blocks to creating or expanding a business?  Taxes can be ugly- but when you're just starting out, health care is far worse.  Getting capital would be good, but if you've got customers, you may have a fighting prayer for that.

I see there are three requirements for starting new businesses today
1)  Uncle Sam needs to be a first customer to prime the pump.
2)  Need to have access to some capital- solving the financial crunch would help.
3)  Need to lower startup costs- and that's healthcare.  (or you run bare- very tough if you've got a family.)

Health care costs far more than labor costs have made US businesses uncompetitive.  And health care costs are largely a function of our legal system.  Can we please have a moratorium on criminal charges for shooting lawyers?


Sam

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 10:36:51 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
Health care costs far more than labor costs have made US businesses uncompetitive.

As a group, the largest beneficiary of Nationalized health care would be industry and business. Take away the employee and pensioners' health care liability from the Auto Industry and you don't need any other 'bail out'.

Allowing choice won't help. Sure, I'll still choose to pay for 'private' coverage, but my employees won't have the same opportunity. Personally, about $3500/month would go right to the bottom line. Instead of me paying for my employees health care - they will, you will; paid for though taxes. I'm sure the government will run it as efficiently and effectively as they do all the other bureaucracies they've set up; like Social Security.

Good deal, that $3,500/month will pay for a lot more 'marketing' trips to Vegas. Hell, I'll even be a 'hero' and give them all of them a $50/month raise in the deal.

quote:

 And health care costs are largely a function of our legal system. 
Exactly! This ruling serves your point and indicates it won't go away anytime soon.
quote:

In a closely watched case, the court ruled 6-3 that patients can file lawsuits against drug companies in state courts for inadequate or flawed safety warnings, even though the Food and Drug Administration is responsible for reviewing and approving drug labels.
The case involved a Vermont musician who lost her right forearm after she suffered complications from a drug made by Wyeth. A jury awarded her $6.7 million. Source: YOU SAID IT COULD DO THAT BUT I DIDN'T THINK IT WOULD
Hard to believe that the wording wasn't 'strong enough' constitutes a valid argument. Only in a land where the lawyers to clients ratio is approaching 1:1 can you get a ruling like that. Of course, the plurality of lawyers in Congress makes it unlikely that this situation will change in the foreseeable future.

However, at least the 'insurance' company being sued will be the US Government. Their money printing skills will enable them to pay claims and the law suit lottery will continue, and based upon the expectation of government managed health care - it will probably expand. 

quote:

Can we please have a moratorium on criminal charges for shooting lawyers?
Great idea - again, no other 'bail out' or 'stimulus' may be required if someone acts upon your suggestion. Well, it is a HUGE expenditure budget being passed and signed soon; maybe someone can bury such a moratorium under one of the many piles of 'pork'.

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 10:41:00 AM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

For example, we've just found out in written documents that the Bush administration, within days of the 9-11 attacks, decided to use that crisis as a means to vastly increase the powers of the executive branch.



Actually there were a lot of folks that were aware of that as it was happening - some of whom were quite vocal. Mostly they were written off as "conspiracy nuts" and few paid attention.

It is my expectation that we'll see a similar dynamic at play here. It will be several years before an accurate perspective and understanding of the economic mess we're in develops for most. Some of the folks that see it now are already being written of as "nuts."

Uncle Nasty



Political leaders on the Hill knew about the NSA's program including Bob Graham
and Jay Rockerfeller,among others.  If they had a view that it was criminal, why didn't they go to the Majority leader and push for hearings and judicial review? 

Obama maybe finding out that possibly his administration might want to continue some of these NSA programs that no doubt saved lives, even if some calls between foreign journalists or aid workers might have occured.  I'm not worried about my freedoms being impaired by agressive Intel...just the opposite.  I would be very conccerned if we closed these operations down and went "blindly" down the road chasing our windmills like Don Quixote.

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 12:18:25 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

He's trying to push thru as much of his agenda as possible before the midterm election in 2010.
And that is wrong for what reason.
A majority of voters elected him to the office based on his "agenda" .Seems the thing to do .


And his agenda appears to follow Bush's agenda, x10 I see no change here, nor do I see hope.

Look at his advisers, look at his cabinet, where's the "change"?

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 2:41:40 PM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		Merc

With backs up against the wall- I'm hoping that significant change in health care does indeed include tort reform. It's not that hard a fix-

1)  Appoint an independent board to review patient claims of medical malpractice- one not made up entirely of MDs.
2)  Use the same system that works for vaccines.  Assume that there will be adverse events in medicine which are paid for by a pool (yes, collected by the gov't- why give the money to a private insurance company which will just need to be bailed out when a claim comes in?)- fixed payouts- no lawyers needed.  If the physician came in drunk- they lose their license.  If it was a human error- you get paid out of the pool.

This will allow physicians to practice reasonable medicine again- not worrying about what the lawyer's going to say if they didn't order the test for the one in a million disease that their imbecile patient probably didn't have anyway.

Portable electronic health records will help to.

Sam

Alternatively I'll fall back on plan A-open season on lawyers....and cash bonuses paid for malpractice lawyers in Texas.

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 2:47:01 PM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

For example, we've just found out in written documents that the Bush administration, within days of the 9-11 attacks, decided to use that crisis as a means to vastly increase the powers of the executive branch.



Actually there were a lot of folks that were aware of that as it was happening - some of whom were quite vocal. Mostly they were written off as "conspiracy nuts" and few paid attention.

It is my expectation that we'll see a similar dynamic at play here. It will be several years before an accurate perspective and understanding of the economic mess we're in develops for most. Some of the folks that see it now are already being written of as "nuts."

Uncle Nasty



Including Bob Graham and Jay Rockerfeller, and the rest of the democrat leadership.  All of the senior members of the House and Senate Intelligence Committee's were in the loop from the first days of  NSA wiretapping program. 

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 3:08:18 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		Of course, most people missed the point of the Wyeth case entirely. To quote Akedah from another site:

"The case was decided on somewhat different grounds than one might think if one just reads the media coverage.

There's a simple principle involved - Federal legislation cannot preempt state legislation where the purportedly preempting statute does not specify preemption. It was not, therefore, particularly about Wyeth or the FDA
Curiously enough, though, some of the apparently loudest voices in favour of states' rights - Alito, Scalia and Roberts - decided that where one is dealing with an individual against a corporation, the idea of states' rights is to be set aside in deference to the interests of the corporation.
Hence I expect that everyone here who believes in states' rights will be baffled by the dissent, and support the majority, even if their natural instincts would be to favour the right wing of the Supreme Court."

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 3:35:48 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub
I'm not worried about my freedoms being impaired by agressive Intel...just the opposite.  I would be very conccerned if we closed these operations down and went "blindly" down the road chasing our windmills like Don Quixote.



Maybe you don't have as much to worry about in PA...but I'll give you an example of what scares the hell out of me. Right after 9/11, the New York City goverment allowed the searching for any packages, backpack or shopping bag of anyone who was taking the New York City subway at any time by any TA police officer. No probable cause, no warrant, no observable crime. If you went into the subway with a package, the police had the right to search you. What's more, they also announced that they would use any items discovered in that search, whether it dealt with terrorism or not (and in new york that could be a teenager with a joint or a can of spray paint) to arrest and press charges against the person.

Now it is eight years after 9/11 and the policy is still in place. So much for the right against unreasonable search and seizure. I kind of liked the idea of probable cause, warrants, you know..not just stopping and searching anyone your felt like for any reason. I miss it.

I still hold to the words of Ben Franklin..."Those who abandon liberty for the illusion of security deserve neither liberty nor security"....or was he one of those left wingers too?


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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 4:37:33 PM   
DMFParadox


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Maybe you don't have as much to worry about in PA...but I'll give you an example of what scares the hell out of me. Right after 9/11, the New York City goverment allowed the searching for any packages, backpack or shopping bag of anyone who was taking the New York City subway at any time by any TA police officer. No probable cause, no warrant, no observable crime. If you went into the subway with a package, the police had the right to search you. What's more, they also announced that they would use any items discovered in that search, whether it dealt with terrorism or not (and in new york that could be a teenager with a joint or a can of spray paint) to arrest and press charges against the person.

Now it is eight years after 9/11 and the policy is still in place. So much for the right against unreasonable search and seizure. I kind of liked the idea of probable cause, warrants, you know..not just stopping and searching anyone your felt like for any reason. I miss it.

I still hold to the words of Ben Franklin..."Those who abandon liberty for the illusion of security deserve neither liberty nor security"....or was he one of those left wingers too?


That's appalling.

It's time to start really protesting laws such as this one. For example, the Patriot Act. Not just bitching about it in dark corners of the net. This cannot stand in a free nation, or that nation is no longer free.

< Message edited by DMFParadox -- 3/6/2009 4:39:19 PM >

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 4:50:02 PM   
corysub


Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub
I'm not worried about my freedoms being impaired by agressive Intel...just the opposite.  I would be very conccerned if we closed these operations down and went "blindly" down the road chasing our windmills like Don Quixote.



Maybe you don't have as much to worry about in PA...but I'll give you an example of what scares the hell out of me. Right after 9/11, the New York City goverment allowed the searching for any packages, backpack or shopping bag of anyone who was taking the New York City subway at any time by any TA police officer. No probable cause, no warrant, no observable crime. If you went into the subway with a package, the police had the right to search you. What's more, they also announced that they would use any items discovered in that search, whether it dealt with terrorism or not (and in new york that could be a teenager with a joint or a can of spray paint) to arrest and press charges against the person.

Now it is eight years after 9/11 and the policy is still in place. So much for the right against unreasonable search and seizure. I kind of liked the idea of probable cause, warrants, you know..not just stopping and searching anyone your felt like for any reason. I miss it.

I still hold to the words of Ben Franklin..."Those who abandon liberty for the illusion of security deserve neither liberty nor security"....or was he one of those left wingers too?




Hey Spinner...I WAS in NYC on 9/11...and we lost people in the South Tower.  I was never searched on the subway but would have happily let them do their thing if asked to do so.  I did write a letter to the FBI and the NYC police about the stupidity of having National Guards troops outside of the Queens Midtown Tunnel, probably with no ammo in their weapons..As if a terrorist with the mission of driving a truck into the tunnel and blowing it up would stop to be searched!  .I also complained about the "inspection lines" on the incoming traffic side in the morning..while taxicabs and limo's were allowed to go through the "express" bus lanes!  I guess they thought any bombers, thankfully none showed up, would not figure that out and just take a cab and do their dirty business?

There were a lot of stupid things done in the aftermath of 9/11 for mostly politically stupid reasons, as there are after every horrific crisis.  Look what we are passing as stimulus these days, and the President bragging about the 25 jobs created in Columbus, Ohio...Police Officers who were already hired and being trained before there even was a Pelosi "stimulus".    However, eavedropping on people in the mideast who were chatting with one another, including Usama on his cell phone probably, I think saved lives.  Well, that is until the media released the information that we were listening and probably tracking Usama's cell phone conversations.

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 8:12:06 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Actually Mia- Obama's drive to fix health care is actually a pretty good idea- and it's timely.

What's going to get us out of this mess?  The worst hemorrhage is jobs- unemployment is brutal on an economy.  Businesses can't survive by providing handouts, so what we really need to do is get people working again.  The Dow is piffle- the market responds to policy-it shouldn't try and set policy or we wind up where we are now.  Housing costs- again market driven and while the correction is wrenching- losing a job is a worse catastrophe if you can't get another one.

Who can create jobs?  Large firms?  Well, they're shedding jobs to please shareholders even if they don't need to.  The defense industry is horribly bloated, the auto industry is going to need to restructure majorly and will probably go to increased automation and we've already got too many people asking if you want fries with that burger?  Nope- we need to create new businesses.  What are the road blocks to creating or expanding a business?  Taxes can be ugly- but when you're just starting out, health care is far worse.  Getting capital would be good, but if you've got customers, you may have a fighting prayer for that.

I see there are three requirements for starting new businesses today
1)  Uncle Sam needs to be a first customer to prime the pump.
2)  Need to have access to some capital- solving the financial crunch would help.
3)  Need to lower startup costs- and that's healthcare.  (or you run bare- very tough if you've got a family.)

Health care costs far more than labor costs have made US businesses uncompetitive.  And health care costs are largely a function of our legal system.  Can we please have a moratorium on criminal charges for shooting lawyers?


Sam


I agree with what you and most of the other posters have been posting.
I agree unemployment is a key factor driving our economy downhill.
But where are all these people going to work?
What is produced or manufactured in the United States anymore?
It appears to me that we outsourced our nation, now we will sit in the pot and stew.
Or like a popular Mayor said, "We are producing anything, shall we sit around and
serve each other tea?"

Growing up I remember seeing tags on everything , especially clothes, the tag said "Made in America", seen any of those tags lately?


< Message edited by MzMia -- 3/6/2009 8:14:37 PM >

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 8:42:05 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia


Growing up I remember seeing tags on everything , especially clothes, the tag said "Made in America", seen any of those tags lately?



Yeah. I was out shopping this afternoon, and I saw this really cool new item called Global Depression. It had a "Made In USA" tag on it.


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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/6/2009 8:44:32 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia


Growing up I remember seeing tags on everything , especially clothes, the tag said "Made in America", seen any of those tags lately?



Yeah. I was out shopping this afternoon, and I saw this really cool new item called Global Depression. It had a "Made In USA" tag on it.



When you where out shopping, did you check the labels?
Was everything made in China or Taiwan?

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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/7/2009 4:03:36 AM   
VanessaChaland


Posts: 362
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Status: offline 		 Umm, excuse me for one second.
Cough, cough, (clears throat, sucks in huge lung fulls of air)  BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVO!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

That's appalling.

It's time to start really protesting laws such as this one. For example, the Patriot Act. Not just bitching about it in dark corners of the net. This cannot stand in a free nation, or that nation is no longer free.

(in reply to DMFParadox)
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RE: Who else feels President Obama is trying to do WAY ... - 3/7/2009 4:44:38 AM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VanessaChaland

Umm, excuse me for one second.
Cough, cough, (clears throat, sucks in huge lung fulls of air)  BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVO!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

That's appalling.

It's time to start really protesting laws such as this one. For example, the Patriot Act. Not just bitching about it in dark corners of the net. This cannot stand in a free nation, or that nation is no longer free.



And so in the year 2009, the democrat party rallied around their vibrant young President, repealed the Patriot Act, released the hundreds of remaining prisonser held in Gitmo to the new Taliban government of Afganistan, and settled in to enjoy the coming fruits of the "Stimulus Package" enacted earlier in the year by only members of their parties and three, later to be found insane, Senators from the other side of the aisle   As the Führer of the House of Representatives had said "We Won"...and by December of 2009 all power was pretty much consolidated in the democrat party.

The citizens of the republic, however, were not prepared for what came next...
"Time is required for the accomplishment of anything important. It is only with time that great plans may be brought to maturity and the competent men be found who are capable of carrying them out. Not surprisingly, therefore, any economic plans drawn up amid all this shifting for short-term political advantage were bound to fail." 

"The expense of the huge debt being piled on the backs of corporations and individuals took it's toll sooner than anyone could imagine." And the only source of funds, China, was now in the midst of it's own economic recession and the world ATM that the democrats had counted on..was closed!

People looked at each other in disbelief as the pillars of their democracy crumbled before their eyes.

A fantasy?...a nightmare?....over the top rants of a neocon?....could it happen?.... I don't know it's "fiction" that I made up...but is it?
Could history repeat itself....Each of us has their own belief in what the "truth" ahead might be instore for our country.

                          http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p299_Degrelle.html

"Overwhelmed by the cessation of payments and the number of current accounts in the red, even Germany's central bank was disintegrating. Harried by demands for repayment of the foreign loans, on the day of Hitler's accession to power the Reichsbank had in all only 83 million marks in foreign currency, 64 million of which had already been committed for disbursement on the following day."

"Any hope of paying off these deficits with new taxes was no longer even imaginable."

"Nothing is given for nothing. In politics, manacles are imposed in the form of money."

(in reply to VanessaChaland)
Profile   Post #: 40
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