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You gotta love people who claim to love America and then post things that show how badly they want the president to fail, despite the damage that would do to the country and at worst want to see the country go down the toilet so that their politicians can retake the country on a wild trip to the far right.

Ok...I'll be the asshole. I believe that we're in for some very rough times. I believe that it may take many years to get fully through this and back to "business as usual". But I believe America is strong enough to weather this storm. Sooner or later this economic crisis will end. In four years there will be another presidential election. In four or eight years, Obama will peacefully leave office, and the basic life of America will resume.

I find it shamefull that so called patriots have so little faith in their country.

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ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

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You gotta love people who claim to love America and then post things that show how badly they want the president to fail, despite the damage that would do to the country and at worst want to see the country go down the toilet so that their politicians can retake the country on a wild trip to the far right.

Ok...I'll be the asshole. I believe that we're in for some very rough times. I believe that it may take many years to get fully through this and back to "business as usual". But I believe America is strong enough to weather this storm. Sooner or later this economic crisis will end. In four years there will be another presidential election. In four or eight years, Obama will peacefully leave office, and the basic life of America will resume.

I find it shamefull that so called patriots have so little faith in their country.

I find it shameful that so many people believe we should just shutup and allow a government servant do as he pleases.  I want Obama to fail, and I'm not ashamed to say it.  His failure is our victory.  The policies he's espousing are not new, and they haven't and won't work.  I want his proposals to never come to fruition.  I want the government to back the fuck off.  If Obama wants to help, he will allow ALL OF US to keep our money.  Class warfare, wealth redistribution, and hollow speeches should be met with cynicism and disdain.  You can scream George Bush all you want.  He isn't the POTUS anymore.  You got your messiah, but don't expect me to obediently bend over without a word of protest.  George Bush didn't get one word of support from the start of his first term.  Obama and his worshippers shouldn't expect anything different. 

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ORIGINAL: corysub

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

So that top notch oil products company wasn't the appropriate company to be paid $80 per meal to feed our troops in Iraq. Now the DoD, under GWB, found that there was billions in fraud in that contract but didn't force Haliburton to refund all that money. Of course the fact that our troops, that you neo-cons claim to revere, were fed spoiled food by underpaid bangladeshies, for $80 a plate remember, seems to be just fine with you guys. It's not with me.

This thread is going down hill fast.  I don't really think any of us are better for reading some of the  comments published here.  The troops got some spoiled food..shit happens..and I don't know of a single report of a major problem and people dying...and you better believe the Fuhrer Keith Olbermann would have been all over this story...if there was a story.  We have more people who hve died from tainted "peanut butter" in this country than any silly internet conspiracy theory about Halliburton and bad food. Give it a break dude....your "irrational exuberance' over leftist politics is clouding your rational thought processes.  It's 2009...Obama is President...and we are on our way towards a depression...you do understand that.. I hope. 

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Do we get to call you traitors and threaten your livelihood as was done to those who spoke out against GWB? Or would you rather not be treated the way we were treated by you and yours?

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ORIGINAL: samboct

"As far as threatening someone's livelihood, GWB never personally did that to anyone."

Unfortunately not true.  Tell that to the scientists who saw projects that had approved grants not get funding, or had worked in areas such as stem cell research.  Furthermore, lots of science was classified as sensitive- a classification which the administration denied existed, but then people couldn't get published- and without publications couldn't get grants.

Just a "refresher" sam...GW did not endorse federal funding for "embryonic" stem cell research.  All of the advancements have been accomplished with adult stem cells, and research with embryonic has show no such results.  If the "global" biotech industry beleived in spending the huge research dollars in other than adult stem cells, I'm just pragmatic enought to believe they would be doing just that.  We are going to now pour hundreds of millions into an effort that might have been used to advance the current stage of research "where it is working" for POLITICAL reasons. How many REAL cures will be lost because of this loss of focus??   But isn't that why this President does everything, for a political agenda?!!  And please tell me what research that was humanitarian in nature and not connected with National Defense was classified as "sensitive"which denotes not a classification but the degree of classification...from "confidential, to secret to top secret. There is no "classification called "sensitive".. The blog that gave you that info put one over on ya...


While I agree with you that Obama does deserve the benefit of the doubt, I tend to think that we know more about economics than a bunch of whizzbangs in Washington- or at least a comparable amount.  I am unwilling to cede our economic future to the "experts" because they've gotten us into this mess and I haven't seen a good plan for getting us out.
WHY DO YOU IGNORE THE PLAN THE REPUBLICANS GAVE TO "OBAMA" WHEN THE PRESIDENT WAS IN "BI-PARTISAN MODE"???  I THINK WHAT THE DEMOCRATS SAID WAS.."WE WON"...

I've been reading Paul Krugman for awhile- BIG MISTAKE!  When has Krugman been right...??and his comment is that the problem with why the banking system is frozen is due to Geithner who's out of ideas. OOPSS.. KRUGMAN IS RIGHT ON THIS ONE!   The banking problem can be boiled down to asset pricing.  TRUE The market is offering $0.40/$1.00 of "toxic assets"- Geithner thinks thats too low.  I don't think he's right- and I'd start selling some of these financial "assets" at whatever we can get for them, WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO DO THIS..IF A MORTGAGE, FOR EXAMPLE IS CURRENT...WHY SELL IT AT $0.40 ON THE DOLLAR?  THE PROBLEM IS "MARK TO MARKET" ACCOUNTING WHICH, HOPEFULLY, WILL BE ELIMINATED NEXT WEEK! because the logjam is costing more.   If Geithner is right- the market will bid up the "toxic assets".  If he's wrong- then stuff gets sold at fire sale prices.  As far as I'm concerned- I have no problem with any of these financial companies going belly up- as long as they don't do collateral damage. THAT IS SOME CAVEAT.."AS LONG AS THEY DON'T DO COLLATERAL DAMAGE".  DO YOU MEAN LIKE LEHMAN'S DEMISE, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN GLOBAL CREDIT MARKETS FROZE!!??   LETS GET REAL FOLKS...IF AIG, CITIGROUP OR BOA WHEN BELLY UP WE ARE ALL TOAST!    And I'd deal with AIG in the following fashion- they've taken bailout money- they have to name names as to who got what.  If somebody doesn't want to be named- they can give the money back. THAT BEEN DONE!   The idea that the Fed has that AIG will not be a viable company if they have to pass out their client list- well, it's a little late for that.  These financial megastores need to be broken up and unwound- the sooner the better.  And this is something that we all understand and can yell at our congressman for.  Our financial system needs transparency, accuracy, and truthfulness, and large conglomerates are too adept at sweeping massive problems into another section of the company.  As an example- it looks like AIG's London section is what took out the company doing credit default swaps. YEA...THAT WAS PUBLIC INFO WHEN THE COMPANY IMPLODED.  For collateral- they used the insurance divisions that were profitable (and still are).  But tying all this stuff together has meant that a bunch of successful businesses have been submerged in a tidal wave of debt.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a_Cds_O.VT1w&refer=home

Sam

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ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Kdsub, I know enough to realize that taxation and government spending won't solve it.  If you are flat broke and you owe money, you do not borrow more money and spend it.  Only a fool would think that's a good idea.  "You don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." 

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ORIGINAL: samboct
1)  There is a "sensitive classification" although it's officially denied.  And you can read about this problem in Science- although I don't have the exact issue. 

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ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I find it shameful that so many people believe we should just shutup and allow a government servant do as he pleases.  I want Obama to fail, and I'm not ashamed to say it.  His failure is our victory. 

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ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
I don't give a shit what color his hair is, all I care about right now is what color the Dow average is displayed in at the top of my MSNBC homepage - and it's been red almost every damned day since he took office, largely because he is not keeping his eye on the damned ball. I hired him to fix the damned economy, and in a month and a half he has done exactly nothing to stabilize the shattered foundation of that economy, the financials sector. And every day the traders on the Street point out what they think of his inaction.

I disagree with Rob's speculation that Obama is trying to get his agenda through before the 2010 midterms - I think it's even worse than that. I think he's trying to jam as much through as he can while he's still got 60%+ approval ratings, because he knows that this economy is heading straight for the crapper no matter what and once people figure that out, he'll lose a lot of political capital and won't be able to force this legislation past an emboldened republican congressional delegation. I've become very cynical about him the last few weeks. Either he's too dumb to see what the real problem is with the economy, or he's smart enough to clearly see that it can't be fixed quickly. Since he's clearly not dumb, the more logical possibility is that he's just trying to get in as much hay as possible before the rain starts.

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ORIGINAL: samboct

Ahh, thanks DK.  And how is your pile so fast to dig through?


Sam

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ORIGINAL: samboct

Cory

My info on scientists dealing with stuff that's "sensitive" doesn't come from a blog but comes from my profession since I talk to these folks.  I follow advanced materials- and these are the people that are telling me that-

1)  There is a "sensitive classification" although it's officially denied.  And you can read about this problem in Science- although I don't have the exact issue. 
2)  Grants that have been approved weren't being funded.  Again, personal communication.

And since when is reading someone a problem?  I tend to be pretty critical when I read something, but if the author's making sense, he's making sense.  And Krugman has been calling a lot of this mess correctly from my vantage point.

I'm damned if I know what assets are being priced at what- but I doubt that a viable mortgage is being priced at $0.40 on the dollar- since it wouldn't be considered a toxic asset.  Credit default swaps by AIG however, might be another matter.

Seems to me that the folks running the show claim to be free market believers- except when the "assets" they own are taking a shellacing because they were based on a shell game.  I'm content to let the market price "toxic assets" and move on.


Sam

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ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I want Obama to fail, and I'm not ashamed to say it.

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ORIGINAL: domiguy


I see posts from people that don't really understand what the President is capable of. I hired him to end a useless war, that he can do. I hired him to tackle the serious ills plaguing our health system, that he can do. I want him to look at the lobbyists and political contributions and the way that our politicians are bought and sold, that he can do.

He cannot fix the economy in seven weeks... 

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ORIGINAL: MmeGigs


The rise and fall of the Dow average isn't an indication of the strength of the economy or of the wisdom of a particular economic plan or of the long-term viability of a particular course of action, it's an indicator of how analysts and traders feel about the possibility of turning a quick profit.  Traders are looking for the kind of high-return low-risk vehicles that were creating so much of the wealth a few years ago but they're not out there.  That's not because of anything Obama has done or hasn't done, it's because they didn't actually exist.  Returns and risk tend to track pretty closely.  That's pretty fundamental stuff, but apparently we need to relearn it.  I think that once the traders get more accustomed to dealing with risk, we'll see money move around more freely.  I don't think we gain in the long term by trying to make it safer to make risky investments now.

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Nonsense. If this were true- the dollar would be tanking relative to other currencies, but its not. Basically the rest of the world is counting on the US to pull out of this tailspin and betting that we can do it. Nor does the falling Dow provide such a clear indicator of the potential success of Obama's plan. It does provide a clear indicator that past methods of making money are no longer to be counted on. The outsize returns generated by financial stocks based on shuffling mortgages around (and how much profit is in a mortgage anyhow?) are gone- hopefully forever and we can go back to returns based on technological innovation with some basis in reality. But the relatively few people holding most of the money are risk averse- which is why the Dow has dropped. Essentially they believed in the shell game of the finance firms. Now that the shell game has been exposed, these risk averse investors (whether it's large individuals or funds) are running around like chickens with their heads cut off. But in order to have returns higher than bank interest- you need to take risk. That fundamental law of investing needs to be relearned. The small investor can't make up for the loss of this large institutional money- which is an alternate explanation for why the Dow is cratering- that has little to do with the potential of success of Obama's plan.