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RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/12/2009 10:17:56 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I don't personally see your concern as valid, i see it as more of a self-righteous need to be independent and pretend everyone should have the ability to do something for themselves because to depend on someone else could have a negative consequence in the future.

This, I think, strikes at the heart of the issue (not to say the rest of your input isn't phenomenal). Many subs (non-slaves) have the underlying insecurity of relinquishing too much self-dependence. Well, to be fair, putting it as "insecurity" casts a negative light (since everyone is free to draw their line of surrender wherever they wish)...but it's a subtle issue that normally creeps up when the 'sub vs. slave' type threads or TPE threads come up. The idea of holding the 'self-catalyst' aspect of one's persona is one of the handful of traits that many non-TPE subs consider a sacrosanct part of their being; one which should not be relinquished...or, rather, one that if relinquished must surely suggest negative mental issues.

Your points about each individual finding the means by which they are able to motivate themselves (even if they work best having someone else guide them to it) pretty much cover the rest.

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I know that I'm to blame."
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Post #: 81

RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/12/2009 10:24:01 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

My issue with someone enforcing a diet is that until you've ruled out medical reasons for the weight, you could be doing more damage than good. Eating what most people consider healthy would cause me to gain weight and ultimately would cause diabetes.

I also think there's a difference between someone controlling your diet and someone saying, "Hey, honey, I thought you weren't going to eat that." Punishing someone for going off diet creates a weird relationship with food that can lead to eating disorders and abuse of drugs, etc.

While these concerns are absolutely valid and are to be kept in mind, they are not very different from tons of kink-related issues that would warrant similar "at your own risk" pill-bottle-style warnings. Ropework. Suspension. Breath-play. Heck, the very concept of power exchange brings along a warning of gauging mental stability and self-awareness. There is no substantially more inherent danger in this potential aspect of WIITWD than any other.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 5/12/2009 10:28:11 PM >

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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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Post #: 82

RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/12/2009 10:37:29 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

This, I think, strikes at the heart of the issue (not to say the rest of your input isn't phenomenal). Many subs (non-slaves) have the underlying insecurity of relinquishing too much self-dependence. Well, to be fair, putting it as "insecurity" casts a negative light (since everyone is free to draw their line of surrender wherever they wish)...but it's a subtle issue that normally creeps up when the 'sub vs. slave' type threads or TPE threads come up. The idea of holding the 'self-catalyst' aspect of one's persona is one of the handful of traits that many non-TPE subs consider a sacrosanct part of their being; one which should not be relinquished...or, rather, one that if relinquished must surely suggest negative mental issues.

I wrote this before running into these two separate posts (for example) later on in the thread:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum
Who is Mike???

There you go making excuses for ppl. What bullshit. Eating a kinda well balanced meal is "basic" Kinda like breathing If your not smart enuff to figure out how to lose the weight you want ....Your not smart enuff to hang with me.

I am NOT referring to the folks that are content with their weight be it scrawny or fat. I am only talking about the ppl that want me to enable them to lose the lbs.

I am not in shape I'd like to be in ...I am way to lazy to do anything about it. Im comfortable in my own skin.

FYI I think its like 74% of ppl that lose the gain it all back in a year. Ya see sweetie ya got motivate internally. SHEESH. Hands out clues to the rest of the folks that actually believe the weight loss bull shit on late nite TV. There is not a magic bullet. A constant stuggle until you change your habits.

BadOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: marysdream

i would hope you are intelligent enough to know that any form of self improvement has to be motivated from your own desires...i feel very sad about my sister subs who have not learned to develop the confidence from within and want to strive for the best health for us! i have experienced D's on here that are impressed with a strong sub, who has developed her own self control...i am sure you are a beautiful woman...you can instill the motivation it takes to loose weight w/o a Dom being responsible for that!
good luck!
ree

Both a prime examples of the mentalities of some D-types and s-types alike who let their personal preferences as far as personality traits dictate what is supposedly psychologically healthy or universally factual. There is this fear of a person who isn't not submissive with certain specific issues. I suspect you'd find a heavy direct correlation between this mindset and the one of people to treat submission as a "gift" or a prize to be won.

It's an intriguing and seemingly common mentality, even among people involved in power exchange, to still treat a certain threshold of surrender as "wrong"...at least enough to insult those who would qualify.

Self-motivation and self-dependence are perhaps that last vestiges of personal individuality among people who are not sufficiently confident in their self-awareness...so maybe they use the former as a proxy.

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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Post #: 83

RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/13/2009 12:53:58 PM

DesertRat

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~fr~
Helped a girl who was in my collar to start eating, stop cutting, go for daily walks, and practice on her guitar. Of course, she was wanting those changes, which helped her to succeed. Willingness was the key.

Bob

*(edited for humility)

< Message edited by DesertRat -- 5/13/2009 12:55:57 PM >

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Post #: 84

RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/13/2009 1:30:15 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
There is no substantially more inherent danger in this potential aspect of WIITWD than any other.

I have to disagree. Simply because most women with weight problems already have emotional difficulties relating to weight, self image etc. It's as though you were suspending someone who had arthritis to begin with instead of healthy joints.

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Post #: 85

RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/13/2009 4:50:25 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JulieElizabeth
if so, could You please share your success stories?

Sure, it's not very elabore though. I wanted to pull some weight off Carol, my wife/slave. I strongly suspect this sort of thing is way easier in a committed, live-in relationship. I did my homework up front and developed an excercise plan. I made sure I understand what her caloric daily run rate was, her starting and desired ending body fat percentage, etc. I setup a spreadsheet where we recorded calories in/out every day along with predicted and actual body fat %'s (complete with fancy graphs and trend lines). We didn't quite make the goal by the 12 week mark and there's been some backsliding since then since I'm dealing with a large amount of stress in our lives righ tnow, but overall, I'd call it a handy success and shortly we'll pickup again.

In truth there is no magic here. Carol wants to meet my expecations more than just about anything else in her world... certainly more than eating, drinking, and being lazy about excercising. She didn't want to lose weight badly enough to do it for herself, but she way way more doesn't want to lose her slave collar.

Insofar as how this may or may not play out in the future? Heck, every year that she's 20lbs ligher than she was is adding to her life expectancy. We'll worry about what may or may not happen in the future when that occurs but we are winning right now.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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Post #: 86

RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/13/2009 9:01:32 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I have to disagree. Simply because most women with weight problems already have emotional difficulties relating to weight, self image etc. It's as though you were suspending someone who had arthritis to begin with instead of healthy joints.

Most women in general have emotional difficulties relating to their weight. This isn't a unique issue strictly cornered by those who are substantially heavier. Perhaps the weight topic specifically has a tendency to effect a wider range of insecurities (versus, let's say, habitual shyness), but it is not a psychological trauma that precedes psychological instability rather than one that augments it.

Your point, however, substantiates mine: that there is just as important an analysis to be made of someone's potential arthritis prior to suspension as there is assisting someone with weight loss without having all the physical/biological data to make sure your effort are not harming more than helping. It, just like most every other facet of WIITWD, requires informed, intelligent decisions and appraisals made by the D-type if not all participants as a whole.

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I know they're all insane
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I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/13/2009 9:08:55 PM

FangsNfeet

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When I go shopping, I'll pick out one of the largest people in the store and start to follow them. When who I'm with goes "What are you doing?" I'll reply in shock "Oh sorry dear, I thought that was you and was wondering what you were doing over there."

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Post #: 88

RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/13/2009 10:52:06 PM

Fadingthought

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Helping my sub meet her goals is always an important part of the lifestyle, I think.
Weight loss is a perfect example.

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Post #: 89

RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/14/2009 6:58:48 PM

newgirl83

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Although I've never had a Dom to help me diet/exercise more, I think that someone who decides they are going to do that should use every resource available to them and if they have a Dom willing to help, all the better. In the past, I have used a friend and roommate to help me diet, since she was dieting at the time. It helped me by knowing that I had someone else who would know that I cheated on my diet if I brought fast food home for dinner or bought junk food. It was one way for me to find extra motivation when I needed it.

Having your partner be supportive is very important. I once was on a diet when my significant other was not. He always wanted to eat out, and could without gaining weight, but I couldn't and he wasn't willing to compromise his habits for my benefit , which left me to choose between eating healthy at home by myself or being able to share dinner together. I chose my health.

I always want to improve myself, but would never get into a relationship with someone that only loved me with conditions (like loosing weight).

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Post #: 90

RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/14/2009 7:48:09 PM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
There is no substantially more inherent danger in this potential aspect of WIITWD than any other.

I have to disagree. Simply because most women with weight problems already have emotional difficulties relating to weight, self image etc. It's as though you were suspending someone who had arthritis to begin with instead of healthy joints.

I think you're both right, BDSM tends to provoke more extreme reactions, a lot of people are drawn to it because they think somebody else will make all the decisions for them, so that could be (but doesn't have to be) feeding into that mentality and stopping from achieving anything themselves or for themselves and/or taking responsibility...

As for women with weight problems, hasn't the whole media brainwashed most of us so much that most women believe they have weight problems because they are comparing themselves with super airbrushed pictures of models who are a fraction of the population. Switch on the TV, go to the cinema, look at an ad or a magazine, lots of beautiful people, all slim and tall, then go into a shopping mall and look how many of them look like that? Of course that makes us insecure, plan worked, somebody who is insecure will spend money on things that might cure it, be it diet pills, the new lipstick, dress, you name it. They tell us we will look beautiful with it and we grasp at it in the hope that we end up looking like the models....

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Post #: 91

RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/14/2009 8:16:53 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

As for women with weight problems, hasn't the whole media brainwashed most of us so much that most women believe they have weight problems because they are comparing themselves with super airbrushed pictures of models who are a fraction of the population.

In addition, it's interesting to realize how many of those very models are not immune at all to the same insecurities about their figures. The fear of not getting 'that body' is not necessarily greater than the fear of having it and possibly losing it (assuming the model even feels comfortable in her own skin when she does have it).

People are prone to gripe about how having a D-type dictate the image he wants (or is helping the sub to attain) may be suspect, but since many women already have problems with trying to meet some universal concept of body-type from societal pressure, all it really becomes is substituting another source...and one (in the D-type) which is presumably more caring and personally supportive.

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/14/2009 9:01:53 PM

LadyConstanze

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To be honest, if you are struggling with accepting yourself as not being "magazine perfect" and then a D-type feeds that insecurity and encourages weight loss, I see the danger of an eating disorder looming, a lot of anorexic girls feel they are only lovable when they are thinner to the point of seriously ruining their health, it's not a mindset I would like to encourage. An anorexia is not only found in teens...

In case the weight is a health issue, different story, but then I would hope the D is not like the bull in the china store and tears down the self-esteem, and again, what if they break up? I think encouragement is good, but initially the change has to come from the person, for themselves, their own self-esteem and their health, not to please somebody, that can be an additional motivator.

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Post #: 93

RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/14/2009 9:58:43 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I would hope the D is not like the bull in the china store and tears down the self-esteem...

If we're entertaining the possibility of an unhealthily emotionally abusive D-type, weight-plans are just a fingertip to worry ab out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

...and again, what if they break up?

Then, depending their character traits, they find a new source of motivation or a temporary proxy.

The "what if a break up happens?" argument (in any topic) strikes against the very heart of D/s relationships (if not just relationships in general). Otherwise, no emotional surrender, no subservience, no full vulnerability would be undertaken for fear of the fallout if something bad happens.

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/14/2009 10:13:10 PM

LadyConstanze

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Weight plans can cause a lot of damage, long lasting damage and psychological damage, I would worry about that A LOT, and you brought that type up, the "bull in china store" metaphor was actually meant as what it is usually used for, not being delicate enough about it, and sorry, but being delicate about something is not something men usually do well, that's not dissing them, it's just contrary to their social conditioning, everybody admires a guy who's straight out, takes no prisoners, it's seen as a "manly" quality.
Oh and I didn't even mention the idiots who possibly think "How far can I push her/him, how thin can s/he get, oh am I not the coolest"

If they are only doing it for somebody else they are falling straight back into their old habits, to be honest any relationship where a guy would do something that is essentially good for him and his health would do something just for me and not for himself, I would question the person's sanity. BDSM and emotional surrender doesn't mean that you have to be an idiot and leave me to care for you, if I wanted somebody to care for, and make a lot of decisions for, I guess I would have Ums or a dog, I have cats...

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RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/15/2009 5:16:30 AM

barelynangel

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So what you are saying that its MORE HEALTHY for someone who is overweight to STAY over weight because god forbid in the future THEY MAY gain the weight back because god forbid their dom tells them part of their training is going to be they will lose weight to a healthy weight or some other extreme MAY occur. Sorry but that concept sounds ridiculous to me and in actuality sounds like excuse being made for people to remain unhealthy (which is so for most overweight people). So would you tell someone who is dying because what if they take treatment and get more healthy but then walk outside they may be hit by a car walking across the street so it makes no difference they may as well die with what they have? There are many people who get treatments for diseases when they KNOW it MAY come back. Should people refuse treatment because of what if's? The concept is not that different than what many people on this thread are advocating simply because its about weight.

Also, you do realize most people who are overweight are not so because of physical reasons but because of their EMOTIONAL mentality? AND that the weight usually creates even MORE emotional issues. Sorry i don't believe advocating overweightness or implying its MORE HEALTHY to stay that way than lose, is the way to achieve success.

To me, what ifs aren't healthy for a person if those what ifs are excuses as to why they don't do something HEALTHY now. And that's what many what ifs become excuses. You have people in this world surgically altering themselves to lose weight, you have people yo-yo dieting, trying pills galore, all to lose weight. Sorry but i rarely find an overweight person or hell a person or so who doesn't WANT to lose weight. Many i find use what if's to NOT do so. What if i gain it back and thensome, what if i can't reach my goal, what if i screw up, what if it doesn't work. They give half hearted attempts. BUT WHAT IF, someone is capable of helping someone overweight lose weight because of their dynamic of M/s and D/s, i think its kinda silly not to because of WHAT IFS. I mean people are so focused on the negative what ifs, they completely miss the positive -- WHAT IF THEY SUCCEED, WHAT IF THEY BECOME HEALTHY, WHAT IF THEY ARE ABLE TO MAINTAIN, WHAT IF THEY GO ON TO HELP OTHERS, WHAT IF THEY BECOME MORE EMOTIONALLY HAPPY AND STABLE, WHAT IF THEY BECOME MORE CONFIDENT, WHAT IF THEY LIVE 10 EXTRA YEARS, WHAT IF THEY INSPIRE OTHERS.

I have noticed many on this board are pessimistic and always think of negative extremes and i hate to say it but it sounds a lot like making excuses not to do something because of what if's in the negative sense. They usually completely miss the positive what ifs, which many times happen MORE than the negative extremes.

I am not a person who believes slaves and subs are emotionally weak individuals who will have a break down because the Dom or Master they have wish them to be healthy and YES, look good. Sorry i don't believe in BBW. I don't believe subs and slaves are so sensitive and emotionally unstable that this concept of a dom or master helping them reach a goal of losing weight and the guy BEING HAPPY ABOUT IT, would send them into some extreme. To me, if they are -- they really shouldn't be in this type of relationship. Sorry, i think people need to be taught to SEE the truth, not be allowed to hide behind what ifs, simply because it might hurt their feelings. I am not saying truth needs to be given in an rude or mean way, but a dom saying hey i want you to lose weight and i will help you. Is the same as a dom saying, i want you to stop smoking or i want you to exercise more (even if they aren't overweight) or i want you to lose your unhealthy addition, i want you to drink more water, i want you to eat more healthy food instead of junk food.

Why people see this as something different -- shows me that people make just as many if not more excuses for fat people NOT to lose weight that fat people make for themselves. ITs an unhealthy habit -- period.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 5/15/2009 5:31:27 AM >

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RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/15/2009 7:24:12 AM

LadyConstanze

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No, obviously you didn't understand what I was saying at all!

The MENTAL aspect of it, you know body and mind aren't completely separate entities, if somebody is obese and ONLY loses weight to please the dominant, not because the realize it is important for themselves, then they have a lot more issues than the weight. A hell lot more issues and personally I would not be prepared to deal with a person with those issues because I believe people are responsible for themselves, they shouldn't abuse the dominant in the relationship as a crutch.

I'm sure you have heard the term that you can only help somebody who's willing to help him or herself and that is exactly the point. If you are a person who is obese due to overeating, then YOU need to do something about it, you need to have the willpower to do something about it, then you can work with your dominant on the issue and ask for help, but it has to come from yourself!

As for the medical reasons, yes it is indeed a lot more unhealthy to have massive fluctuations of weight than being overweight and keeping your weight stable. Losing 30 to 50 lbs and putting them on again, especially if you do it repeatedly and with a fad diet, will damage your system a lot more than carrying 30 lbs around with you.

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Post #: 97

RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/15/2009 7:29:32 AM

subtlebutterfly

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<second LadyConstanze's post
If a person doesn't sincerely want to lose weight it can do more damage than anything else if you force them to lose weight 'cause then there're great odds of them gaining bak the same..if not more weight. Losing weight can be as damaging as gaining weight if it isn't done wholeheartedly.

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Post #: 98

RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/15/2009 7:36:59 AM

Fitznicely

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~ FR ~

Skipping five pages cos I'm short on time. Yeah yeah bad Juju, go stick pins in my dollie.

I'm overweight and so is My girl. We're working together to lose it. We know it has to be gradual as crash diets mean bingeing and that's baaad.

I guide her and encourage her and try and lead by example, and it's led to a few "intense discussions", but we both recognise that's just a natural reaction to coming out of the rut we're in. At the end of the day, tho, it's more to do with not wanting our bodies to be fucked up any more than they already are (also, I need to be fitter to play harder - and I can't get her arms in a monoglove till she drops a few lbs).

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Post #: 99

RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss? - 5/15/2009 7:54:50 AM

barelynangel

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MOST people who are massively overweight if you look at their history have TRIED many ways to lose weight. SO, if they can and DO do it because they are able to focus on someone OTHER THAN themselves, and they succeed, they then regain a lot of self-esteem and confidence they were unable to for whatever reason release while fat, and they become more self-assured and exist HAPPILY and content and healthy and secure in their relationship as a slave wherein MOST of their LIFE is based on living up to ANOTHER PERSON'S expectations and standards, which many times become their OWN as the slavery progresses is a person who somehow has MORE ISSUES than weight?

So a slave who looks to their MASTER -- to set out the way to the goal and the expectations and standards of obtaining THIS SPECIFIC GOAL, along with probably MANY other goals, isn't attempting to HELP THEMSELVES? BY admitting the need another to have the discplie they KNOW THEY DON'T is a step in the right direction.

So every person in the world who go to all these weight loss places -- WW, LA, JC, somehow are NOT DOING IT RIGHT?

You are pretty much to me saying if someone uses ANYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD to achieve THIS GOAL, they aren't DOING IT RIGHT and so should NOT DO IT and instead remain fat and unhealthy making excuses.

If you observe people who lose weight, you will see as they progress, their outlook changes, many times they change how they view themselves and they many times as the weight drops off they also get into it. Sorry but i hear what you are saying and it sounds like you are saying -- if you don't do it THIS WAy, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG AND SHOULD JUST FORGET DOING IT, no matter if you start succeeding at it or not because you aren't doing it right.

I MANY times when i am a slave use my Master to obtain willpower or determination to fulfill something BECAUSE he is my driving force. I suck at it on my own and am not that disciplined. HE is my discipline. I get so tired of people acting like a slave shouldn't DEPEND on their masters to offer discipline in things they suck at but wish to succeed at.

Sorry you really have a good idea and in an IDEAL WORLD it would happen that EVERYONE would have all the discipline and willpower and ability to achieve everything ON THEIR OWN. But as i said, its a pretty poor excuse to NOT try because you need to use another (Dom, Husband, event, kids, health etc) as an incentive instead of just - well i want to so i am gonna

i also get tired of people acting as if a slave relying, depending, or being DEPENDANT, upon someone they view as THEIR MASTER, is some negative wrong concept. I am weak in some areas of my life, i lack the detemination and drive in these areas to achieve success i KNOW i want. I when i had my Master relied HEAVILIY on him to set the expectations and standards in these areas of my life because i sucked at doing so on my own. I think someone NOT doing something because they can't or won't do it on their own or for themselves relying on their Dom or Master to take control in this area and BE the discipline the sub or slave lacks in this area -- sets the sub and slave up for success rather than moping around wishing they would succeed.

Sorry but if you don't mean someone shouldn't even bother to TRY because they aren't doing it the way YOU think is right, youhaven't expressed that at all. All i see you saying pretty much is if you KNOW you aren't doing it for you but for someone else, you need to STOP and sit around fat becaus even though you succeed at it that way -- you aren't doing it right. So its better to stay fat and unhealthy, instead of using the discipline of another which may as time goes on become your discipline or at the very least you will lose weight and become healthier, and can deal with the other issues AS YOU USE someone else for the discipline to deal with this issue.

Just because they need someone's discipline in ONE area of their life, doesn't mean they don't have it in other areas. This isn't an all or nothing concept.

Do you have facts to cite with regard to what you have stated about carrying around 30 extra pounds (most people its more like above 50). Because i have NEVER heard any physician state that to anyone. Oh yeah stay fat because you may regain the weight once you lose it.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 100

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master >> RE: have You ever helped a sub with weight loss?

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