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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/20/2009 1:21:38 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer


But it's easier to be mad at someone taking a bonus, that was promised to them last year and due to be paid to them at the end of last year.


And again, and again, I keep repeating this, if we expect one group to sacrifice then why is the promise made to AIG execs any different than the pension, health care, and other promises made to autoworkers?

Because the UAW didn't payoff Senator Dodd as much as AIG did.

Of the $2,027,645.00 given out by the UAW for the 2008 campaign, a nice 'even' split of $2,012,690 going to Democrats, $12,750.00 going to Republicans; they were relative pikers when it came to putting their money where it would get them a special few lines in the 'Bail-Out' package. Link: FOLLOW - UAWs MONEY

Although #1 on their list, as was the case with AIG, Senator Obama only received $27,340 and Dodd only got a $1,000. Hell - everyone knows, it takes at least six figures to get special recognition like AIG's executives.

Concerning GM, well hell they're so broke they only paid out less than $1 Million; and the split resulted in less than $100k difference between the political parties. #1 on that is once again - the former Senator Obama. Link: FOLLOW GM's MONEY The relatively poor showing of bag money doesn't speak well for them getting more funds.

You've got to learn how to follow the money to understand the reasoning for ANY action taken by Congress or the sitting administration. It makes no difference which party is in power. The 'Greenback Party' has been in power since at least 1964 based on my reading. 

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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/20/2009 1:33:11 PM   
UncleNasty


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Greenback Party?


Uncle Nasty

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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/20/2009 1:40:35 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty
Greenback Party?

Uncle Nasty

UN,
That's what happens when you get old - you start using references that nobody else is old enough to remember and understands. Sorry about that.
quote:

Greenbacks: A term used for the United States dollar.

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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/20/2009 2:21:10 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

If they were going to the retired UAW workers and saying we're going to cut your benefits for 2008, you owe us $3,000. then it would be the same principle as saying to AIG folks your bonuses for 2008 are being recalled.



They have:




Proposed Ford/Uaw Ageeement - GM next? - GM Inside News Forum
Investigation of Companies Eliminating Fringe Benefits To Retirees

Cohen, Milstein, Hausfeld & Toll, P.L.L.C. is currently investigating companies (1) which promised a fringe benefit to their employees either continuing into retirement or after retirement and (2) which subsequently eliminated that benefit. This investigation concerns whether the elimination of those benefits constitutes a violation of ERISA because the benefit program was not funded, or not treated as vested.





UAW's VEBA Board: Autoworkers' Health Care Benefits in Peril ...

A union-run health care trust known as a voluntary employee benefit association, or VEBA, was supposed to help the automakers escape bankruptcy by capping the amount they would pay for retiree health care expenses.

For the retirees, the VEBA was described as insurance against losing retiree health care benefits should the automakers file for bankruptcy. The money would be available for retiree health care regardless of how the automakers fared. 

But in July, GM deferred paying $1.7 billion into the VEBA, angering GM retirees.

“What we were promised in the last contract in 2007 in exchange for very deep concessions was that our health care would be guaranteed in the event of bankruptcy,” says Gregg Shotwell, 58, a former GM plant worker and union member who retired last month. “That was a lie. Because no money actually changed hands. Here we are today on the verge of bankruptcy and the VEBA is not funded. I’ve already been at the back of the line with [former GM subsidiary] Delphi. I don’t want to be at the back of the line in my retirement.”


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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/20/2009 2:30:49 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Rule I'm all for asking these exec's to return all or some of these bonuses.I'm not for passing punitive ,retalitory tax code to recoup these monies....that is just wrong and a bad precedent for later on.


Of course, while you are defending them on the basis of principle they would have no problem using the very same tax code to keep their ill-gotten gains, if that was an option for them.



Or using the nation's court's to recoup any monies lost to this illegal and unconstitiutional law.Which is of course the point,the bill as is is illegal and won't hold up in court.

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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/20/2009 2:43:16 PM   
rulemylife


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My bet is it will.

There is nothing unconstitutional legally about it.

Maybe unconstitutional on principle, based on the reasons behind it.

But what can be disagreed as unconstitutional on generic principle isn't what can found to be that way legally.

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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/20/2009 3:12:51 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
My bet is it will.
There is nothing unconstitutional legally about it.
Maybe unconstitutional on principle, based on the reasons behind it.
But what can be disagreed as unconstitutional on generic principle isn't what can found to be that way legally.

Since, to my knowledge, you're not vetted as a Constitutional Scholar, a quick search produced this information on this issue:
quote:

But could such a tax also run into Constitutional problems? Some pundits (for example, here and here) have suggested yes. The most commonly mentioned difficulties include the prohibitions on so-called Bills of Attainder and retroactive laws (laws passed Ex Post Facto) mentioned in Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution. Other possible problems brought to our attention deal with the Contract Clause of the Article I, Section 10; the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment; and the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment. Source: RETRO FITTING LAW 
There is argument provided for both sides of the issue if anyone cares to view the link. The fact that it is debatable must be having those in Congress getting ABA PAC kickbacks jumping for joy!

Adding a few Million in legal expenses may not seem like much under the circumstances. It's amusing to note that the first batch needing to be spent arguing against the Bonus allowing language generated from the same source who now wants to fight it. Hard to expect, but shouldn't there also be some other pragmatic and practical considerations?

For instance, although this is a great strategy in my opinion to insure that fewer companies take bail out money and succeed or fail on their own; won't the effort work against the ultimate goal of stimulating private sector business? It would seem that this action would be against the purpose given for the bail-out; but you can't expect Congress or this Administration to think that far ahead.

Some people have...
quote:

Then there's the question of the sanctity of contracts.
If the government goes around canceling contracts like those calling for AIG bonuses, people might stop entering into contracts that call for using government bailout money designed to get credit flowing again to help spend the nation out of recession.
Some firms could be scared away from the bailout program, said Scott Talbott, senior vice president of government affairs for the Financial Services Roundtable.
"Ultimately it will undermine the recovery efforts," Talbott said. "It will have a chilling effect on ability to attract and retain employees," Talbott said.
The House bill is HR 1586, the Senate bill is S 651.
Source: NO THANKS - I'd rather fail

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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/20/2009 3:16:46 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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this may have alreaady been said-heck i hope it has been.....legal? i have no idea........right? damn straight.....the amount of money they make/take is obscene to me


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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/20/2009 8:45:16 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

this may have alreaady been said-heck i hope it has been.....legal? i have no idea........right? damn straight.....the amount of money they make/take is obscene to me



It may be "obscene" to you. It doesn't make it wrong.

I've done work and made several thousand dollars for a few minutes work ... is that "obscene"?

Where do you draw the line at "obscene"? Anyone who makes more than you do?

Firm

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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/21/2009 6:26:32 AM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

this may have alreaady been said-heck i hope it has been.....legal? i have no idea........right? damn straight.....the amount of money they make/take is obscene to me



It may be "obscene" to you. It doesn't make it wrong.

I've done work and made several thousand dollars for a few minutes work ... is that "obscene"?

Where do you draw the line at "obscene"? Anyone who makes more than you do?

Firm


hell if i drew the line at anyone that makes more than me, that would be too big a list to handle.

i get emails from aig monthly, telling me how safe my money is.  i tried to take it out and put it elsewhere, and because of rules set forth by my employer, i can not touch it.  so it chaps my ass to see the heads of this company getting more money that (imho) anyone on gawds green earth needs.

i dont know where i draw the line to be honest, but i know they are way over the line in my head.  just the way i feel.....

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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/21/2009 7:51:35 AM   
Raiikun


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This tax is gonna screw some people over that it shouldn't.  A friend of mine's wife works at Bank of America, for instance.  She's very good at her job, which is bringing in new money into the company (through CDs, IRAs, etc).  She's good enough she hit her quarterly goal by the end of January.

Bonuses are a significant part of her compensation package.  She made around 125k a year, but because she's married to a doctor pushing the household income over 250k, her bonuses will now be getting the punitive tax, removing 25% of her income.

There are bank tellers even at risk of having their bonuses punitively taxed.  That's just absurd.

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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/21/2009 8:27:06 AM   
LadyEllen


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As contractual agreements, the bonuses cannot be simply withdrawn or reduced retroactively by actions which contravene contractual law; however in this case there should be attention paid perhaps to the time period in which the bonuses are to be paid. If for instance the contracts dont specify a "payment due by" date, there is a window by which the bonuses can be withheld until better times, without being withdrawn. If there is a "payment due by" date, then the question is regarding the consequences of withholding the bonuses until better times - in the UK for instance, there is a maximum late penalty charge plus interest, unless specific contractual conditions indicate additional late payment penalties.

There is also the question of whether the bonuses are indeed enforceable at all, considering that the company should have gone bankrupt had it not been rescued. In this, the matter of how the rescue was made is important - handled properly, it should be the case (under UK law at least) that an administrator (the treasury/government in this case) is charged with realising the best value of the assets for the benefits of creditors, which might be accomplished by selling the business as a whole as a going concern or liquidating the assets by way of item by item sale. In this case, it would seem that the administrator effectively sold the business as a going concern to the taxpayers, and creditors ought to be paid from the monies from that sale.

In this, government comes first in the line of creditors (for outstanding taxes et al), then secured creditors, then ordinary creditors, importantly including employees. Given that AIG was effectively bankrupt, then it is unlikely that ordinary creditors should receive anything more than a few cents in the dollar for what they are owed, and this includes any bonus payments. In this way, bonuses should be effectively cancelled out there not being enough realised from the sale of the business to meet them. However that means all payments - and perhaps also outstanding salary payments to employees lower down the scale. Given that the business continued in new hands though, it would then be a commercial matter for the board to decide whether to restore ordinary creditors, especially employees - accounting to the shareholders for their decision.

In addition, there should be a question as to the actions of directors and executives; whether criminal proceedings ensue or not, there may be cases where civil proceedings to recover losses suffered as a result of negligent actions could be pursued; most rightly perhaps in this case by the administrator, whose duty it is to realise the best outcome for the failed business and its creditors. Bonus payments made could be recovered this way, should cases be proven.

The whole matter really revolves around the manner in which the rescue was made - from the comments here it would appear that those remedies that might normally be available have been irrevocably waived by the actions of those who executed the rescue?

E



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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/21/2009 8:40:00 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

this may have alreaady been said-heck i hope it has been.....legal? i have no idea........right? damn straight.....the amount of money they make/take is obscene to me




It may be "obscene" to you. It doesn't make it wrong.

I've done work and made several thousand dollars for a few minutes work ... is that "obscene"?

Where do you draw the line at "obscene"? Anyone who makes more than you do?

Firm



I draw it at people taking money given to them by me and every other taxpayer to help their FAILING company.


< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/21/2009 8:41:49 AM >

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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/21/2009 10:08:34 AM   
popeye1250


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Why are people who make $200k-$500k per year getting "bonuses?"
How about the people who make $15 an hour getting bonuses?
What about bonuses for our military who don't make squat for the work they do?

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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/21/2009 10:32:41 AM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Why are people who make $200k-$500k per year getting "bonuses?"
How about the people who make $15 an hour getting bonuses?
What about bonuses for our military who don't make squat for the work they do?


I got a few pretty nice bonuses in the military as part of an incentive package for joining...one of them being a $2000 enlistment bonus.

A lot of these bonuses that are under fire are very much the same kind of thing.  I know a bank teller even who makes less than $15 an hour at Bank of America (friend of the other woman I mentioned above) who's bonuses would be subject to the 90% tax rate because her husband's business managed to succeed enough to put the household above $250k. 

Just pointing out...a lot of the people's bonuses that everyone is freaking out is simply a part of the compensation package agreed on when hiring.  How is one person making 60k, and another person making 40k + a 20k annual bonus any different from each other?

Or the Wal-Mart employees who get their quarterly profit-sharing bonus instead of being paid an extra buck an hour?

Or people who work for banks/investment companies with a commission based income with bonuses as part of their commission?

If you're going to freak out at bonuses being paid as part of a contractually agreed on; why not just freak out that taxpayer money is being used to pay the employee salaries?  Often times it's the same friggin thing...the bonuses are part of an agreed on salary.  My mom for instance once took one job over another because despite a smaller monthly salary, the bonuses made it slightly better paying. 

If the bonuses are gonna be punitively taxed though, people might as well say "ditch the bonus and just work it into my monthly salary so people don't freak out about it."

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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/21/2009 10:33:50 AM   
DarkSteven


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I have never understood any of this.

I still don't understand.  All that was necessary was to let AIG go bankrupt, and then renegotiate all its obligations.  The bonuses would have been gone in three minutes, simply and legally.

Why it was necessary to pass an entirely new law which makes precedent for the government to be able to decide who makes too much money, who makes money unethically, etc. beats me and scares the holy crap out of me.


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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/21/2009 10:39:28 AM   
domiguy


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It is a "non" issue in that it will NEVER...NEVER pass the senate.

This whole thing about bonuses is a distraction for the weakminded.  Who cares?  A drop in the bucket.  

Laws are never supposed to be punitive.  It's all bullshit, a kneejerk political reaction in response to an a largely unknowing and horribly ignorant public.

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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/21/2009 10:43:07 AM   
honeygirl


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I 100% agree with this (OK I'm less certain that it will never pass the vote in the Senate). Some of the opinions in this thread are quite surprising to me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

It is a "non" issue in that it will NEVER...NEVER pass the senate.

This whole thing about bonuses is a distraction for the weakminded.  Who cares?  A drop in the bucket.  

Laws are never supposed to be punitive.  It's all bullshit, a kneejerk political reaction in response to an a largely unknowing and horribly ignorant public.


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RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/21/2009 10:43:34 AM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

It's the smartest way of getting the money back. And it's being written very carefully so it only applies to these bonuses. I imagine once the money has been retrieved, the law will be revoked.


the smartest way of getting the money back is not to throw it away in the first place.


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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The House passes a punitive tax - 3/21/2009 10:47:42 AM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

rulemylife, so the fact that some of the bonuses are crap and going to the folks who created the problem automaticly means that other departments bonuses are equally undeserved??????????


to be specific...they didn't create the problem.


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