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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 10:32:42 AM   
honeygirl


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Based on the link MzMia provided, there's no way that 'groupthink' can possibly be viewed as positive. I mean, come on the very first sentence in the link says it all. What I mean to say is: if the question is are you A or are you B -- and A is extremely negative and B is touted as being positive, who in their right mind is going to say they have the negative quality, lol??

quote:

Groupthink, a term coined by social psychologist Irving Janis (1972), occurs when a group makes faulty decisions because group pressures lead to a deterioration of “mental efficiency, reality testing, and moral judgment” (p. 9).


Since she has referred to it several times, I'm going to go with not thinking she instead meant "team player."

I sometimes go with the crowd and sometimes stand alone and have the minority stance/opinion. It depends on the situation. I don't know anyone who has come close to admitting s/he engages in groupthink. As some people say, we're all unique, just like everybody else, lol!

One thing that struck me is a response where a poster mentioned that he considered himself a leader and not part of a team. My experiences have been different -- when I've led or been led, the most successful results have come from a feeling by those on the team that the leader is part of the team. I don't recall having come across anyone who wants to work hard for the success of "other" more than s/he wants the success of his/her own group (or self). Obviously, his experiences have differed and it's cool to see different viewpoints.



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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 10:40:45 AM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

"Group think" might not make sense to you, but it is a term commonly used and accepted in most area's of psychology.
The "group" tends to "think" as a large cohesive unit, by definition.


What is Groupthink

Groupthink


it's a silly concept as is. it needs a bit of rethinking as groups or collectives cannot think, only individuals can. people need to understand that if you want to approach the study of a collective, you have to approach it by understanding it is nothing more than the aggregate actions made by its members.

p.s. whenever you see the words 'social psychologist' the odds are that what you are about to read will be a waste of your time.

< Message edited by variation30 -- 3/22/2009 10:41:02 AM >

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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 10:43:13 AM   
variation30


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From: Alabama
Status: offline 		I do find the amount of people here who have proven themselves over and over again to be collectivists trying to don the mantle of a rugged individualist.


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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 10:45:53 AM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kidwithknife

(It would be interesting to know how many people who consider themselves independent thinkers would also see themselves as alphas.  As the two are essentially contradictory).



no they aren't.


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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 10:50:14 AM   
Jeptha


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quote:

...I don't know anyone who has come close to admitting s/he engages in groupthink. As some people say, we're all unique, just like everybody else, lol...

I agree - but in my own, independent way, of course!

I play devil's advocate a lot, and generally don't think of myself as a "group thinker".

But, on the other hand, I don't know when the last time was that I had a truly original thought or plan, either...so I'm not going to claim to be a iconoclastic trail blazing genius.

I do recombine existing ideas, or create my own interpretation and implementation of them, but I seldom am an originator in the strictest sense.

Not sure if that would make me an independent thinker or not.

I rather suspect if I were, I might be out living in a teepee somewhere or something.

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 3/22/2009 10:51:03 AM >

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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 10:51:36 AM   
kidwithknife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30
no they aren't.

Yes they are.  Pack alphas are still pack animals first and foremost and that's what the concept is based on.



< Message edited by kidwithknife -- 3/22/2009 10:53:51 AM >

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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 10:52:56 AM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
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From: Alabama
Status: offline 		let's not confuse being a group thinker with the concept of groupthink.


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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 10:55:26 AM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kidwithknife

Yes they are.  Pack alphas are still pack animals first and foremost and that's what the concept is based on.

no they aren't.



let's put this in the realm of humans. would a demagogue who uses the masses to fullfil his own ends be considered a group thinker? no, he is merely using a tool to accomplish his goals. he is still unaffected by external pulls upon his motivations and desires.


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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 11:04:46 AM   
UPSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vanityfull

group thinker here!

mostly i just wanted to be a different awnser...



I hear ya. Very few people will admit to falling into the category of "group thinking." I'm not sure the issue is always black or white either, or that is to say I'm not sure we all are always 100% one or the other or even that group thinking is always bad.

I've been told I'm a rebel before, and I know from experience that I can position myself against the majority thought. I do it quite frequently actually because much of American culture reinforces a binary perspective.

In my environmental class one semester, we all were to split on opposite sides of the classroom, depending on what side you took on the issue of the world being overpopulated. I stood by myself on the side of the room that disbelieves the world is overpopulated. My position of course angers many people, it especially seems to anger people who have no idea how to articulate their position. Only about 2 or 3 of the 15 or so people standing on the other side of the room argued their position against me. They did so with no success, not because they are bad or stupid people, but simply because they like most in contemporary United States have no idea why they believe what they believe other than they are told it's the correct thing to believe and that if you don't you are either a jackass or idiot.

For the record I acknowledge geographical regions like India and China are reaching - if they have not reached - their carrying capacity. I reject this notion for the geographical region of the United States (indeed we seem to need immigrants because are low birth rate would cause a strain on the economy if not collapse it - old people must be taken care of) and I reject this notion for the globe as a whole. I also think that ecological footprint stuff exaggerates predictions if not just being outright bullshit.




I would say if you think, hook, line, and sinker that women across the board in all occupations are systematically discriminated against in the job market, you are probably a group thinker. (you can skew statistics) If you think white people jumped off ships, grabbed Africans (black people) by the skin of their necks, put them in chains, then dragged them off to slave ships, you are probably a group thinker.

I'm sure most people will find this post pisses them off. To feel more self-righteous they'll have to insinuate I offered up ad hominems. I'll admit the tone of my post may be tinged with some arrogance and with some condescension. This is not because I think I'm brilliant or even saintly. I very much do not believe that. I believe I'm of fair intelligence and I believe I have certain talents, and I'm more especially aware I can be right or wrong at times. However, coming up in a contemporary culture that so easily attacks anyone with a question or a diverging view, from what the Sultans or right and left "correct thinking" state ought be thought, can be taxing at least and very demoralizing at worst. You can develop a thick shell of cyncism after a while - one tinged with arrogance.

But hey! at the end of the day I'm still pretty.



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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 11:11:15 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
But hey! at the end of the day I'm still pretty.

Yeah but at the end of the day it gets dark so prettiness counts for nothing.
 
You are right about population though because the fact you were able to stand on one side of the room with people on the other side of the room and with a big gap in the middle demonstrates quite clearly we have at least one room left to cram some people into.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 3/22/2009 11:18:46 AM >

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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 11:14:35 AM   
UPSG


Posts: 331
Joined: 1/22/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: honeygirl

Fast Reply

Based on the link MzMia provided, there's no way that 'groupthink' can possibly be viewed as positive. I mean, come on the very first sentence in the link says it all. What I mean to say is: if the question is are you A or are you B -- and A is extremely negative and B is touted as being positive, who in their right mind is going to say they have the negative quality, lol??

quote:

Groupthink, a term coined by social psychologist Irving Janis (1972), occurs when a group makes faulty decisions because group pressures lead to a deterioration of “mental efficiency, reality testing, and moral judgment” (p. 9).


Since she has referred to it several times, I'm going to go with not thinking she instead meant "team player."

I sometimes go with the crowd and sometimes stand alone and have the minority stance/opinion. It depends on the situation. I don't know anyone who has come close to admitting s/he engages in groupthink. As some people say, we're all unique, just like everybody else, lol!

One thing that struck me is a response where a poster mentioned that he considered himself a leader and not part of a team. My experiences have been different -- when I've led or been led, the most successful results have come from a feeling by those on the team that the leader is part of the team. I don't recall having come across anyone who wants to work hard for the success of "other" more than s/he wants the success of his/her own group (or self). Obviously, his experiences have differed and it's cool to see different viewpoints.


If the history of U.S. executive level administrations, revolving around the issue of increasing U.S. troop strength in Vietnam has anything to do with it, then the link and definition she provided for "groupthink" is probably on point and ought be differentiated from "team player."

There were advisers to U.S. Presidents  telling them what result if the U.S. did not pull out of Southeast Asia. Mind you, these were "team players" in my view, but they just didn't tell Presidents and war hawks the kinds of things that would reinforce their arrogant views, and in my opinion even childish views.

As a side note, the French (the ones we like to mock as weak and stupid so often) forewarned the U.S. that it could not win Southeast Asia by military force, but rather that that region would become a graveyard for our troops. The French are also the ones that advised the United States not to invade Iraq.



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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 11:28:30 AM   
KonDomme


Posts: 778
Joined: 9/14/2008
Status: offline 		I know that I would like to be considered an individual thinker but have on many occasions been part of a detrimental groupthinking process however, being with likeminded folk such as sites like this gather just makes me want at times to be part of the in-group as opposed to the out-group. At the end of the day, I can sleep with myself because my conscience does not prick me.

< Message edited by KonDomme -- 3/22/2009 11:32:57 AM >

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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 2:08:28 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Great subject for a thread, Mz. Mia.
 
I definately am far more on the independant and individualist path.  It is not always easy or safe but the rewards outweight the risks.
 
 




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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 2:22:04 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		I follow the herd.  I am easily swayed.  I am the sheeple. He who talks the loudest is most often the wisest.  I do as I am told.  I enjoy having others continually remind me of what my personal views are to be. I don't like to have my convictions questioned. I like to be right at all costs. This is the path for me.  Unless I am informed of a better path.

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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 2:35:34 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		This can be a more complicated question than some think.  I, for one, tend to sit alone agreat deal of the time working on stories and scripts so I might be considered independant.  However, it is not unheard of for me to come out of my cave and "bounce something off of" my wife to see how she reacts or if she has any additional ideas.
Maybe that makes me an independant thinker who sometimes needs a group thinker jump start.  I would guess that is true of more of us than are willing to admit it.

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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 2:46:07 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I follow the herd.  I am easily swayed.  I am the sheeple. He who talks the loudest is most often the wisest.  I do as I am told.  I enjoy having others continually remind me of what my personal views are to be. I don't like to have my convictions questioned. I like to be right at all costs. This is the path for me.  Unless I am informed of a better path.



You were trained well :-) .

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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 4:40:24 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Yes it is based upon a pack being led by the independent thought and actions of the alpha. You seem to be confusing loner with independent thinker. An independent thinker can lead a group.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kidwithknife

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30
no they aren't.

Yes they are.  Pack alphas are still pack animals first and foremost and that's what the concept is based on.




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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 5:04:17 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
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Status: offline 		I'd say 80 to 90 percent of people are pure group thinkers, IMO.

edited to add.
As far as being a leader of a group defining "independent thought", this isn't necessarily true either, most organizations, place the most conformist group think people into middle management, and lower upper management.

Also being alone doesn't necessarily make one an independent thinker either, if one requires fundamental beliefs, ideas, to stem entirely or the majority come directly from others ideas. It's hard to distinguish group thinkers sometimes from independent ones, as group thinkers very often are very educated, in that they can parrot what sounds like brilliant thought, and call it their own. The only real way to distinguish an independent thinker from a group thinker is to go through real world scenarios, that require real non-rote ideas or combinations to occur. However, it's easy to spot most group thinkers, as they find it very difficult, or impossible to explain the reasons for the conclusions they hold.

Something, like, why are you against Guns.

If they say something like, because I am. It's an opinion. Well, they obviously didn't think about it ever, they just hold an opinion, without a reason.

If they list the reasons, well, the may be an independent thinker, but they may just be parroting someone else to, it becomes difficult to determine with real certainty without a history.

Or if they give two beliefs that conflict. Such as: Pro-Choice, because it's a woman's body, but are against consensual Prostitution, and are anti-women having the choice over their body. Obviously both positions can not stand unless the person never examined the reasons for the held positions. 

Most forum topics are a battle of group thinkers.


< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 3/22/2009 5:19:58 PM >

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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/22/2009 5:42:52 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		I am enjoying all the replies!
One thing I want to clarify, I don't think there is anything wrong with "groups",
or being closely involved with a group.

Most of us have to go along with many groups {family, social situations, co-workers} to survive
and thrive in the world.
 
I still think there is a fair number of people that voluntarily involve themselves in "group think" situations, for friendship and acceptance. {Many dare not say what they really think most of the time, or they will be kicked out of the group}.

Since, this is not a "groupthink" thread, I am enjoying all opinions. 

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RE: "Group Thinker" or Independent Thinker? - 3/23/2009 4:04:41 AM   
sambamanslilgirl


Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		i'm definitely an independent thinker - i could care less what the "group" (especially here) thinks and/or reacts.

it's wonderful having and expressing my opinions since i don't sugarcoat like most here tend to do. it's a shame many don't like what they hear the truth unless it's from one of their own ie "group" thinkers.

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