RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 12:35:46 PM)

Term, really aren't you going over the top with this?

I mean I live here too and understand what you are saying, but this whole thing started with the other thread about the Pope opposing condom use.

You seem to be trying to make this a financial argument, and how much would condoms amount to as opposed to how much we provide in military aid to many countries?




rulemylife -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 12:47:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG


Yeah, I realize that. I can't speak for the Pope but with respects to the various ways HIV can be spread, I'll hazard to guess he's being cognitive of the fact that many married  couples - or even those that date - will at various points not use condoms. It's the dynamics of sex, intimate relationships, "the moment," the issue of trust as it revolves around fidelity.

A man or woman that thinks their Significant Other is sexually faithful to them - even though they may not be - will likely not always use condoms with their S.O.

But regardless, the Church stance is against condoms because Church teachings is that sex should be open to life (procreation). I'm sure the Pope understands that condoms protect against STD's.

I certainly would suggest prostitutes use condoms.



I know he does, which would make me hope that the Church would take a more realistic stance instead of adhering to dogma.

This is reminiscent of Nancy Reagan and her campaign to "just say no" to drugs.




kittinSol -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 12:58:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Term, really aren't you going over the top with this?

I mean I live here too and understand what you are saying, but this whole thing started with the other thread about the Pope opposing condom use.

You seem to be trying to make this a financial argument, and how much would condoms amount to as opposed to how much we provide in military aid to many countries?



For Term, it's a racial argument, I think [&:] .




Vendaval -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 12:58:45 PM)

Fast Reply -
 
Some specifics on the Catholic Church's teachings regarding contraception, from a Catholic Web-site.


"The Magisterium


The Church also, fulfilling the role given it by Christ as the identifier and interpreter of apostolic Scripture and apostolic tradition, has constantly condemned contraception as gravely sinful.

In Humanae Vitae, Pope Paul VI stated, "[W]e must once again declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun, and, above all, directly willed and procured abortion, even if for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as licit means of regulating birth. Equally to be excluded, as the teaching authority of the Church has frequently declared, is direct sterilization, whether perpetual or temporary, whether of the man or of the woman. Similarly excluded is every action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (HV 14).

This was reiterated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "[E]very action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible is intrinsically evil" (CCC 2370). "Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means . . . for example, direct sterilization or contraception" (CCC 2399).

The Church also has affirmed that the illicitness of contraception is an infallible doctrine: "The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative.aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive.aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life" (Vademecum for Confessors 2:4, Feb. 12, 1997).

 
Human Experience


Pope Paul VI predicted grave consequences that would arise from the widespread and unrestrained use of contraception. He warned, "Upright men can even better convince themselves of the solid grounds on which the teaching of the Church in this field is based if they care to reflect upon the consequences of methods of artificially limiting the increase of children. Let them consider, first of all, how wide and easy a road would thus be opened up towards conjugal infidelity and the general lowering of morality. Not much experience is needed in order to know human weakness, and to understand that men—especially the young, who are so vulnerable on this point—have need of encouragement to be faithful to the moral law, so that they must not be offered some easy means of eluding its observance. It is also to be feared that the man, growing used to the employment of anti-conceptive practices, may finally lose respect for the woman and, no longer caring for her physical and psychological equilibrium, may come to the point of considering her as a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment, and no longer as his respected and beloved companion" (HV 17).

No one can doubt the fulfillment of these prophetic words. They have all been more than fulfilled in this country as a result of the widespread availability of contraceptives, the "free love" movement that started in the 1960s, and the loose sexual morality that it spawned and that continues to pervade Western culture.

Indeed, recent studies reveal a far greater divorce rate in marriages in which contraception is regularly practiced than in those marriages where it is not. Experience, natural law, Scripture, Tradition, and the magisterium, all testify to the moral evil of contraception.

 
Wishful Thinking


Ignoring the mountain of evidence, some maintain that the Church considers the use of contraception a matter for each married couple to decide according to their "individual conscience." Yet, nothing could be further from the truth. The Church has always maintained the historic Christian teaching that deliberate acts of contraception are always gravely sinful, which means that it is mortally sinful if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent (CCC 1857). This teaching cannot be changed and has been taught by the Church infallibly.

There is no way to deny the fact that the Church has always and everywhere condemned artificial contraception. The matter has already been infallibly decided. The so-called "individual conscience" argument amounts to "individual disobedience." "


http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp




UPSG -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 1:06:36 PM)

- Fast Reply To Know One In Particular -


This is life in Africa (the city of Luanda in Angola where the Pope just visited) as well. Africa is not all just a story of starvation.  

Look at these people enjoying themselves and look at the ass on this woman. That woman didn’t get that ass from eating clay daily, for breakfast. I would be tagging that ass everyday, all night long.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS5lfVNJHVg&feature=related    

I’m going to assume this woman in the second clip is Black-American or from somewhere in the Americas. Compare the woman in the first clip to her – they both have nice, pronounce, majestic asses. Neither one is starving, and you can tell because there is no biological attributes suggesting that.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPhpZO2th44&feature=related









kittinSol -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 1:11:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

"Upright men can even better convince themselves of the solid grounds on which the teaching of the Church in this field is based if they care to reflect upon the consequences of methods of artificially limiting the increase of children. Let them consider, first of all, how wide and easy a road would thus be opened up towards conjugal infidelity and the general lowering of morality. Not much experience is needed in order to know human weakness, and to understand that men—especially the young, who are so vulnerable on this point—have need of encouragement to be faithful to the moral law, so that they must not be offered some easy means of eluding its observance. It is also to be feared that the man, growing used to the employment of anti-conceptive practices, may finally lose respect for the woman and, no longer caring for her physical and psychological equilibrium, may come to the point of considering her as a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment, and no longer as his respected and beloved companion" (HV 17).



That's got to be one of the most disgustingly patronising, superior and paternalistic piece of crap I've read in a long time. Thank you for posting this, Ven: it was educational.

Now I need a foot massage *stomp* [>:] .




Vendaval -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 1:19:51 PM)

You are welcome, kitten.  Perhaps you can schedule a pedicure ?




UPSG -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 1:36:03 PM)

The Church put itself in a jam on this issue with Humanae Vitae. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanae_Vitae

I've never personally read the document myself. I've read a number of people comment on it or short reference to the history of the document and from my understand a good portion of the Catholic Bishops opposed the anti-condoms stance the Church decided to take  with Humanae Vitae.

When I was a practicing Catholic one of the doctrines I had most trouble with was the idea that the Pope is elected per the movement of the Holy Spirit working through the Bishops or Cardinals that elect him. I regard that doctrine as more a result of politics within the Church in relation to the direction the modern world was taking, from democratization to other factors (good or bad).

I was not sure as a practicing Catholic how I felt about the doctrine of Papal Infallibility but it - and the other few doctrines I had trouble with - were never significant obstacles for me. By-and-large they punctuate very small - almost unnoticeable - in the daily life of a Catholic (most Catholics at least). All of those doctrines can find evidence (not always proofs) in the historical spirituality or theological flow, of the Church.

Many Catholics "Churchly" or "spiritual life" are punctuated by much greater reverberations from other Catholic outlooks or doctrines. For example, many Catholic parishes in the U.S. have sister parishes in more impoverished nations. My mother - who used to work as a lobbiest for the Catholic Church on behalf of poor, small farming families in the U.S. (they're dieing out to larger coporate farms) - spent time living with some poor family in a sister parish in some Latin American country. I remember her telling me the famnily lived in abject poverty with dirt floors and no running water. She stated that she was moved by the charity of these people, however, because they would welcome you in their home and share what little they had.

Charity, Mass, the Eucharsit, unity of the Church and the historical contitnuity spanning thousands of years, as well as various mystical and spiritual methods or movements and writings within the Catholic Church vibrates with greater force within most Catholics than the condom issue or even if whether or not the Holy Spitit is "helping" to pick the next Pope.

Kind of like whether or not an 18 year old boy should be charged as a sex criminal for having sex with his 17 year old girld friend (underagaged) is not a defineing mark on the sum of what it is to be "American."

Church politics will likely prevent the anti-condom doctrine from changing.

At the sametime, it might be noted, that if one likes to speak of sex as being "beautiful" (which 9 times out of 10 I don't view it as) or apply the overused word "spiritual" to it, then keeping sexual acts open to life and doing it out of love for spouse r partner, is applicable to "beauty" and being "spiritual."




UPSG -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 1:52:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Fast Reply -
 
Some specifics on the Catholic Church's teachings regarding contraception, from a Catholic Web-site.


"The Magisterium


The Church also, fulfilling the role given it by Christ as the identifier and interpreter of apostolic Scripture and apostolic tradition, has constantly condemned contraception as gravely sinful.

In Humanae Vitae, Pope Paul VI stated, "[W]e must once again declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun, and, above all, directly willed and procured abortion, even if for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as licit means of regulating birth. Equally to be excluded, as the teaching authority of the Church has frequently declared, is direct sterilization, whether perpetual or temporary, whether of the man or of the woman. Similarly excluded is every action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (HV 14).

This was reiterated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "[E]very action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible is intrinsically evil" (CCC 2370). "Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means . . . for example, direct sterilization or contraception" (CCC 2399).

The Church also has affirmed that the illicitness of contraception is an infallible doctrine: "The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative.aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive.aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life" (Vademecum for Confessors 2:4, Feb. 12, 1997).

 
Human Experience


Pope Paul VI predicted grave consequences that would arise from the widespread and unrestrained use of contraception. He warned, "Upright men can even better convince themselves of the solid grounds on which the teaching of the Church in this field is based if they care to reflect upon the consequences of methods of artificially limiting the increase of children. Let them consider, first of all, how wide and easy a road would thus be opened up towards conjugal infidelity and the general lowering of morality. Not much experience is needed in order to know human weakness, and to understand that men—especially the young, who are so vulnerable on this point—have need of encouragement to be faithful to the moral law, so that they must not be offered some easy means of eluding its observance. It is also to be feared that the man, growing used to the employment of anti-conceptive practices, may finally lose respect for the woman and, no longer caring for her physical and psychological equilibrium, may come to the point of considering her as a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment, and no longer as his respected and beloved companion" (HV 17).

No one can doubt the fulfillment of these prophetic words. They have all been more than fulfilled in this country as a result of the widespread availability of contraceptives, the "free love" movement that started in the 1960s, and the loose sexual morality that it spawned and that continues to pervade Western culture.

Indeed, recent studies reveal a far greater divorce rate in marriages in which contraception is regularly practiced than in those marriages where it is not. Experience, natural law, Scripture, Tradition, and the magisterium, all testify to the moral evil of contraception.

 
Wishful Thinking


Ignoring the mountain of evidence, some maintain that the Church considers the use of contraception a matter for each married couple to decide according to their "individual conscience." Yet, nothing could be further from the truth. The Church has always maintained the historic Christian teaching that deliberate acts of contraception are always gravely sinful, which means that it is mortally sinful if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent (CCC 1857). This teaching cannot be changed and has been taught by the Church infallibly.

There is no way to deny the fact that the Church has always and everywhere condemned artificial contraception. The matter has already been infallibly decided. The so-called "individual conscience" argument amounts to "individual disobedience." "


http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp


Regarding what I highlighted in bold blue, that squares with modern feminist complaints, that women are treated as non-human sex objects in Western media and especially in porn. Not that I entirely agree with feminists on this, but apparently Catholic doctrine does all to well.

The Catholic ideal of sex - proper sex - is never achieved or at least not so by most Catholics or people. In the Catholic view the spiritually matured marital partners have sex primarily for procreation and secondarily for marital love wherein both are "equal."

Domination and submission as the Catholic Church acknowledges, is involved in just about all human sexual activity to varying degrees. To "bang your wife" doggy style is for both to engage in a fetish of sex where one generally exchanges "power" through the play of "dominant" and "submissive."

Personally, I'm not aroused by sexual play that assumes strict equality. I'm aroused by either a woman being "dominated" or by her being the "dominant." In general, "lovey-dovey" sex of equality, does not stimulate me.




kittinSol -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 2:46:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG

Personally, I'm not aroused by sexual play that assumes strict equality. I'm aroused by either a woman being "dominated" or by her being the "dominant." In general, "lovey-dovey" sex of equality, does not stimulate me.



Which is precisely why you're on this website [sm=biggrin.gif] .




kittinSol -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 2:59:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

You are welcome, kitten.  Perhaps you can schedule a pedicure ?



With the state of my feet right now? No way! I've got to work on them first, after this horrible New England winter (I'm the kind of person who washes her hair before going to the hairdresser).




Vendaval -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 3:00:36 PM)

I totally understand.  lol....




rulemylife -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 4:42:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval


 
Wishful Thinking


Ignoring the mountain of evidence, some maintain that the Church considers the use of contraception a matter for each married couple to decide according to their "individual conscience." Yet, nothing could be further from the truth. The Church has always maintained the historic Christian teaching that deliberate acts of contraception are always gravely sinful, which means that it is mortally sinful if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent (CCC 1857). This teaching cannot be changed and has been taught by the Church infallibly.

There is no way to deny the fact that the Church has always and everywhere condemned artificial contraception. The matter has already been infallibly decided. The so-called "individual conscience" argument amounts to "individual disobedience." "


http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp



I can only think it's Divine intervention that I never get laid, so I can remain true to my Catholic vows.

Praise Jesus and his Holiness, the Pope.




scarlethiney -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 5:05:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Come down here. I mean it, take a ride with me through the bowels of this city and see how people are living. See how people treat each other and are backstabbers and thieves, how they will beat up their supposed loved ones and tell me after the grand tour how much you care. You CAN'T care and be able to just shake it off like water in the shower. Even though we lost around half of the population in Cleveland proper,  we still have large families living in two room apartments, while foreclosed homes sit empty just a block or two away. Everyone is out to get over on everyone else.

All you people living in the lush subirbs in this country, I am serious, I will rent a tour bus and give you an excursion you'll never ever forget. And this is their daily life. Let's make it sometime in June,  when we can go under the bridges and see how people live, and you only have to imagine how they made it though the winter. These are my fellow Citizens, my countrymen, and you expect me to care about things in bumfukt Africa ?

What's worse is that in this polluted environment, they can't even eat the dirt.

I wonder what my hate score would be after such an excursion, attended of course by my most adamant critics. Things I see almost every fucking day.

And there are things that are impossible to show you. I have witnessed a real kidnapping in broad daylight, but back then there were few cellphones and I was hopelessly stuck in traffic therefore I was unable to do a damn thing about it.

If I could roll up all that I have seen in life and put it into a one day show, it would most likely give you a nervous breakdown. And my hating friends, that is just from witnessing it, not living it.

T


Oh please Term. Do  you honesty think you've cornered some market or have the exclusive rights to having witnessed real poverty, hate and criminal activity??????   Your arrogance and judgment are legendary. The difference here is there are plenty of people on this forum, in this country who have witnessed things you can't even begin to imagine without suffering a nervous break down and still remain compassionate and open to caring for others. Stop the posturing and call it what it is.
I think Kittin pretty much nailed it.






Vendaval -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 5:10:01 PM)

*Warning, crude, rude, and offensive to many
   Not politically correct 
   Not Work Safe

   http://www.divine-interventions.com/  


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
I can only think it's Divine intervention that I never get laid, so I can remain true to my Catholic vows.

Praise Jesus and his Holiness, the Pope.




E2Sweet -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 5:15:52 PM)

I believe the analogy regarding traffic patterns is incorrect. Highway traffic tends to bunch up because the drivers at the rear desire and are attempting to go faster than the cars at the front, but cannot. No more no less.

As for the commentary on condoms and allowing seemingly innocent people to suffer and die due to ignorance via lack of education... Truly asinine.




rulemylife -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 5:23:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

*Warning, crude, rude, and offensive to many
   Not politically correct 
   Not Work Safe

   http://www.divine-interventions.com/  


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
I can only think it's Divine intervention that I never get laid, so I can remain true to my Catholic vows.

Praise Jesus and his Holiness, the Pope.



You're a sick woman.



But I think I kind of like that  [:D]





Vendaval -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 5:29:29 PM)

Thank you.  12 years of forced parochial schooling does certain things to your mind and sensibilities.




rulemylife -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 5:34:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Thank you.  12 years of forced parochial schooling does certain things to your mind and sensibilities.


Nine here, before I finally talked then out of it.




Vendaval -> RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? (3/24/2009 5:51:10 PM)

* You have C-Mail.




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