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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/25/2009 1:57:37 PM   
MadAxeman


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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/25/2009 1:58:47 PM   
UPSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

UPSG, what the fuck have you been reading that makes you believe you are educated?
Can one get a degree in self important windbaggery in America?
What is an A.A degree - Arseheaded Attitude?
If so, you don't need to take that class. You could teach it.
Do you just start typing and become so impressed with the pretty letters that you can't stop until you need another Red Bull?
'I've read a few books' well read a few hundred, or try writing one.
'Maybe I'm a genius' shall we take a poll?
Please stop posting. You are hurting my (full sized) head.



That would be ad hominem, or stated another way, to attack the arguer and not the argument. Ad hominem attacks are generally believed to say more about the person making the personal attack than about the person being personally attacked. This is a classic resort of people that have little of worth in rebuttal.

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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/25/2009 2:01:52 PM   
UPSG


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Status: offline 		The Chinese take a different approach to Africa - and issues of development tie into current and future matters of HIV.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/126/special-report-china-in-africa.html    
quote:

While America is preoccupied with the war in Iraq (cost: half a trillion dollars and counting), and while think-tank economists continue to spit out papers debating whether vital resources are running out at all, China's leadership isn't taking any chances. In just a few years, the People's Republic of China (PRC) has become the most aggressive investor-nation in Africa. This commercial invasion is without question the most important development in the sub-Sahara since the end of the Cold War -- an epic, almost primal propulsion that is redrawing the global economic map. One former U.S. assistant secretary of state has called it a "tsunami." Some are even calling the region "ChinAfrica."
quote:

There are already more Chinese living in Nigeria than there were Britons during the height of the empire.
quote:

No other major power has shown the same interest or muscle, or the sheer ability to cozy up to African leaders. And unlike America's faltering effort in Iraq, the Chinese ain't spreading democracy, folks. They're there to get what they need to feed the machine. The phenomenon even has a name on the ground in the sub-Sahara: the Great Chinese Takeout.
    http://www.american.com/archive/2006/november/chinas-new-scramble-for-africa  
quote:

The Chinese have been exercising these philosophies with a vengeance. Earlier this month, Beijing played host to a two-day summit that brought together the heads of state of virtually every country in Africa. Its outcome – $1.9 billion in new business deals, a pledge by President Hu Jintao for $5 billion in aid and loans, and a promise to double aid to Africa by 2009 – leaves no doubt of the pivotal role the Chinese believe Africa will play in their future.
quote:

Chinese industrialization, unfolding at an unprecedented speed, is driving a ravenous demand for raw materials and new markets. In this sense, China is pursuing the same trajectory taken by many post-industrial countries at critical moments in their economic history: Europe's colonization of Africa; US imperialism in Latin America; Japan's occupations of China and Korea. China hopes it can help sustain its economic expansion by turning Africa into a sphere of influence.
quote:

What makes this story remarkable is that for the first time since the end of colonial rule, a major power sees in Africa not a charity case, a landscape of endless need, but as an exceptional strategic and business opportunity.


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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/25/2009 2:42:18 PM   
UPSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Edited to add - (Reply to UPSG, not E2Sweet)
 
You are confusing the nature and nuture dichotomy.


quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
...Non-Catholics can't understand certain things about Catholics or Catholicism. They just can't. Their instincts are developed differently...




Ven,

I don't know what you are referring to? Development of instincts would fall under nurture.

Catholics and Protestants (Lutheran and Calvinist branches of theological thought) view human nature differently. The Catholic view is that everything God created is good and hence human nature is essentially good. Protestants (at least the ones I was referring to) view human nature as being entirely fucked up. I know because when I was a practicing Catholic I got into enough debates with them - and for some this was one of the evidence of the "evils" of the Catholic Church. And I've frequently heard various Protestants speak of themselves in very disparaging ways.

Many Protestants believe the Christian Church is invisible. Catholics believe the Christian Church is both visible and invisible. This all ties into the issue of saints and sinners. Most Protestants would not view me as "saved" and not just because of my "catholicity" per se.

However, I admit there are so many Protestant denominations today that you really can't say what Protestants believe per se other than they all claim to only go by the Bible.

While I disagree with Protestants on a number of things I have admired quite a few of them. One in particular that's a rural, white, Republican from a Calvinist background who has no college education (but he's a military vet). He's one of the best persons I've ever met in my life.

Understand that I don't go around bothering Protestants, or anyone, including Satan worshipers or atheists. Generally they either come running their mouth to me, or they start blasting on Catholicism on forums like this. That's generally how I get into it with them.

And I don't have a problem with people that are of a different race or country than me. I don't have a problem with Africans in general. What I do have a problem with is having to go into discussion groups in a college class and have young men of a certain race and socio-economic background, totally ignore Asian members of the discussion group as if they are invisible, and carry on among themselves with "answers" having at best half-ass read the material. I don't necessarily appreciate when I interject an informed (read the goddamn material) opinion, and jaws start to tighten.

All that said, I would rather get off both the topic of race and the Catholic Church, and rather back on Africa. The Brazilians are learning Chinese, and both the Chinese and Brazilians are increasing their economic interests in Africa and the Middle East. All this leads me to believe I better plan on learning Chinese in the future and not just Spanish and Portuguese.  

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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/25/2009 2:50:28 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG

I don't know what you are referring to? Development of instincts would fall under nurture.



Rofl!!! Do you actually READ the things that you write? Instincts are present at birth, they're inherited sets of behaviour, and as such the debate still rages as to whether human beings even have them anymore. They are not learnt, and they do not 'fall under nurture'. Dear oh dear  ...

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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/25/2009 2:57:43 PM   
Vendaval


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"instinct

An inherited tendency of an organism to behave in a certain way, usually in reaction to its environment and for the purpose of fulfilling a specific need. The development and performance of instinctive behavior does not depend upon the specific details of an individual's learning experiences. Instead, instinctive behavior develops in the same way for all individuals of the same species or of the same sex of a species. For example, birds will build the form of nest typical of their species although they may never have seen such a nest being built before. Some butterfly species undertake long migrations to wintering grounds that they have never seen. Behavior in animals often reflects the influence of a combination of instinct and learning. The basic song pattern of many bird species is inherited, but it is often refined by learning from other members of the species. Dogs that naturally seek to gather animals such as sheep or cattle into a group are said to have a herding instinct, but the effective use of this instinct by the dog also requires learning on the dog's part. Instinct, as opposed to reflex, is usually used of inherited behavior patterns that are more complex or sometimes involve a degree of interaction with learning processes. "


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/instinct's?qsrc=2446

(format edit)

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 3/25/2009 2:59:11 PM >

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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/25/2009 2:59:38 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Instincts are present at birth, they're inherited sets of behaviour

Does that include the 'gut instinct'?

what about 'The killer instinct'?
 
Gut instinct => What is for breakfast
The killer instinct => What is for lunch.
 
As is life so is that etc.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 3/25/2009 3:01:25 PM >

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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/25/2009 5:44:34 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG

Development of instincts would fall under nurture.



...ok, let's be kind here. Perhaps what UPSG was clumsily trying to suggest is that the decision whether or not to act on instincts can be seen as a learned behaviour.
Therefore nurture, as opposed to nature.

(the above post was brought to you by the Coalition for Even Handed Pedantry)

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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/25/2009 9:30:03 PM   
UPSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG

I don't know what you are referring to? Development of instincts would fall under nurture.



Rofl!!! Do you actually READ the things that you write? Instincts are present at birth, they're inherited sets of behaviour, and as such the debate still rages as to whether human beings even have them anymore. They are not learnt, and they do not 'fall under nurture'. Dear oh dear  ...


Fine. I stand corrected. I was using the term as I understood it used in the everyday vernacular. If I was wrong I was wrong.

It's a sign of character to be able to admit when you have been wrong about something, and I learned that in the Marine Corps if no where else. I won't hold my breath waiting for anyone else to do so. I have in fact - like all human beings - been wrong numerous times throughout the course of my life. The Corps, however, instilled in me the ability to readily admit error if I have convincingly discovered I've erred. For example, I voted for George Bush the first time (the first Republican I ever voted for) and I went along and supported his invasion of Iraq. When I became convinced I made an error I admitted it and did not attempt to excuse it or deny it to liberals and those that opposed the invasion. I was once a very ardent supporter of Israel but once I became convinced I was wrong about that I simply admitted and changed my position.

I have not once in any of the threads seen anyone simply admit they were wrong about something - generally related to Catholicism - when I provided information to them showing they were wrong. I have not seen it once regarded the rather degrading stereotypes people have of Africans in this thread admit they were wrong.






That aside, Time magazine, dated March 23, 2009, list as #6 of the 10 ideas changing the world, business investment in Africa.

Some excerpts.
quote:

In Africa's case, the perception has long been... Africa is hopeless, a place of war and famine seemingly populated almost entirely by tyrants and children with flies in their eyes. According to this view, if Africa generates any kind of growth, it is in suffering...


quote:

Most Africans are not middle class, but most also no longer live in extreme poverty.


quote:

Chinese engineers are at work across the continent, mining copper in Zambia and cobalt in the Democratic Republic of Congo and tapping oil in Angola. Nor is this merely exploitative. China bought its access by agreeing to create a new infrastructure for Africa, building roads, railways, hospitals and schools across the continent.


quote:

Ecobank CEO Ekpe says part of the explanation for China's zeal for Africa is a new and way of looking at Africans. "[The Chinese] are not setting out to do good," he says. "They are setting out to do business. It's actually much less demeaning."


Some of my new ways of looking at the world are actually not entirely of my own creation. Some of it has been influenced by a new swell of mulattoes attempting to think of things in new ways (quite a number of mulattoes in the U.S. seem to have German ancestry or Jewish ancestry). A mulatto of Jewish ancestry has influenced my thoughts about the Arab and Asian world for instance. Actually, he's influenced my views on a number of things. He's fairly educated guy also. But it's give and take I suppose, because I supposedly have influenced his views on Latinos and Africans, which have generally been closer to my heart and thoughts than Arabs and Asians. But my mind has really opened up toward the Arab and Asian world - not least of which helped by my fond memories in the UAE. That Brazilian college classes on Chinese culture and language are reoprted always filled has had an impact on my thoughts too.

Basically the old tired U.S. view of Africa as child like creatures incapable of anything but starving and begging for charity, and that Israel and Europe are the only ones I'm supposed to support for military causes, are no longer a paradigm I hold to.

It is fine if others do. I'm on no crusade to change American minds on anything. I'll argue my opinion to a point but that's it. Black male unemployment rate in Milwaukee - within the prime working age - is around 50% or so. One black social scientist sitting on a panel discussion at my university put the real figure more at around 70% (which is more what I figured because I was already aware how "unemployment" is calculated is some what deceptive). Throughout the "Frost Belt" cities the picture is really no better. Frankly, those figures are worth rioting and civil war. I'm afraid to say the situation is only likely to get worse for a number of reasons. Cleveland I thank to God I don't live in - it's a third world shit hole compared to Dubai. But then again one of my friends that lived through some very turbulant times in Guatamala with the death squads claims there are a number of third world areas in the U.S.

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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/26/2009 12:05:32 AM   
MadAxeman


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Status: offline 		What argument are you referring to?
There is no coherent train of thought to your posts, and that train is taking up a lot of track.
Perhaps you confuse ad nauseum with ad hominem.


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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/26/2009 12:11:16 AM   
Vendaval


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These long rambling posts would be more appropriate on your journal page or maybe you want to start a blog somewhere.

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 3/26/2009 12:18:03 AM >

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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/26/2009 3:18:59 AM   
UPSG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

UPSG,
 
These long rambling posts would be more appropriate on your journal page or maybe you want to start a blog somewhere.


I just have higher regard for the Chinese than Americans (and perhaps Europeans as well) when it comes to Africa. There are over 100,000 Chinese working in Africa now. Many Chinese are in Latin America now as well. I tire of Americans trying to tell people how to think (e.g. overthrowing Hugo Chavez). I have run into this with Europeans online as well... with comments about they need to tell Brazil they can't cut down anymore trees. This same line of reasoning has people that aren't even Catholic talking about who shouldn't be Pope.

Last I checked Chavez is President, Brazil cuts down trees, and Benedict XVI is Pope. No one is listening.

Americans would do better to take care of their debt. I swear to God whenever I have discussed and asked questions about Islam with Muslims online it has always remained respectful. I've never attacked them with comments like, "That's bullshit" and started on rants against them. I'll state respectfully I disagree with them on certain points (namely men having several wives, but the women not allowed to have several husbands) and I'll generally add that my Catholic shaping or upbringing has something to do with that. Almost without a doubt they understand and neither side leaves with animosity.

I find this is a better way to dialogue with people that come from a different culture or history than you. And I've discussed Islam with a Muslim woman. At all times I made sure I was respectful towards her faith and the traditions she came from.

In fact one of the things that greatly attracts me about Brazilian culture is its great tolerance towards differing peoples. There are people with prejudices of course and it's not a paradise, but where else do you find a transsexual mixed with African, Indian, and European ancestry, that's Catholic, wears a crucifix, and practice Candomble? I love it. Muslim, Christian, Pagan, Jew, atheist and whatever... they all get along. By-and-large it would appear.

The IDF never came to rescue people in the Rwandan genocide. If the Pope visits Angola and the Black-Africans there cheer and appreciate his visit, to me that is their business. They do not have to turn the Pope away because European whites slaughtered other European whites (Nazis killing Jews). Israel and the IDF take care of their own - as they should - and they're not running around the world rescuing everyone. Hugo Chavez, Lula of Brazil, and the great giants of China and India are going to give us "a new way to look at the world." I hope and wish Africa and the Middle East the same - no matter if they're Catholic, Muslim, Pagan or whatever.

As for now there seems to be more Catholics and Chinese, in certain parts of Africa, helping the Black-Africans at ground level, than Jew or Atheist (Protestants and Hindus are helping to I suppose).

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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/26/2009 3:34:34 AM   
UPSG


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Status: offline 		I was never actually very fond of this Pope - in fact I was angered when he was elected - but the attacks on Catholicism and on him for little to know reason moved me to close in ranks with him. I've actually grown fonder of him after some of these trades on the board - I consequently read some thing on him I didn't know. I knew he was very educated but I didn't know he spoke so many languages.

Actually I would not have ever taken the time to read this if it were not for this thread. (and I like his sentiments and comments on Africa far better than I do any other person's in this thread)

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2009/march/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20090317_africa-interview_en.html  
quote:

Q. – Holy Father, good morning. I will ask the question in Italian, but perhaps you could kindly answer in French … The Special Council for Africa of the Synod of Bishops has asked that the quantitative growth of the Church in Africa should also become a qualitative growth. At times, the leaders of the Church are thought of as a wealthy and privileged group, and their conduct is not consistent with the proclamation of the Gospel. Will you invite the Church in Africa to make a commitment to an examination of conscience and a purification of its structures?
quote:

A. – I shall try, if I can, to speak in French. I have a more positive view of the Church in Africa: it is a Church that is very close to the poor, a Church with suffering members, with people who need assistance, and thus it seems to me that the Church is truly an institution that still functions even when other structures no longer function, through her system of education, health care, assistance, in all these situations, she is present in the world of the poor and the suffering. Naturally, original sin is also present in the Church; there is not a perfect society, and therefore there are also sinners and shortcomings in the Church in Africa, and in this sense, an examination of conscience, an interior purification is always necessary. I would think of the eucharistic liturgy in this context – we always begin with a purification of conscience and a new beginning in the Lord’s presence. I would also say that, more than a purification of structures – which is always necessary as well – a purification of hearts is needed, because structures are the reflection of hearts. We do what we can to give new impetus to spirituality, to the presence of God in our hearts, both to purify the structures of the Church, and also to assist the purification of the structures of society.


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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/26/2009 3:50:49 AM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		I've known several intelligent people that spoke multiple languages. It didn't make them admirable or worthy of leading people.

As for what the pope said in that snippit, it reminds me of far too many political speeches I've heard. A lot of blah blah blah blah, to cover up that they will simply continue on with their own agenda while using the smoke screen of doing something wonderful for the poor lost souls in the world.

When the catholic church sells off its huge fortune, in art, real estate, etc.......and gives it all towards actually DOING something seriously productive in this world, instead of hiding behind it and preaching a bunch of outdated nonsense, I might give them some small amount of consideration as a worth while organization.

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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/26/2009 3:54:18 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

When the catholic church sells off its huge fortune, in art, real estate, etc.......and gives it all towards actually DOING something seriously productive in this world, instead of hiding behind it and preaching a bunch of outdated nonsense, I might give them some small amount of consideration as a worth while organization.





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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/26/2009 4:39:48 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman


There is no coherent train of thought to your posts, and that train is taking up a lot of track.







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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/26/2009 9:44:23 AM   
ArmoredOne


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Status: offline 		Term brings up a few exceptionally valid points in his arguments, even if he is trying to incite the masses.  Granted, the direction that he/she is trying to get them to look is quite refreshing, but then again, I'm a fairly vicious bastage myself so that might have something to do with the agreement factor.

What's wrong with the concept of survival of the fittest?  Hells, we, as a species, are only a few thousand years out of the jungle, proverbially speaking.  It is still hard wired into us, but it takes on new perspectives instead of simple food and procreation.

We admire the strongest.  The fastest runner, the biggest football player, the baseball player that hits the most homeruns.  We admire the young ones that win the spelling contests or write the winning essay.  Perhaps it is not as animalistic as the strongest wolves taking down the lame elk for food, but it is still there, but in our own egotistical views, we are so much better than the 'lower' species on this planet.

Too many wolves and not enough deer and the wolves starve until the predator population can actually be supported by the prey population.  The wolves don't just call up the factory and ask for more deer to be delivered.  They accept this as part of the natural order.  We, as humans, sit back and mourn the starving wolves, or call for hunting to thin the herds, but that is just more of our arrogance in our supremacy that we can choose what lives and what dies in the spirit of compassion.

Personally, I am all for dropping enough machetes and other chopping style weapons into Africa, then building a nice thick batch of barbed wire around the entire continent and let them sort it out themselves.

If a bridge has a weight capacity of 5,000 pounds before it actually breaks, would you purposely put 7,500 pounds of people on it intentionally?  The agricultural 'bridge' in Africa can only support so many people, but yet they keep breeding like rabbits snorting powdered Viagra.  They are intentionally forcing that 'bridge' to break, and yet, the rest of the world is supposed to produce enough food to feed them, as well as the billion in India and the over billion in China?  How long until the 'bridge' in the U.S. breaks because of places like Africa?

Yes, sex is fun and exciting.  With that many nerve endings down there, it's not exactly all that shocking that it feels good.  Big freaking deal.  At least China has the right idea by limiting how many children a family can have.

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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/26/2009 9:53:30 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArmoredOne

Personally, I am all for dropping enough machetes and other chopping style weapons into Africa, then building a nice thick batch of barbed wire around the entire continent and let them sort it out themselves.



I always wonder what kind of lunacy inspires people to write things like that. Do you realise what you're saying there, or are you just blinded by hate?

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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/26/2009 10:01:47 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"even if he is trying to incite the masses"

I don't think I would have chosen the word incite, but then that is a subjective view.

However I accept it as a valid opinion. Sometimes perhaps I am testingmy core beliefs against the fire and brimstone of this merry group.

T

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RE: Condoms in Africa, best you can do ? - 3/26/2009 10:45:38 AM   
Vendaval


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

UPSG,
 
These long rambling posts would be more appropriate on your journal page or maybe you want to start a blog somewhere.


No one is listening.



_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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