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The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 12:55:49 PM   
cantilena


Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4
quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode
quote:

I found you becasue you were sub, I expect you to be sub.

I've found that a good proportion of women that think they are subs have in fact a controlling personality, and "top from the bottom". You need to test for that.

I've encountered this too along with a variety of different tactics.


In a thread in the BDSM Discussion area - http://www.collarchat.com/m_2520001/mpage_2/tm.htm - two dominants I've come to respect over my time reading here had the quoted exchange, referring to topping from the bottom.  So that I don't hijack that thread, I thought I'd ask for clarification here.  I'm 100% positive that this has been discussed before, but I'd like to hear views from the current posters as well.

In your opinion, what constitutes topping from the bottom?  Is it always a bad thing in your mind, and for your relationship(s)?  Why?

Thank you in advance for any discussion.

{edited for spelling error}

< Message edited by cantilena -- 3/22/2009 12:56:58 PM >
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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 1:12:37 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		submissive bottom: Please hurt me.
Topping from the bottom: Hurt me. Now!

It's all in the intent, which often leads to the delivery.

Master Fire


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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 2:40:26 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		There's no such thing.

If you're topping from the bottom then the Dom/me is allowing it.

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 2:50:44 PM   
StrongSpirit


Posts: 575
Joined: 4/10/2005
Status: offline 		Look, there is sadism and masochism,  dominance and submission. 

If you are a dominant masochist, you top from the bottom.  There is nothing wrong with that.  In fact, there are a LOT of submissive sadists out there.  Many of them think they are dominant because they are sadists, so the only hard part is finding them.



I am a dominant that is only a little bit sadistic.  I don't have a huge desire to hurt my sub - I want to control her instead.


Here is a good test to see if a 'sub' is really a dominant masochist.  Ask them if a partner asked to play with them and only wanted to roleplay - no pain whatsoever, would would you think about this.  If it sounds boring, then the sub is not submissive.   A true sub needs NO pain at all.  If the pain is necessary they are a masochist, not a sub.


< Message edited by StrongSpirit -- 3/22/2009 2:51:57 PM >

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 3:13:11 PM   
twoisnotenough


Posts: 52
Joined: 3/15/2009
From: Knoxville TN
Status: offline 		I understand everyones point of view from the angle its being presented. There seems to be a bit of terminology thing happening that is confusing to some of the onlurkers (only a minor play on words.. but i might keep it). It sounds to me that the Dom in question is simply stating that many claimed submissive females are not submissive at all, but dominant personalitys working the Dominant from the position of the Submissive.. IE you see the puppet.. you dont see the dude pulling puppets strings.. he is saying that many subs try to run the show from the bottom.. IE subversion of a type

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 4:47:27 PM   
cantilena


Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

submissive bottom: Please hurt me.
Topping from the bottom: Hurt me. Now!

It's all in the intent, which often leads to the delivery.

Master Fire



Thanks. That's always been along the lines of how I understand it also.

I guess the lines blur for me between honest communication with my partner, expressing needs, and sometimes in finding necessary compromise in a long-term relationship.  It's never about demanding or manipulation, but sure, there are times when serious discussion has taken place about wants, needs, and the dynamic in general. 

To that end, we've worked out as a couple how we live together in harmony many years ago, but it's interesting to me to understand how other people view this topic.  It seems to be a huge hot button with dominants and I guess I'm trying to understand why.  Trying to understand exactly what kinds of behavior in their partners get the label - and what kinds don't.

Thanks again for your input!

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 4:50:58 PM   
cantilena


Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

There's no such thing.

If you're topping from the bottom then the Dom/me is allowing it.



Are you saying that if it works for the couple, then it's not topping from the bottom at all? 

I'm not sure I agree.  I'll have to think about that one... :)

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 4:53:28 PM   
cantilena


Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit

Look, there is sadism and masochism,  dominance and submission. 

If you are a dominant masochist, you top from the bottom.  There is nothing wrong with that.  In fact, there are a LOT of submissive sadists out there.  Many of them think they are dominant because they are sadists, so the only hard part is finding them.



I am a dominant that is only a little bit sadistic.  I don't have a huge desire to hurt my sub - I want to control her instead.


Here is a good test to see if a 'sub' is really a dominant masochist.  Ask them if a partner asked to play with them and only wanted to roleplay - no pain whatsoever, would would you think about this.  If it sounds boring, then the sub is not submissive.   A true sub needs NO pain at all.  If the pain is necessary they are a masochist, not a sub.



First, I think the concept of topping from the bottom extends beyond masochistic needs.  I'm thinking dominants may react to certain behaviors from subs even who are not into pain.  But I do get what you're saying here.

Second, even if he or she might find the scene you describe boring, he or she may still submit...

Thanks for your thoughts.

{edited for clarity... hopefully!}

< Message edited by cantilena -- 3/22/2009 5:07:21 PM >

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 4:54:30 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline 		Reposted from an old thread:




quote:

ORIGINAL: Elorin

I found it particularly humbling to ask for something when in D/s when I faced the fact that whether I got it or not was entirely up to him. If I were to ask for things with the expectation of getting them it would be gratifying, or frustrating. But when I prepared myself to ask for something, knowing that the answer could very well be no, it was a very humbling experience.





Beautifully stated, Elorin.  I totally agree.  For me, that is the big difference between simply asking and "topping from the bottom."  It's all in the spirit of humility I have when I ask and the fact that, like you, I am totally aware the answer could be "no."  And then - if it is - the respectful behavior I continue to exhibit.  In our home, asking isn't controlling or "topping" because requests aren't demands and I have no expectations of always getting what I ask for when I ask for it.

In another old thread, I said this:  "I've said it a million times before here in the forums:  In my relationship, asking is not topping.  Master is perfectly capable of denying my request.  It's not like me asking for something is kryptonite that makes Him wilt and have to give it to me.  I ask and then, as ownedgirlie said, can and do act with respect if I am denied. 

Honestly, if Master found out I needed something as badly as you did in this situation you described and I held back and refused to ask Him, He'd be seriously pissed and disappointed.  It's not up to me to decide what needs/feelings I should share with Him.  I tell Him and He deals with all of them and never considers it "topping" for me to ask for something I feel I need.  He'll make the final call on whether it's a need or a want and I trust Him totally to make the right decision."
 
And finally..........."So many subs/slaves are so terrified of being seen as "topping from the bottom," that they will sit there with their mouths shut withholding information until communication completely breaks down. 

I'm sorry but I just can't grasp that concept.  I never attempt to actively control what goes on in our relationship but if there is something important on my mind, I'm not only allowed but damn well expected to give it voice.  It's not "topping" if you don't have the authority to make the decisions.  It's simply speaking your opinion or needs or whathaveyou.  If done so with respect and with the realization that you may or may not "get your way" or influence the decision that is made, that is NOT "topping."  It is being open and honest and communicative.

Just because I need to express myself or just because I may feel the need to ask for something He hasn't picked up on that I need at the moment, that doesn't mean I'm in control of anything.  As His slave, I ask.  He always has the right and ability to say "no."  It's like so many subs/slaves think that all they have to do is ask for something and their dom/master has encountered kryptonite and can't refuse.  Believe me, my Master can and does.  My asking doesn't guarantee I'll get it.  Basically to us, it comes alot closer to "topping" for me to sit here needing to talk and express myself and refusing to do so.  That is holding back, that is being deceptive, and that is - in my own way - controlling things.  That is not permitted. 

I still feel the same way...................luci



< Message edited by slaveluci -- 3/22/2009 5:04:50 PM >

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 4:58:39 PM   
cantilena


Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twoisnotenough

I understand everyones point of view from the angle its being presented. There seems to be a bit of terminology thing happening that is confusing to some of the onlurkers (only a minor play on words.. but i might keep it). It sounds to me that the Dom in question is simply stating that many claimed submissive females are not submissive at all, but dominant personalitys working the Dominant from the position of the Submissive.. IE you see the puppet.. you dont see the dude pulling puppets strings.. he is saying that many subs try to run the show from the bottom.. IE subversion of a type


This is where I get confused. 

How exactly are these subs trying to run the show from the bottom?  If they have dominant personalities, why are they trying to fit into a submissive role in the first place?

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 5:03:54 PM   
cantilena


Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for those thoughts, slaveluce.  I agree, and it sounds a lot like what (usually) happens in this house too.  I don't believe asking is topping from the bottom.  And I don't believe in making demands or acting out either.

I also don't always believe that his decision is always the right one, though.  That's where compromise and discussion come into play with us. Over much time, that's been a necessity and real-life application.

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 5:07:18 PM   
bamabbwsub


Posts: 566
Joined: 5/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

How exactly are these subs trying to run the show from the bottom?  If they have dominant personalities, why are they trying to fit into a submissive role in the first place?


I have a rather dominant personality that stems from my being single and independent (not that that makes every single and independent person a dominant, mind you).  I clearly state on my profile that I need someone that I can respect, first and foremost.  The reason for that being that if a dominant man doesn't take the lead, then someone has to, and it will be me.  If, however, I am with a strong dominant man who has earned my respect, I will cheerfully submit to him because I trust him implicitly.

I hope that makes sense.  :)

_____________________________

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 5:10:42 PM   
cantilena


Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bamabbwsub

I have a rather dominant personality that stems from my being single and independent (not that that makes every single and independent person a dominant, mind you).  I clearly state on my profile that I need someone that I can respect, first and foremost.  The reason for that being that if a dominant man doesn't take the lead, then someone has to, and it will be me.  If, however, I am with a strong dominant man who has earned my respect, I will cheerfully submit to him because I trust him implicitly.

I hope that makes sense.  :)


Total sense. :)


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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 5:11:12 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cantilena
I also don't always believe that his decision is always the right one, though.  That's where compromise and discussion come into play with us. Over much time, that's been a necessity and real-life application.

Oh, totally agreed, cantilena.  Especially if there's a situation where I may be in possession of some information or knowledge that He is not, I'm expected to share it and better enable Him to make the best, most appropriate decisions.  Sitting there quietly not sharing just to appear that I'm not "topping" isn't what He expects.  He loves discussion and compromise but always has the final say in all matters.  That's how we like it...............luci

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 5:28:11 PM   
LovingMistress45


Posts: 271
Joined: 2/7/2009
Status: offline 		Personally I think this whole topping from the bottom thing is just a way for the dominant to say they are unhappy or for someone to judge another's relationship in terms of what they want in a relationship.  There is so much variety in how people express dominance or submission and I think sometime we spend too much time trying to decide if something makes someone dominant or submissive.  What matters is if it works for the 2 or more involved in the relationship.  Not everyone wants a M/s relationship, not everyone is into S&M play, and not everyone wants 24/7.

I am in agreement with littlewonder - there is no such thing.  I can only be topped if I allow it.  A submissive or for that matter any person can not control me unless I allow it (I am not including crimes of violence here).  I always have a choice in how I respond.  Now what you might have is a submissive (bottom, masochist) that does not meet your needs as a dominant.

I also think at times what is a submissive adjusting to a new relationship, coming to terms with the conflict between their internal desires and the external conflicts, learning and growing is seen as topping from the bottom - I don't agree.

I also don't see asking for the "why" behind something  or asking for what you want as topping from the bottom.

Now "I will be submissive to you if you do xyz to/for me" is an attempt to top from the bottom, but it is only successful if I allow it to be.

< Message edited by LovingMistress45 -- 3/22/2009 5:33:14 PM >

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 5:37:49 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cantilena

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

There's no such thing.

If you're topping from the bottom then the Dom/me is allowing it.



Are you saying that if it works for the couple, then it's not topping from the bottom at all? 

I'm not sure I agree.  I'll have to think about that one... :)


That's not what I said at all.
I said that if you're topping the Dom/me is allowing it and thus he/she still holds the power.

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 5:49:42 PM   
Nairod


Posts: 12
Joined: 3/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit

A true sub needs NO pain at all.  If the pain is necessary they are a masochist, not a sub.




Wise comments. Off topic, which probably pisses cantilena off, but wise nonetheless.

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 6:11:26 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		When the top feels that they aren't in control, they blame the bottom for the dreaded tftb. I can say to him "don't stop spanking me, ooh it feels so good, ouch" and he can choose to do more or to say "time to go make dinner". It isn't tftb because I can't make him do anything.

It's just information as to where I am and what I want. But if he wants me to be thinking about my delivery, then I'm not going to want any of it or be able to tolerate much at all. Because stuff can come out naturally or I can mind my words, but not both at once.

There are a lot of insecure tops who feel that the bottom asking for anything at all means she's trying to take control. I'm not compatible with them. The Man justs lifts an eyebrow and starts laughing, he knows who is in charge.

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 8:36:27 PM   
zero69u2


Posts: 107
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		Its directing... sometimes its very subtle manipulation to get one's way..

Well  my old master/mistress used to do this or that.. and i want this or that..  (if the top does'nt nip it.. Stop comparing me to your old mistress...) this will continue until you either become their old mistress or you stop the comparisons..

It happens alot when the experience of 2 people vary a great deal.. If submissive A is extremely experienced and Dom B is fairly new.. he may actually need to be topped from the bottom as a way of learning
eventually he/she will get control back and allowing it can be good and bad..








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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/22/2009 9:29:05 PM   
peppermint


Posts: 5169
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline 		Topping from the bottom to me means that the bottom is in charge...or trying to be in charge of what is happening.

If the bottom is the Dominant, then all is perfectly fine.

If the bottom is the submissive, then the submissive is being a brat. 

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