RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (Full Version)

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RealityLicks -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 1:10:59 PM)

It wasn't directed at you.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 1:15:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

It wasn't directed at you.


Ok, sorry.  Consider it retracted from you.

Firm




FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 1:16:59 PM)


Fix your quotes to make your post comprehensible, please.

Firm




RealityLicks -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 1:20:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

So now this is a "if you are not with me, you are against me" situation?
Is it not possible to criticize the IDF and the Israeli government, without being accused of supporting terrorism?


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The really crazy part is that no-one who seriously follows the conflict would consider all Hamas as being "of a piece". The political wing and the military wing are in many senses separate organisms. If nothing else, Hamas has to be considered an extremely broad church, ranging from the cool and pragmatic to the angry and combative. What's more, the US strengthened Hamas considerably by using this monolithic approach and backing Fatah gunmen to attack them.

What appals me is that what took place a few short weeks ago is being ignored in such an inhumane and callous way. Even if israel were justified on self-defence grounds, what earthly purpose - other than brutalising Palestine - is served by mass infanticide?




KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 1:23:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Fix your quotes to make your post comprehensible, please.

Firm



Collarme's quotation system sucks.

The first line is you, then I say "are you trying to be antagonistic" (I'd say so, judging from your continued tone), then its all me until I quote some of my posts that you haven't responded to.




DomKen -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 1:26:10 PM)

What mass infanticide? Really attacks that hit clinics in a combat zone with an enemy well known to use medical facilities as beards for other activities is in no way mass infanticide unless you can show that the intent was to kill babies rather than killing hamas fighters and bomb makers.




Vendaval -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 1:41:47 PM)

Fast Reply -
 
When the quote system does not work for you try changing fonts and colors for the different people being quoted.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 2:01:41 PM)


Q1. Can you accept that the IDF using human shields is wrong?  Yes or no. 

A1. When will you stop beating your wife, huh? 

The use of human shields is generally against my moral code, so if the IDF used human shields, any individual who did so would probably receive my condemnation.

Q2. Can you accept that the IDF bombing over half the medical facilities of Gaza is wrong?  (And we know that they knew where those medical facilities were, the UN told them).

A2.  If medical facilities (or religious facilities) are used for military purposes, then those facilities are no longer protected by the laws of war.  Do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt if the medical facilities under question were not used for any military purpose by Hamas?

In fact, if the medical facilities where used by Hamas for military purposes, and the IDF destroyed them, it is Hamas guilty of war crimes, and not the IDF.

Q3.  Can you accept the high death count within such a short space of time points to a collective punishment of the Palestinians as a people? 

A3. No. I see no evidence of the death count as being "collective punishment" as I think you mean it to be.

Facts not in evidence, and lack of understanding on your part of war and warfare.

Q4. And can you accept that this high death count is counter-productive to any chance for peace between the Palestinians and Israel?

A4.  Any death may be counter-productive to a chance for peace.  Likewise, any death or deaths could lead to peace.  Your question is biased rhetoric based on a position, and not an honest question.

Q5. So you're saying that Amnesty and Human Rights Watch and the UN are all in the business of spreading propaganda for Hamas?

A5.  Some people who are parts of these organizations are "pro-Hamas".  Some are "pro-Israel".  Some are honest, hard-working and idealistic people.  Some are jaded, worn-out sell-outs.

It's the quality of information, the basis on which claims are made, and the reasoning behind those claims that is important.  In other words, I rarely agree with simply taking any report at face value.  This is a common logical fallacy called appeal to authority of which I am acutely aware.  I tend to be very critical (and use critical thinking) on any report, survey, or claims.

Q6. are you actually saying that you see no distinction between a terrorist group and the people of Gaza?

A6. Sure there is a distinction.  However, how important that distinction is, is in question.  Do the majority (or a large minority) of Palestinians support Hamas's goals and methods? 

Should you totally divorce Hamas from the Palestinians?  Does a people have no responsiblity whatsoever for the actions of their freely elected government?

Q7. Are you trying to be antagonistic?

A7. Not really.  I verge on having little respect for you, I admit, but I am actually trying to be pretty forthright with you.  I'm still not sure if you are able to think critically, or if you are wholely immersed in your illusions and emotions, or whether or not you are fully aware of how you present yourself, but hope to rally support for your cause among those who might be deceived.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt so far, as my most likely scenario is that you are an intelligent but inexperienced individual who simply hasn't developed the ability for critical thinking yet. But you could get there one day, with a little patience, perhaps.

Can we get back to my questions, please?

Firm




philosophy -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 2:38:59 PM)

Good response Firm........always nice to see a systematic answer, even if i don't agree with all of it.

As the founding (and quite possibly only) member of the Coalition for Even Handed Pedantry, repost your questions and i'll have a crack at them. [:D]




KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 5:33:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

A6. Sure there is a distinction.  However, how important that distinction is, is in question.  Do the majority (or a large minority) of Palestinians support Hamas's goals and methods? 

Should you totally divorce Hamas from the Palestinians?  Does a people have no responsiblity whatsoever for the actions of their freely elected government?



I'm responding to this, and only this, then you're going on ignore because I've had enough of your condescending attitude.

The implication of your logic here seems to be that the Palestinians are fair game.

Your same logic can be applied to the Israeli government.  The people of Israel are responsible for an elected government that has totally decimated Gaza.  But that doesn't make the Israeli people fair game for attacks.  I totally condemn Hamas for their attacks, and I condemn the IDF for their completely disproportionate attacks and war crime acts.

The peoples of Gaza and Israel shouldn't be punished for the acts of their leaders, even if they did elect them in.  Just like the Americans shouldn't be punished for the acts of Bush.




KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 5:59:11 PM)

How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe
Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

quote:

The only way to make sense of Israel's senseless war in Gaza is through understanding the historical context. Establishing the state of Israel in May 1948 involved a monumental injustice to the Palestinians. British officials bitterly resented American partisanship on behalf of the infant state. On 2 June 1948, Sir John Troutbeck wrote to the foreign secretary, Ernest Bevin, that the Americans were responsible for the creation of a gangster state headed by "an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders". I used to think that this judgment was too harsh but Israel's vicious assault on the people of Gaza, and the Bush administration's complicity in this assault, have reopened the question.

I write as someone who served loyally in the Israeli army in the mid-1960s and who has never questioned the legitimacy of the state of Israel within its pre-1967 borders. What I utterly reject is the Zionist colonial project beyond the Green Line. The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in the aftermath of the June 1967 war had very little to do with security and everything to do with territorial expansionism. The aim was to establish Greater Israel through permanent political, economic and military control over the Palestinian territories. And the result has been one of the most prolonged and brutal military occupations of modern times.

Four decades of Israeli control did incalculable damage to the economy of the Gaza Strip. With a large population of 1948 refugees crammed into a tiny strip of land, with no infrastructure or natural resources, Gaza's prospects were never bright. Gaza, however, is not simply a case of economic under-development but a uniquely cruel case of deliberate de-development. To use the Biblical phrase, Israel turned the people of Gaza into the hewers of wood and the drawers of water, into a source of cheap labour and a captive market for Israeli goods. The development of local industry was actively impeded so as to make it impossible for the Palestinians to end their subordination to Israel and to establish the economic underpinnings essential for real political independence.

Gaza is a classic case of colonial exploitation in the post-colonial era. Jewish settlements in occupied territories are immoral, illegal and an insurmountable obstacle to peace. They are at once the instrument of exploitation and the symbol of the hated occupation. In Gaza, the Jewish settlers numbered only 8,000 in 2005 compared with 1.4 million local residents. Yet the settlers controlled 25% of the territory, 40% of the arable land and the lion's share of the scarce water resources. Cheek by jowl with these foreign intruders, the majority of the local population lived in abject poverty and unimaginable misery. Eighty per cent of them still subsist on less than $2 a day. The living conditions in the strip remain an affront to civilised values, a powerful precipitant to resistance and a fertile breeding ground for political extremism.

In August 2005 a Likud government headed by Ariel Sharon staged a unilateral Israeli pullout from Gaza, withdrawing all 8,000 settlers and destroying the houses and farms they had left behind. Hamas, the Islamic resistance movement, conducted an effective campaign to drive the Israelis out of Gaza. The withdrawal was a humiliation for the Israeli Defence Forces. To the world, Sharon presented the withdrawal from Gaza as a contribution to peace based on a two-state solution. But in the year after, another 12,000 Israelis settled on the West Bank, further reducing the scope for an independent Palestinian state. Land-grabbing and peace-making are simply incompatible. Israel had a choice and it chose land over peace.

The real purpose behind the move was to redraw unilaterally the borders of Greater Israel by incorporating the main settlement blocs on the West Bank to the state of Israel. Withdrawal from Gaza was thus not a prelude to a peace deal with the Palestinian Authority but a prelude to further Zionist expansion on the West Bank. It was a unilateral Israeli move undertaken in what was seen, mistakenly in my view, as an Israeli national interest. Anchored in a fundamental rejection of the Palestinian national identity, the withdrawal from Gaza was part of a long-term effort to deny the Palestinian people any independent political existence on their land.

Israel's settlers were withdrawn but Israeli soldiers continued to control all access to the Gaza Strip by land, sea and air. Gaza was converted overnight into an open-air prison. From this point on, the Israeli air force enjoyed unrestricted freedom to drop bombs, to make sonic booms by flying low and breaking the sound barrier, and to terrorise the hapless inhabitants of this prison.

Israel likes to portray itself as an island of democracy in a sea of authoritarianism. Yet Israel has never in its entire history done anything to promote democracy on the Arab side and has done a great deal to undermine it. Israel has a long history of secret collaboration with reactionary Arab regimes to suppress Palestinian nationalism. Despite all the handicaps, the Palestinian people succeeded in building the only genuine democracy in the Arab world with the possible exception of Lebanon. In January 2006, free and fair elections for the Legislative Council of the Palestinian Authority brought to power a Hamas-led government. Israel, however, refused to recognise the democratically elected government, claiming that Hamas is purely and simply a terrorist organisation.

America and the EU shamelessly joined Israel in ostracising and demonising the Hamas government and in trying to bring it down by withholding tax revenues and foreign aid. A surreal situation thus developed with a significant part of the international community imposing economic sanctions not against the occupier but against the occupied, not against the oppressor but against the oppressed.

As so often in the tragic history of Palestine, the victims were blamed for their own misfortunes. Israel's propaganda machine persistently purveyed the notion that the Palestinians are terrorists, that they reject coexistence with the Jewish state, that their nationalism is little more than antisemitism, that Hamas is just a bunch of religious fanatics and that Islam is incompatible with democracy. But the simple truth is that the Palestinian people are a normal people with normal aspirations. They are no better but they are no worse than any other national group. What they aspire to, above all, is a piece of land to call their own on which to live in freedom and dignity.

Like other radical movements, Hamas began to moderate its political programme following its rise to power. From the ideological rejectionism of its charter, it began to move towards pragmatic accommodation of a two-state solution. In March 2007, Hamas and Fatah formed a national unity government that was ready to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with Israel. Israel, however, refused to negotiate with a government that included Hamas.

It continued to play the old game of divide and rule between rival Palestinian factions. In the late 1980s, Israel had supported the nascent Hamas in order to weaken Fatah, the secular nationalist movement led by Yasser Arafat. Now Israel began to encourage the corrupt and pliant Fatah leaders to overthrow their religious political rivals and recapture power. Aggressive American neoconservatives participated in the sinister plot to instigate a Palestinian civil war. Their meddling was a major factor in the collapse of the national unity government and in driving Hamas to seize power in Gaza in June 2007 to pre-empt a Fatah coup.

The war unleashed by Israel on Gaza on 27 December was the culmination of a series of clashes and confrontations with the Hamas government. In a broader sense, however, it is a war between Israel and the Palestinian people, because the people had elected the party to power. The declared aim of the war is to weaken Hamas and to intensify the pressure until its leaders agree to a new ceasefire on Israel's terms. The undeclared aim is to ensure that the Palestinians in Gaza are seen by the world simply as a humanitarian problem and thus to derail their struggle for independence and statehood.

The timing of the war was determined by political expediency. A general election is scheduled for 10 February and, in the lead-up to the election, all the main contenders are looking for an opportunity to prove their toughness. The army top brass had been champing at the bit to deliver a crushing blow to Hamas in order to remove the stain left on their reputation by the failure of the war against Hezbollah in Lebanon in July 2006. Israel's cynical leaders could also count on apathy and impotence of the pro-western Arab regimes and on blind support from President Bush in the twilight of his term in the White House. Bush readily obliged by putting all the blame for the crisis on Hamas, vetoing proposals at the UN Security Council for an immediate ceasefire and issuing Israel with a free pass to mount a ground invasion of Gaza.

As always, mighty Israel claims to be the victim of Palestinian aggression but the sheer asymmetry of power between the two sides leaves little room for doubt as to who is the real victim. This is indeed a conflict between David and Goliath but the Biblical image has been inverted - a small and defenceless Palestinian David faces a heavily armed, merciless and overbearing Israeli Goliath. The resort to brute military force is accompanied, as always, by the shrill rhetoric of victimhood and a farrago of self-pity overlaid with self-righteousness. In Hebrew this is known as the syndrome of bokhim ve-yorim, "crying and shooting".

To be sure, Hamas is not an entirely innocent party in this conflict. Denied the fruit of its electoral victory and confronted with an unscrupulous adversary, it has resorted to the weapon of the weak - terror. Militants from Hamas and Islamic Jihad kept launching Qassam rocket attacks against Israeli settlements near the border with Gaza until Egypt brokered a six-month ceasefire last June. The damage caused by these primitive rockets is minimal but the psychological impact is immense, prompting the public to demand protection from its government. Under the circumstances, Israel had the right to act in self-defence but its response to the pinpricks of rocket attacks was totally disproportionate. The figures speak for themselves. In the three years after the withdrawal from Gaza, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire. On the other hand, in 2005-7 alone, the IDF killed 1,290 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children.

Whatever the numbers, killing civilians is wrong. This rule applies to Israel as much as it does to Hamas, but Israel's entire record is one of unbridled and unremitting brutality towards the inhabitants of Gaza. Israel also maintained the blockade of Gaza after the ceasefire came into force which, in the view of the Hamas leaders, amounted to a violation of the agreement. During the ceasefire, Israel prevented any exports from leaving the strip in clear violation of a 2005 accord, leading to a sharp drop in employment opportunities. Officially, 49.1% of the population is unemployed. At the same time, Israel restricted drastically the number of trucks carrying food, fuel, cooking-gas canisters, spare parts for water and sanitation plants, and medical supplies to Gaza. It is difficult to see how starving and freezing the civilians of Gaza could protect the people on the Israeli side of the border. But even if it did, it would still be immoral, a form of collective punishment that is strictly forbidden by international humanitarian law.

The brutality of Israel's soldiers is fully matched by the mendacity of its spokesmen. Eight months before launching the current war on Gaza, Israel established a National Information Directorate. The core messages of this directorate to the media are that Hamas broke the ceasefire agreements; that Israel's objective is the defence of its population; and that Israel's forces are taking the utmost care not to hurt innocent civilians. Israel's spin doctors have been remarkably successful in getting this message across. But, in essence, their propaganda is a pack of lies.

A wide gap separates the reality of Israel's actions from the rhetoric of its spokesmen. It was not Hamas but the IDF that broke the ceasefire. It di d so by a raid into Gaza on 4 November that killed six Hamas men. Israel's objective is not just the defence of its population but the eventual overthrow of the Hamas government in Gaza by turning the people against their rulers. And far from taking care to spare civilians, Israel is guilty of indiscriminate bombing and of a three-year-old blockade that has brought the inhabitants of Gaza, now 1.5 million, to the brink of a humanitarian catastrophe.

The Biblical injunction of an eye for an eye is savage enough. But Israel's insane offensive against Gaza seems to follow the logic of an eye for an eyelash. After eight days of bombing, with a death toll of more than 400 Palestinians and four Israelis, the gung-ho cabinet ordered a land invasion of Gaza the consequences of which are incalculable.

No amount of military escalation can buy Israel immunity from rocket attacks from the military wing of Hamas. Despite all the death and destruction that Israel has inflicted on them, they kept up their resistance and they kept firing their rockets. This is a movement that glorifies victimhood and martyrdom. There is simply no military solution to the conflict between the two communities. The problem with Israel's concept of security is that it denies even the most elementary security to the other community. The only way for Israel to achieve security is not through shooting but through talks with Hamas, which has repeatedly declared its readiness to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with the Jewish state within its pre-1967 borders for 20, 30, or even 50 years. Israel has rejected this offer for the same reason it spurned the Arab League peace plan of 2002, which is still on the table: it involves concessions and compromises.

This brief review of Israel's record over the past four decades makes it difficult to resist the conclusion that it has become a rogue state with "an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders". A rogue state habitually violates international law, possesses weapons of mass destruction and practises terrorism - the use of violence against civilians for political purposes. Israel fulfils all of these three criteria; the cap fits and it must wear it. Israel's real aim is not peaceful coexistence with its Palestinian neighbours but military domination. It keeps compounding the mistakes of the past with new and more disastrous ones. Politicians, like everyone else, are of course free to repeat the lies and mistakes of the past. But it is not mandatory to do so.

• Avi Shlaim is a professor of international relations at the University of Oxford and the author of The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World and of Lion of Jordan: King Hussein's Life in War and Peace.




KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 6:20:49 PM)

Okay, a few more comments addressing Firmhand.  I'm keeping this respectful.

The use of human shields is generally against my moral code, so if the IDF used human shields, any individual who did so would probably receive my condemnation.
 
Why the probably?  Your answer would be one I could respect if not for the word 'probably'.

A2.  If medical facilities (or religious facilities) are used for military purposes, then those facilities are no longer protected by the laws of war.  Do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt if the medical facilities under question were not used for any military purpose by Hamas?

Surely the onus of proof would be on the IDF to prove those facilities were being used by Hamas?

A3. No. I see no evidence of the death count as being "collective punishment" as I think you mean it to be.

Facts not in evidence, and lack of understanding on your part of war and warfare.

 
UN investigator Richard Falk and professor of international relations Avi Shlaim would disagree.

A4.  Any death may be counter-productive to a chance for peace.  Likewise, any death or deaths could lead to peace.  Your question is biased rhetoric based on a position, and not an honest question.
 
How could the deaths of over 1, 400 palestinians this year lead to peace?

A5.  Some people who are parts of these organizations are "pro-Hamas".  Some are "pro-Israel".  Some are honest, hard-working and idealistic people.  Some are jaded, worn-out sell-outs.

Do you have any evidence that any members of the UN, Amnesty international, and Human Rights Watch are "pro-hamas"?  Although, your definition of who is pro-hamas is pretty thin.

It's the quality of information, the basis on which claims are made, and the reasoning behind those claims that is important.  In other words, I rarely agree with simply taking any report at face value.  This is a common logical fallacy called appeal to authority of which I am acutely aware.  I tend to be very critical (and use critical thinking) on any report, survey, or claims.
 
I don't think you're as critical as you think you are.  Most of your posts are layered with your bias and you were very quick to label me as pro-Hamas.  You tend to be critical of reports that go against your opinion, while not fully addressing the funamental points of those reports.




KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 6:41:26 PM)

I'll attempt to answer Firmhand's questions.
 
1.  How many people must be killed to qualify as "genocide"?
 
Augusto Pinochet killed 3, 000 in 1973 and that was considered genocide.

Over 1, 400 within a few weeks seems like a big, round figure.


2.  If Israel is "at least partially responsible" for the failure of the ceasefire, does this make Hamas "mostly largely responsible" for the failure of the ceasefire?

In March 2007, Hamas and Fatah formed a national unity government that was ready to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with Israel. Israel, however, refused to negotiate with a government that included Hamas.

3. Is Hamas the legally elected government and representatives of the Palestinian people, at least in Gaza, where the Israeli military actions occured?

Yes, they are.  They are legally elected, but at the same time Israel refuses to negotiate with them.  Funny that.

4.  Has Hamas taken any actions to attempt to consummate their charter's call for the genocide of the Jews of Israel?

After their rise to power, Hamas moved towards a pragmatic accomodation of a two-state solution.

5. If you don't "support" the Palestinian people, and their legally elected government ... then what would you consider "support" to mean?  What is it you call your position?  Lack of support?  Equal condemnation of both sides?

I support the people of Gaza, I do not support Hamas.  I support the people of Israel, I do not support their government or the IDF.

It's like America under the Bush years.  Hated Bush.  Didn't mean I hated Americans.

6.  Why do you take a position that Israel is more worthy of condemation for "genocide" than Hamas?

Because of how many people the IDF killed this year.

I won't be made out to be an unreasonable person that can't be debated with.  I won't be labelled a terrorist supporter.  I hope you better understand my position, and I hope you find the time for better introspection so you can come into debates in a more respectful manner, instead of trying to push buttons.  Thankyou.




Politesub53 -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 6:47:42 PM)

I think its ludicrous to suggest that if you are critical of the recent IDF actions, then you support Hamas.




DomKen -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 10:54:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I think its ludicrous to suggest that if you are critical of the recent IDF actions, then you support Hamas.

Has anyone in this thread made that claim?




DomKen -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/27/2009 10:58:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD
In March 2007, Hamas and Fatah formed a national unity government that was ready to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with Israel.

Would you care to explain why any rational person would think that was true after better than a decade of negotiated settlements with the palestinian leadership which the palestinians never honored even the most trivial parts of?

quote:

Yes, they are.  They are legally elected, but at the same time Israel refuses to negotiate with them.  Funny that.

Hamas, as the entity in charge of Gaza, is not the legally elected government of anything. They violently expelled the legal government in June 2007 because they didn't like sharing power as dictated by the laws of the PA.




KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/28/2009 5:41:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I think its ludicrous to suggest that if you are critical of the recent IDF actions, then you support Hamas.

Has anyone in this thread made that claim?


Yes.  You, and Firmhand.  On what other basis do you have to suggest that I support Hamas?




KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/28/2009 5:42:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD
In March 2007, Hamas and Fatah formed a national unity government that was ready to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with Israel.

Would you care to explain why any rational person would think that was true after better than a decade of negotiated settlements with the palestinian leadership which the palestinians never honored even the most trivial parts of?

quote:

Yes, they are.  They are legally elected, but at the same time Israel refuses to negotiate with them.  Funny that.

Hamas, as the entity in charge of Gaza, is not the legally elected government of anything. They violently expelled the legal government in June 2007 because they didn't like sharing power as dictated by the laws of the PA.


Read the link I posted a few posts above.




DomKen -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/28/2009 6:56:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I think its ludicrous to suggest that if you are critical of the recent IDF actions, then you support Hamas.

Has anyone in this thread made that claim?


Yes.  You, and Firmhand.  On what other basis do you have to suggest that I support Hamas?

No.  Firm and I have based our opinions on you on the fact that you credulously accepted the Hamas position on every issue so far covered.




DomKen -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/28/2009 6:57:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD
In March 2007, Hamas and Fatah formed a national unity government that was ready to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with Israel.

Would you care to explain why any rational person would think that was true after better than a decade of negotiated settlements with the palestinian leadership which the palestinians never honored even the most trivial parts of?

quote:

Yes, they are.  They are legally elected, but at the same time Israel refuses to negotiate with them.  Funny that.

Hamas, as the entity in charge of Gaza, is not the legally elected government of anything. They violently expelled the legal government in June 2007 because they didn't like sharing power as dictated by the laws of the PA.


Read the link I posted a few posts above.

Which link and as answer to which statement? Please be clear.




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