RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/31/2009 4:49:10 AM)

quote:

Lets not get into Roman mathematical terminology and the concept of belief in the same sentence, eh? I mean ... what did the Romans ever do for us?


Nothing lasts for ever



UPSG -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (4/4/2009 11:56:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: piratecommander

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
And I often see Jewish people in the United States that I can not distinguish from Anglo-Saxons.

Is this a religious or a racial stereotype you are employing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
Some of you on this site belittle and make fun of reading but developing "a life of reading" has greatly broadened my horizons.

Good for you, I'm a Celt (read up on that before you comment) your life of reading (books,you say) may be pleasing to you,it does not appear to me to have done much broadening,it appears to have narrowed your horizons.(see below) immensely

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
That said, it all depends on what you read also

Does ink count? (as in peoples skin). Do rock carvings and cave paintings count,or is all of history interpreted by faith? (as you postulate)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
History is more art than science. For example: Europe never existed.

Funny you mention this, I agree. The USA never existed either and those are non artistic FACTS, I am most intrigued as to your opinion on that subject

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
My point is, some things we believe 100% historical fact, don't always seem to connect all the dots so to speak.

Lets not get into Roman mathematical terminology and the concept of belief in the same sentence, eh? I mean ... what did the Romans ever do for us?

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
phenotype

I'm feeling excluded here ... why haven't I been allocated a phenotype yet?

Pirate

(still not sure how this is related to the war crimes and ethnic cleansing in Gaza just now,perhaps it's because cleansing sounds nicer and easier to avoid than genocide.)

(I promise not to dissect the "troubles" related stuff thats being posted on this thread,after all,Ireland's is not only off topic,it's a truly bad example,the Brits have somewhere to go for a start)





Pirate I don't know what you're points are.

Anglo Saxons are not generally thought to have the same phenotype (if you have a problem with that term take it up with science) as Middle Eastern peoples. The latter are generally thought to be more swarthy in complexion and hair - e.g. refer to the Popular Mechanics article on what Jesus would have looked like.

I really don't care if you are a Celt or what your problem is in accepting the fact that during the early Middle-Ages (and before) your people were a less advanced and cultured society than those of Asia (which I'm referring to the Middle East also).

The Romans and Greeks - which your people were no more Italian, Greek, or Mediterranean than Black-Americans were Egyptians and North and or East Africans - are not the only one's to contribute to world history.

And it was the Romans who referred to your ancestors - and my Germanic ancestors - as barbarians. I did not invent that term. I was simply pointing out the contradiction in modern legends that infer an "Age of Light" existed in "Europe" prior to the barbarians sacking Rome. Yeah, yeah... the Romans built roads and fuckin wall in Britain, I guess that make contemporary Haiti light years of ahead of everyone on earth. I know... the Romans built public baths where the water moved at a trickle pace. [8|] Thank God modern swimming pools (not baths where people wash) use chlorine.

While I'm being sarcastic I do realize ancient Rome had many marvelous achievements. Nonetheless, worlds outside of Rome had their own fantastic stories, from India to Cambodia.

Eastern Christians also preserved knowledge of Roman, Greek, and Persian heritage and translated much of that for Arab rulers, who in turn returned much of that ancient learning back toward Western Europe.

Philip Jenkins who gained his doctorate in history from Cambridge University and teaches at Penn State University (both well regarded institutes of higher learning) says this in his book The Lost History of Christianity.

p.77
quote:

It was at Nisibis that much of the ancient world's learning was kept alive and translated, making it available for later generations of Muslim scholars, and for Europeans after them. Among other classical works, Nisibis preserved the writings of Aristotle and his commentators. In 1026, Nisibis was the scene of a famous debate between the Nestorian bishop Elijah and a Muslim vizier. Arguning for the superiority of Syriac over Arabic, the bishop made the seeminlgy incontestable claim that Arabs had learned most of their science from Syriac sources, while the reverse had seldom occurred.


History is more art than science. Anyone that reads a lot of history comes to learn this because not only are there several different interpretations to an event, but what we think we know as "facts" are often not facts at all. Take "Arabic numerals." The West received what it calls Arabic numerals from the Islam East, and replaced the more cumbersome Roman numerals with it. The actual fact in this matter appears to be, that the Muslim Arabs recieved these numerals from the Hindus of India.

So are they "Arab numerals" or "Indian numerals" or is the "truth" somewhere in between?

Philip Jenkins appears to be a secular scholar - he certainly is not pro-Roman Catholic. He points at that almost everything the contemporary public thinks they know about Christian history is false, half-facts, or just outright myths. But I have to say, lots of history in general is like this.

In the West Ireland is often regarded as the great hearth of Christian monasticism. However, Christian monasticism originated in Africa (Egypt) - e.g. St. Anthony and St. Moses the Black - and the near East and Asia produced strong monastic centers as well. Christian monastaries neighbored Buddhist monasteries in Afghanistan and Christian monks helped Buddhist monks in Asia translated their sacred Buddhist texts into Chinese.

All world history did not happen in Rome and Greece - and it sure as hell didn't all happen in Ireland.



piratecommander -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (4/4/2009 1:43:15 PM)

Maybe it's not worth even making this post,you seem obsessed with Christianity and race issues that have absolutely bugger all to do with the topic of this thread and no matter what science you want to hide behind you can't disguise that.

Perhaps you would be better off starting threads about the things you want to rant about?

By the way, you clearly did not read up on anything to do with Celts before you spat your racist venom again so I'm presuming you have made most of it up to disguise your lack of knowlege thinking that you can get away with it.

Celts are often known to be stubborn (in a sexy way of course), here's an example of one being just that right now ... why don't you post something about Gaza and the emerging facts or your opinions/arguments regarding that posted by others?

I think my point is clear, you are jacking the thread.

I can't imagine how to make my "points" and plainer.

Pirate (country of birth as yet undisclosed here)



UPSG -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (4/4/2009 6:08:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: piratecommander

Maybe it's not worth even making this post,you seem obsessed with Christianity and race issues that have absolutely bugger all to do with the topic of this thread and no matter what science you want to hide behind you can't disguise that.


The issue of ethnicity and who is or is not indigenous to the Palestine region absolutely has something to do with the current conflict between Palestinians and Jews.

I don't know what world you live in but since at least the 1500's most of the earth land mass has been subdued by white colonial forces, and hierarchy of race and or ethnicity became part of the colonial social fabric. This has only recently changed over the last few decades (not centuries). If you don't comprehend this then you need to go read some military history or please just shut the f*ck up about what you don't understand.

Much of the U.S. social fabric was dictated by race not more than roughly 6 or so years before my birth, remnants of those things do not just vanish overnight.

quote:


Perhaps you would be better off starting threads about the things you want to rant about?

By the way, you clearly did not read up on anything to do with Celts before you spat your racist venom again so I'm presuming you have made most of it up to disguise your lack of knowlege thinking that you can get away with it.


First off, you don't have any idea what racism is other than to yap your mouth about an overused word in the English language - like love. That I bring up the history of European cultural advancements in comparison to the larger parts of Asia or the Middle East, during what we refer to as the "Middle Ages," does not make me racist.

For me to be racist I would have to have some sort of socio-political power over you and your fellow European Celts. I would at minimum, have to be part of the status quo system that can work to project power over you and or others of your racial or ethnic make up.

Secondly, I have no problem with Celtic people, and the Irish in particular - I know to have a history that parallels the Black-American experience in many respects.

And by the way, I probably no more on the history Ireland than many Irish living in Ireland. Admittedly, I've never read anything specifically on Scotland or the Welsh, but the Irish were more my interest at the time. In fact I bet I know more about "your people" than you do about mine. (I think I recall you stating you were Irish but I might be wrong - if you're Scots-Irish or a Scot living in Scotland than your hostility is understandable, given some of the serial killing butchery of Protestants terrorist gangs in Northern Ireland and the Celtic [namely Scottish] heritage to the KKK in the United States)

quote:


Celts are often known to be stubborn (in a sexy way of course), here's an example of one being just that right now ... why don't you post something about Gaza and the emerging facts or your opinions/arguments regarding that posted by others?

I think my point is clear, you are jacking the thread.

I can't imagine how to make my "points" and plainer.

Pirate (country of birth as yet undisclosed here)



I already made clear in this thread I don't like Israeli tactics. I don't see them as much different than the U.S. Government that moved Amerindians onto reservations.

And my points about European Jews originally was in response to another poster stating they (European Jews) are the original inhabitants of the ancient Palestine region and not the Arab Palestinians. (actually, I'm told there is an Israeli professor [Jewish] who has published a book, not yet released here in the U.S., asserting that not only are the Palestinians the descendants of the ancient Hebrews, but almost everything we think we know about Jewish past is false)





piratecommander -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (4/5/2009 10:52:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
First off, you don't have any idea what racism is other than to yap your mouth about an overused word in the English language.

You are wrong (in any English dialect or cant)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
For me to be racist I would have to have some sort of socio-political power over you and your fellow European Celts. I would at minimum, have to be part of the status quo system that can work to project power over you and or others of your racial or ethnic make up.

You are wrong (ps ... Europe ? you said it never existed and I agreed with that,yet you insist on using it to label me!)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
I probably know more on the history Ireland than many Irish living in Ireland
.
You might be wrong,define many.(ps typo fixed)
What about Irish NOT living in Ireland ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
In fact I bet I know more about "your people" than you do about mine. ... but I might be wrong

You are wrong ...you have made a few stupid comments but that takes the piss ... you know not even where nor into which tribe I was born, let alone who I would identify as being my people as you put it.

I never claimed to know about your "people",perhaps you might clarify what you mean by that as it seems you might be implying race again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
killing butchery of Protestants terrorist gangs

A shot in the dark,you have one word wrong and it's not "of" in the context of your words

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
I already made clear in this thread I don't like Israeli tactics.

You might be wrong,have another go?

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
... but I might be wrong

You are right

Pirate




Vendaval -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (4/5/2009 11:30:54 AM)

Very well stated, Pirate. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: piratecommander
Maybe it's not worth even making this post,you seem obsessed with Christianity and race issues that have absolutely bugger all to do with the topic of this thread and no matter what science you want to hide behind you can't disguise that.

Perhaps you would be better off starting threads about the things you want to rant about?

By the way, you clearly did not read up on anything to do with Celts before you spat your racist venom again so I'm presuming you have made most of it up to disguise your lack of knowlege thinking that you can get away with it.

Celts are often known to be stubborn (in a sexy way of course), here's an example of one being just that right now ... why don't you post something about Gaza and the emerging facts or your opinions/arguments regarding that posted by others?



UPSG -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (4/6/2009 12:08:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: piratecommander
You are wrong (ps ... Europe ? you said it never existed and I agreed with that,yet you insist on using it to label me!


Why all the hostility, pirate, been hanging out with the KKK in Europe appealing to "Celtic pride" among the Scots and Welsh?

My surname on my Black-American side is either Scottish or Welsh according to my brother who did research into our surname while he was in college. I realize comprehending how that correlates to power inherent in structures of racism (or sexism as regards women taking the surname of their husbands) will be beyond your current academic abilities.

My Germanic side traces in two different directions, one into Hungry (which had a history of invasion by the Mongols) and into Trier, Germany (which had a history of being a settlement of the ancient Romans). On my German line that traces to Trier our surname is Roman - very Roman.

Often times surnames carry a history - more often with a continuity and tale greater than first names or what a certain few in academia might refer to as "pre-name" (to distinguish from your "real name" which some regard as your surname).

Whether in Europe - which exists - or in the United States, I as defined as a "Black-American male" have never held a socio-polotical power, or have been able to project a power, drawing upon a cultural history, to oppress you or any other Celtic person. (at this point you might want to refer to one of the all time great film classics and propaganda films: "Birth of a Nation").

Europe exists today, however, it did not exist in ancient times nor any time soon after what is referred to as the fall of Rome. The United States exists today, however, it did not exist in the year 1400. [8|]

I realize that often times hostile white males that have underlying racist attitudes, sometimes, but not always, are what we might charitably refer to as intellectually challenged. I know you have anger against people deemed "racial minorities" because I've been "around the block" a few times, and I can tell in the tone. Claiming I've spewed racist venom against Celtic people because I point out a glaring contradiction in the popular historoical tale of the West (e.g. "Barbarians" sack Rome and "Dark Ages" come about) is the result of an enraged white male that sees the old order of things slipping by, and who feels a lack of confident in his own intellectual ability to meet a growing educated female and "racial minoritity" population in discussion and questions that draw upon critical thought, without hostility.

Now, if I had said some horrible things about Celtic peoples I might agree with you that I would be asserting racist propaganda. However, I never have. In fact I rather admire the Irish people in particular on a number of levels (e.g. I've placed up a "Black and Tan" youtube song in the St. Patriicks Day thread before).

But what you fail to realize - as do many people in this world - what is referred to as "tribal" level society, every corner of this earth once had some human population living in. It is neither unique to Amerindian history or to Celtic history. So far as we know right now, it would appear what we refer to as "civilization" began in the Fertile Crescent region. Today Western Europe dominates in social and scientific advancements over much of the Middle East annd Asia. What I am saying - and have been saying - is that that was not always so of the region we know refer to as Europe or Western Europe during the early Middle Ages period. That is not racist. That is just historical fact.

Now, go be angry all you want.





P.S. Skirts were worn not just by the Celtic peoples (which I remember you seemed to think they were - though I admit Scots have a strong cultural heritage relating to the "kilt") but by basically all men in the region of Europe at one time. The Western world adopted trousers from the nomadic tribes of the East (e.g. Scythians). I learned that reading up on military history and Western military history. There were a number of things Western people adopted from the nomads of the East that we might think of as a European creation.




slvemike4u -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (4/6/2009 12:16:34 PM)

Wow...scratching my head here,trying to remember when last such an example of arrogance graced these threads...coming up blank.Wondering how many,besides yourself,are as impressed with your wealth of 'knowledge"



Politesub53 -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (4/6/2009 4:05:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Wow...scratching my head here,trying to remember when last such an example of arrogance graced these threads...coming up blank.Wondering how many,besides yourself,are as impressed with your wealth of 'knowledge"


Indeed Mike.



slvemike4u -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (4/6/2009 4:08:25 PM)

So it's not just me?



Politesub53 -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (4/6/2009 4:15:10 PM)

I doubt its just us either.



slvemike4u -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (4/6/2009 4:16:35 PM)

Yeah I would think even those of the same ideological bent cringe when reading some of his post's.



piratecommander -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (4/10/2009 2:45:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG

quote:

ORIGINAL: piratecommander
You are wrong (ps ... Europe ? you said it never existed and I agreed with that,yet you insist on using it to label me!


You KEEP doing this Europe thing ... I think I got it clear

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
Why all the hostility, pirate, been hanging out with the KKK in Europe appealing to "Celtic pride" among the Scots and Welsh?


Hostility? ... If I was engaging in hostility you would know about that for sure, you have my word.

Your answer: No ...
And what the living fuck in life is WRONG with being proud of ones heritage?

There's KKK in Europe? (I know what KKK is thanks to the contributors on this site in earlier threads),said "Klan" has got nothing whatever to do with Europe,if you are inferring racist type groups, there's far worse than the KKK,trust me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
I realize comprehending how that correlates to power inherent in structures of racism (or sexism as regards women taking the surname of their husbands) will be beyond your current academic abilities.

So ... I'm too thick to know if I'm a racist?, Or if you are? ... I suspect you "might be wrong"
My current academic abilities tell me that you have some very deep rooted "issues" (as they say in the US) and that you have limited experience in terms of range and scope when it comes to racism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
My Germanic side traces in two different directions, one into Hungary (which had a history of invasion by the Mongols) and into Trier, Germany (which had a history of being a settlement of the ancient Romans). On my German line that traces to Trier our surname is Roman - very Roman.


Ever had a DNA test to verify your "line"? ........................

Oh shit,you mean I might be related to you? !!! (Hogy mondjak ezt magyarul?) also:Typo fixed.
Please tell me you're Roman ... I can understand all of the way you are if you tell me you're Roman,I understand it may be a dilemma for you with your interest in bloodline and all, but for me it explains everything,I mean,what did the Romans ever do for us?
(ps ... you meant Mongols and Turks ... surely?)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
I as defined as a "Black-American male" have never held a socio-polotical power, or have been able to project a power, drawing upon a cultural history, to oppress you or any other Celtic person.


You keep doing that Europe thing ...
I don't recall indicating that I felt in anyway oppressed by your bigotry (and trust me I know about being oppressed) 
And your feelings on those who tell people they're "White American" are? ...
What country in America are you from originally?

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
I realize that often times hostile white males that have underlying racist attitudes, sometimes, but not always, are what we might charitably refer to as intellectually challenged. I know you have anger against people deemed "racial minorities" because I've been "around the block" a few times, and I can tell in the tone. Claiming I've spewed racist venom against Celtic people because I point out a glaring contradiction in the popular historical tale of the West (e.g. "Barbarians" sack Rome and "Dark Ages" come about) is the result of an enraged white male that sees the old order of things slipping by, and who feels a lack of confidence in his own intellectual ability to meet a growing educated female and "racial minoritity" population in discussion and questions that draw upon critical thought, without hostility.


Typo's fixed for you, let me know if thats an intellectually challenged error on my part?

You say you know I have anger against racial minorities (which I have not "deemed") please tell me how to distinguish a "racial minority" ? (then I can decide if I'm angry against it)

You use the phrase "hostile white males", I can be very hostile,am white as well as male, I resent the suggestion that I would have a racist attitude in any hostility.My hostility should have no such boundaries in my opinion

Are you saying you think there are no hostile white females with underlying racist attitudes? or did I spot a degree of gender bias?

And check your facts ... I did not say you spew racist venom only against the Celts ... ... ...


quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
Now, if I had said some horrible things about Celtic peoples I might agree with you that I would be asserting racist propaganda. However, I never have. In fact I rather admire the Irish people in particular on a number of levels (e.g. I've placed up a "Black and Tan" youtube song in the St. Patriicks Day thread before)
.

Not all Celtic peoples are Irish,I thought you'd have known that with all your "academic" prowess.

Which song about "Black and Tan" ?(I suspect it's the IRA one rather than the drinking song) and if it's the one I think it is, I have a copy.I'm sure I would find it very enlightening to know what you admire so much about that particular song.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
what we refer to as "civilization" began in the Fertile Crescent region.


I don't recall having claimed to be "civilized" , again you insult me.I would be appalled to be associated with what so many have suffered at the hands of the "civilized" (ref: various US presidential speeches)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
Now, go be angry all you want.

I'll take you up on that but I'm wasting no anger on you.


quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG
P.S. Skirts were worn not just by the Celtic peoples (which I remember you seemed to think they were - though I admit Scots have a strong cultural heritage relating to the "kilt") but by basically all men in the region of Europe at one time. The Western world adopted trousers from the nomadic tribes of the East (e.g. Scythians). I learned that reading up on military history and Western military history. There were a number of things Western people adopted from the nomads of the East that we might think of as a European creation.


(You keep doing this Europe thing ... clearly you have an issue with it that's bugger all to do with me)

I never met a Celt (or an Irish,Scots or Welshman) in my life (and thats plenty) who wore a skirt (well ... ok ... not in the way YOU meant [:D]), your studies and your memory are both flawed,next thing you'll be telling us all about tartan and expecting us to listen. Your ignorance is exposed,you'd be laughed out of the pub talking this rubbish.

Oh, and I think trousers are a stupid invention (wherever they came from), I think we should take a vote on that from the female audience [sm=evil.gif]

(By the way,there are some Celts in England too and we're not talking royalty,who wear the kilt)

And for my next stunt ... I shall repeat my earlier observation ... :

Celts are often known to be stubborn (in a sexy way of course), here's an example of one being just that right now ... why don't you post something about Gaza and the emerging facts or your opinions/arguments regarding that posted by others?

Pirate






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