RE: Gaza - the facts emerge

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BadJezebel -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/23/2009 9:37:13 PM)
well said

Kirata -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/23/2009 9:48:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY I find myself utterly flummoxed that DomKen and I are on the same side in this topic. Hell musta frozen over sometime today. I had exactly the same thought. Scary, ain't it? K.

RealityLicks -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 2:57:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen So some bad stuff happened. Does Hamas launch rockets and mortars from civilian areas? Does Hamas wear uniforms and present seperate targets from the civilians in Gaza? In short is there any possible response to Hamas' attacks against the Israeli civilian population that would not have resulted in these incidents? If Hamas chooses to hide amongst civilians does that mean Israel should simply capitulate and wade into the Med until they all drown? These videos are not about Hamas, so the debate should not be about them either. Neither should it be necessary for anyone taking part in it to have to pay the customary lip service to their iniquities. These videos are about the actions of the IDF. It's senseless to excuse the IDF for something for which you excoriate their opponents - so either you condone the use of human shields or you do not. The videos present evidence of the IDF using human shields. The official IDF line is that this never happens; yet here is the proof. This is not the first conflict in which guerrilla tactics have been used. If you are looking for ways to respond, the time-honoured way is to win over hearts and minds, so that the civilian population gives up the gunmen in their midst. (Ulster, Iraq). I'd suggest strapping an infant to an APC is not going to win many Palestinians over. I've yet to see evidence of Hamas doing anything similar. But then, as you shrugged it off; "so some bad stuff happened."

StrangerThan -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 5:19:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Semantics. You call it guerilla warfare I call it hiding behind civilians. My answer is at least in English. If you don't understand what guerilla warfare is, that's not my problem. Back here in the real world, the IDF were caught on video dragging a kid door to door, using him as a human shield. In another case, the link for it is on page 1, the IDF used an 11 year old boy to walk in front of soldiers being fired on. THAT is using human shields. Can you explain that to me? quote: I saw video of medical personel in a combat zone. I saw nothing indicative that they were intentional targets. The fact that they weren't killed seems telling considering they were out in the open when the shooting started. Beyond that I saw claims without presented evidence. Are you sure you watched the video? One of them got hit in the leg, as they were trying to carry a wounded person. By your definition, the only side capable of conducting warfare would be guerillas. The other side would be limited to two roles, one being that of policing a hostile population, the second being a target. Hamas was popularly elected and enjoys popular support in a country that was essentially created for them. Yeah I know, we can go debate the formation of the state of Israel all day long but truth is, that land is as ancestral to them as any muslim. DomKen asked the question I wanted to ask. I'm not sure more than one or two actually understood it though, and those who did seem to conveniently overlook it. The one thing I will say is that Israel has evidenced a hell of a lot more patience than I would have in the last few years. I was never a zealot in the support of Israel, but I kind of see it this way. If I cede the fact that you have a right to your own home and pull back the stakes that mark out the land I've claimed to give you room to do so, then someone in your house starts taking potshots out the window at my family. Yeah, we're going to talk. If you have no interest in resolving that problem, then I have no issue coming in your house and wasting enough people to resolve some, if not all of the problem. The resolution to this problem is simple. It is only complex when one refuses to have peace in the first place.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 5:42:07 AM)
I have no idea why we support Israel, and that doesn't mean I support Hamas either. Both seem to be acting in equally barbaric manners, the offense to me anyway, is that Israel, tries to portray itself as "civilized" and "honorable" in these encounters. There is absolutely no justification, to rocket an actively function medical facility, filled with infants, injured, and medical staff. Sorry, that makes you piece of shit to do so. If in fact the Israeli Military targeted half of all hospitals, then they are no better than any other terrorist state, as that could not possibly be an accident. So, the Israel military is functioning on the same set of rules as terrorists if they indeed are targeting hospitals. It doesn't matter if terrorist hole up in there either, you can not justify killing a hundred innocents to kill a couple enemies, that makes you shit. Simple as that. Nothing new here, religious nut terrorists(Israel hospital bombing military) killing religious nut terrorist(terrorists using civilian facilities for protection, without consideration of the possible consequence), and moderates getting killed en mass. Isn't that the world we live in.

RealityLicks -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 5:54:48 AM)
Sigh. Not again. Over 90% of the people in Gaza have been forced to live there as refugees from other parts of Palestine, their homes now occupied by Israelis. So your analogy of someone shooting at you from their "house" would work better if you called it a prison. Even those who abide by the law and try to peacefully to make a living by farming are penalised by the IDF's blockades. Its routine for trucks of Palestinian produce to be held up for so long that the goods rot inside them. I'd argue that this relatively low-level oppression does much to create radicals and fighters as it removes any hope from entire generations. So again your analogy is faulty, as it assumes that there exists no legitimate ongoing grievance, when of course there are many. I still see no real justification for the excesses of operation cast lead among the IDF apologists. Just another tired retread of how awful Hamas are. Hamas feel just as aggrieved as Israel - that's the point. Either you are for the rule of law or you are against it; either for the use of human shields, or against it.

RealityLicks -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 6:03:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou Isn't that the world we live in. I'd strongly challenge the notion that this is a religious conflict. I think religion characterises the rhetoric used on both sides but basically this is a land dispute. The Palestinians have been driven off the best land and have insufficient water rights. They've lost hereditary rights and are effectively prevented from entering into commerce that could alleviate their dependence on aid. The anti-Muslim sentiment is played on as part of the propaganda war but its not central to the real issues.

StrangerThan -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 6:14:14 AM)
And I'll say sigh, not again as well. The bottom line for any of this to work is that both sides have to take responsibility for their actions and actually attempt to at least get along. Doesn't mean they have to like each other, hug each other or even be able to tolerate each other. It also means that those honest folk whose produce is rotting at the checkpoints need to realize that the checkpoints exist not because they're muslim but because some in their own camp will use those very same routes to kill those on the other side of the checkpoint. I know you're not an idiot. So don't act like one. On going grievances will exist in this part of the world as long as people inhabit it. But hell fire, running around shooting home made rockets across the border, supporting terrorist organizations, electing a government that IS a terrorist organization does absolutely nothing for the honest and peaceful people on either side. What you really want is Israel to simply capitulate or simply be targets. I'm not a zionist flag waver and I'm not retreading anything. Hamas would do a hell of a lot more for their own people if they policed the terrorists, made some kind of effort to actually join a community of nations rather than trying to figure out a way to destroy their neighbor. And the idiotic thing about it is the neighbor possesess the ability to annihilate them. Bomb squads slip across the border, others run back and forth to the border with their home made rockets and go home gleeful when they manage to kill someone, the government espouses a death wish for the state next to them... and when the neighbor invades, they go running to people like you whining and crying and begging for intervention. Like I said, it's simple. The first and most essential step on that simple road is wanting peace. Airing grievances is one thing. Pursuing issues in international court is one thing. Supporting violence, enabling it, causing it is another. What gets me is that killing is never something to be gleeful about. Yet what I get is one side. Bombers, snipers, rocket launchers and the outrage sits and waits until there is retribution. Then the whiners come out in force and expect to be credible. Ok, gotcha.

RealityLicks -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 6:47:36 AM)
How soon you've felt the need to resort to insults. Our exchange will have to end here, but no worries, on close inspection of your post, I really can't discern anything meriting a reply.

DomKen -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 7:50:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks Sigh. Not again. Over 90% of the people in Gaza have been forced to live there as refugees from other parts of Palestine, their homes now occupied by Israelis. So your analogy of someone shooting at you from their "house" would work better if you called it a prison. If 90% of the people in Gaza live in refugee camps it is because of Egypt, the country that built the camps, and the palestinian leadership. The camps were created in 1948 and only a tiny minority of those actual refugees are still alive after 61 years. It has been politically conveneint for the anti Israel leaders in the arab states to have palestinians in "refugee camps" and it was their propoganda that produced the overwhelming majority of the original refugees and their political posturing that has prevented the descendants from being integrated into their larger society. Israel has shown remarkable restraint in not simply closing all the camps under their control and ending the farce that there are masses of "refugees" languishing in them waiting for the chance to return to homes but prevented from doing so by the bigoted Israelis. The fact is arabs who didn't flee in 1948 live and work peacefully with full political rights inside Israel. I feel bad for the average palestinian arab in the West Bank or Gaza. They're in a bad position but they supported terrorist organizations and tolerated the murders of any moderate leaders who might have been willing to pursue a true peace process. Israel has tried beyond any reasonable amount of patience to negotiate peace with the palestinian arabs and they have got nothing for their efforts despite conceding to palestinian demands on virtually all issues. The only hope for the palestinians is the emergence of a Ghandi or King type leader who can inspire a non violent opposition movement willing to actually negotiate a lasting peace.

DomKen -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 8:06:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen So some bad stuff happened. Does Hamas launch rockets and mortars from civilian areas? Does Hamas wear uniforms and present seperate targets from the civilians in Gaza? In short is there any possible response to Hamas' attacks against the Israeli civilian population that would not have resulted in these incidents? If Hamas chooses to hide amongst civilians does that mean Israel should simply capitulate and wade into the Med until they all drown? These videos are not about Hamas, so the debate should not be about them either. Neither should it be necessary for anyone taking part in it to have to pay the customary lip service to their iniquities. No. Those videos were about uncorroborated claims. The three young men claiming to have been used as shields had no evidence. The video and photos did not actually show what the narrator claimed. The man leading an IDF patrol was pretty clearly a voluntary particpant and was likely a translator. The child tied in front of the drivers seat of a humvee is pretty clearly not there so as to be driven around as he would make driving safely nearly impossible. More likely he was tied to the vehicle after being caught throwing stones or some such and the photo is simply being misrepresented. The prisoner on the ground besides an IDF soldier who was standing is clearly no shield as he would provide no protection and again the narration is likely a misrepresentation of what was actually going on, based on the blindfold the man had been apprehended and was about to be transported when that soldier or some nearby came under fire. After decades of outright lies by the pro palestinians about this sort of thing shouldn't something like this require actual proof?

RealityLicks -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 8:16:08 AM)
So the only version of democracy that is available to Palestinians is to elect leaders of whom the Israelis approve? I wonder how that approach to self-determination would go down in the US. I'm sure every country at war would hope their opponents would elect a non-violent leader. This type of choice is also available to the Israeli public but strangely, you do not suggest it is the way forward for them. In reality, you could hardly call Abbas a hardliner. He has bent over backwards for peace with Israel and eradicated attacks on the settlers only to be completely undermined and forced to resign by the the Israeli Govt. The Israeli Govt wants hardliners in power, not moderates like Abbas. It allows them a free hand to react in election-winning displays of force. I don't expect you'll agree with any of this. You'll find it as objectionable as I do your narrative of the loss of Palestinian lands. So let's put it aside - just for now. How does anything you have said justify stripping young men and herding them into apartments ahead of armed patrols? or forcing them to kneel before tanks - during combat? Or the deaths of over 300 children? Are you seriously asking us to believe each of those deaths was an accident?

Kirata -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 8:34:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks I don't expect you'll agree with any of this. You'll find it as objectionable as I do your narrative of the loss of Palestinian lands. I think there is merit in what you say. Sometimes I wonder what the hell is wrong with the world. Most people, it seems to me, just want to get on with life and have as nice a day as they can. But most of our various govenments seem committed to endlessly stirring up shit over one thing or another that ordinary people end up having either to die for or pay for. There ought to be a law that if you're in politics, you have to be on Valium. K.

MadAxeman -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 8:54:19 AM)
Here's some reportage of the IDF soldiers confessions from UK and US sources. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/06/israel1 http://www.uspoliticsonline.net/war-peace/20540-israeli-soldiers-confess.html http://todaysnewsnj.blogspot.com/2009/03/israeli-soldiers-confess-to-murders-in.html

Kirata -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 9:08:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman Here's some reportage of the IDF soldiers confessions from UK and US sources. Yeah, I posted a couple of links earlier in the thread. I don't really trust Israel. The Orthodox have too much influlence and control over there. But it is also true that there's plenty of fault to go around. K.

StrangerThan -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 9:10:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks How soon you've felt the need to resort to insults. Our exchange will have to end here, but no worries, on close inspection of your post, I really can't discern anything meriting a reply. I didn't consider it an insult, just an observation. I see a lot of condemnation, a lot of sitting on the sidelines and pointing fingers. What I don't see is any real alternative. So tell me. What is the resolution that lets everyone live in peace, everyone have the basic right to a secure society, the basic right to pursue their own religious beliefs or lack thereof, the basic right to simply exist without worrying about the person next door poking a gun out the window one day and blowing a hole through your child's head? And as far as ongoing grievances are concerned, somewhere the killing has to stop and dialog has to start with some real effort to allow it a chance of success. Try and find some merit. Who knows, you might just create world peace and win a thousand Nobel peace prizes. I'll bow before you magnificience if you do. Somewhere along the line though, you have to take the targets off the backs of everyone involved - and that includes those in Israel.

Politesub53 -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 12:04:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen The man leading an IDF patrol was pretty clearly a voluntary particpant and was likely a translator. Your powers of deduction amaze me. How do you know the main wasnt told " lead the way or we will shoot you " quote: After decades of outright lies by the pro palestinians about this sort of thing shouldn't something like this require actual proof? How about the admissions from IDF soldiers quoted in the Israeli press, or are they lies too ? Edited to fix quotes

slvemike4u -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 12:25:17 PM)
Polite sub are you going to believe your lying eyes,the testimony of the soldiers themselves.....or protestations of innocence by Israel and it's supporters.

KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 12:28:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks Guardian Video: Gaza - human shields Guardian Video: Gaza - war crimes Guardian Video: Gaza - attacks on medics To follow up on last month's exchanges concerning the Israeli incursion into Gaza, I thought I'd post these videos. Taken together with last week's admissions from troops that they did fire on civilians, a picture is emerging that completely supports the critics of the IDF. I'll admit that I only watched the first 2 minutes of the first video that you posted. After that much, I saw no reason to waste any more of my time on this utter bullshit. Unless you would care to point out which of the three videos actually gives any kind of proof, rather than blatant propaganda? If the other two links are anything like the first one, then the only way someone could believe that this tripe is any kind of "proof" of IDF war crimes is that they are a partisan, or so tied up in their own ideological position and confirmation bias that no amount of information and data could convince them that their position is mistaken, and that simple accusations is tantamout to a conviction. Firm PS. I find myself utterly flummoxed that DomKen and I are on the same side in this topic. Hell musta frozen over sometime today. [:)] You could have at least read the news articles. rollseyes

KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 12:34:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman Here's some reportage of the IDF soldiers confessions from UK and US sources. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/06/israel1 http://www.uspoliticsonline.net/war-peace/20540-israeli-soldiers-confess.html http://todaysnewsnj.blogspot.com/2009/03/israeli-soldiers-confess-to-murders-in.html Israel can never do any wrong in the eyes of many, including people in this thread. It's almost pointless to post these links. They won't listen. They'll play self-denial games and twist it to whatever version makes the Israelis the good guys.

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