RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (Full Version)

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KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 6:41:09 PM)

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/war-crimes-charges-mount-against-israel-20090324-98vl.html



KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 6:47:08 PM)

Gentlemen, you're trying to justify war crimes.

That's all there is to it.



StrangerThan -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 7:09:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

Gentlemen, you're trying to justify war crimes.

That's all there is to it.


And by your lack of outrage on the other side, you are condoning it.

Over 6,000 palestinians have died since 2000.  Almost 1,200 israeli's have died of terrorist attacks in the same time frame.

You want to whine, cry, and moan. There's plenty of bodies on both sides. You're right. Israel posseses the firepower to wreak much more destruction. Tell you what, I'll go along with your outrage here. You go along with mine.

I just don't think you're capable or really care.



UPSG -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 7:20:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Kaine, no one is defending using a child as a shield. What is irksome is the immediate and abrupt outrage over those actions while outrage is virtually nonexistent when it comes to incursions and killings from the other side. Those homemade rockets they use kill indiscriminately. Bombs do so as well. Innocents are targeted all the time in Israel but the outrage just isn't there.

Yet, cross the border and no matter what, it will materialize.

Interesting thing about guerilla warfare is that it holds military to higher standards than police in some cases given that all the aiding and abetting people are innocents.

I also know I've been in that type of situation before where you look out over a populace and can't tell combatant from passerby until shit goes down. And even then you can't trust the passersby. It's a no-win situation unless the populace itself wants peace.

And if they don't, I personally have no problem destroying all their supplies and flattenning every building in sight.

Yes, those actions in the links you posted are wrong. They are a wrong beget by a wrong beget by another wrong beget by so many wrongs the begetting is like reading the first chapter in one of the old testament books.

For it to stop, somewhere both sides have to be willing to come to the table and give peace a chance.

Hamas is not willing to do that.

I mean, there's another post on this board about news organizations being biased. Where is the fair and balanced here? It's as missing as it is on the network that claims it.


You are aware some of the North American Indian tribes were very war like and excessively violent and sadistic?

I mean by that not just the level of wrath and brutality they fought among one another with, but the attacks on non-combatant white women and children recorded. Torturing white women and killing them only after you literally roast their babies in front of them would be regarded as terrorizing in anyone's book.

Being cognitive of that, who was right or wrong in the European invasion and colonization of North America, the "red man" or the "white man"? Or is the truth "some where in the middle."

The "truth" of right and wrong between the Israeli state and the Palestinians might not be so much in the "middle."

Americans might be less willing to talk of "peace" if it was an issue of their own patrimony - say California or Texas. At that point and time war become "righteous." And I'll note you evidently had your boots in patrimony outside of the U.S., but would you raise holy hell if we invited Chinese troops into Detroit and other American cities to police the mini civil wars between Black and Latino-American factional divides that seem to want no peace? (Black on Black gang warfare and Latino on Latino gang warfare)

My point is that many Americans seem to have a smug attitude that other nations need to accept colonization but we Americans are justified to raise eternal hell across the world if two planes (no occupation) fly into banking cathedrals. (it's said you can tell what's most important to a people by their tallest buildings)



StrangerThan -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 9:02:20 PM)

Sometimes ups, I just don't have a clue where you're coming from and when I do, I sometimes wonder why.

Yes, I know. Everyone killed everyone else in history and history is full of genocide, infanticide, democide,femicide, fratricide, and in the case of distraught bankers, exfenestracide.

I did none of the above and accept history as something I cannot change. As for talks of peace, other than one side totally subjugating the other, it's about the best way to stop killing each other. Either way, I'm done here. People see what they want to see and evidently, what I'm supposed to see here is one side and one side only. Since I'm not going to do that, then I'll leave those alone who insist upon doing so.



UPSG -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 9:26:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Sometimes ups, I just don't have a clue where you're coming from and when I do, I sometimes wonder why.

Yes, I know. Everyone killed everyone else in history and history is full of genocide, infanticide, democide,femicide, fratricide, and in the case of distraught bankers, exfenestracide.

I did none of the above and accept history as something I cannot change. As for talks of peace, other than one side totally subjugating the other, it's about the best way to stop killing each other. Either way, I'm done here. People see what they want to see and evidently, what I'm supposed to see here is one side and one side only. Since I'm not going to do that, then I'll leave those alone who insist upon doing so.


Not at all. I think it equally tragic when an Israeli - especially a young Israeli - is killed by a terrorist attack or some form of hatred.

But what I'm suggesting is that their can be right and wrong sides over the issues of colonization and related warfare. And Israel is not even that old as a nation-state so it is understandable animosities on both sides run deep.

However, with the United States taking a clear side, it positions itself (for historical record and later critique I might add) in a precarious way.

I read a military historian - actually supposedly the most respected in Israel - who basically argued in his book that the British did a much better job in Northern Ireland than the U.S. in Iraq and that the U.S. troubles in Iraq and the Israelis failure to exhaust the Palestinians, is the dawn of the end of the U.S. and those like her, being able to conquer all worlds and force their will by military force alone.



MadAxeman -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/24/2009 11:48:10 PM)

quote:

Get your head around this, I'm as liberal as they come. I actually know history and have been in the region repeatedly. I've seen the situation on the ground and know for a fact that what the pro palestinians portray is a very slanted if not outright false version of events. Everyone conveniently forgets the tunnels for smuggling arms across the Egyptian border, the ambulance used to transport terrorists and bombs, random rocket attacks, the repeated failure of the palestinian leaders to abide by any term of any of the multitude of negotiated settlements, The worst anti jew filth spewed 24/7 by the palestinian media, the glorification of people who blow up women and children, Entebbe, Munich, Yom Kippur War, the fact that more jews were expelled from arab states by force than fled Israel in 1948, the fact that from 1948 until 1967 no Jew prayed at the Western Wall despite being able to see it etc. etc. ad seemingly infinitum.

The IDF and Israeli government has been unbelievably gentle and restrained in dealing with the palestinians. I guarantee you that no other nation would have been so gentle and restrained in dealing with terrorists.

And that is the deepest crock of shit in this thread.



SpinnerofTales -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 5:35:22 AM)

Unfortunatly, the moral high ground on this one is not easy to find. There are a number of reasons for this, not the least of which is that this is the way that people in this region have always made war. As a supporter of Isreal, it breaks my heart to see them sink to this level and I do believe action must be taken.

That said, there is one thing that is seldom said but I believe to be the truth:

If the Plaistinians laid down their weapons, the next day there would be no more violence.
If the Isrealies laid down their weapons, the next day there would be no more Israel.



thishereboi -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 6:11:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Unfortunatly, the moral high ground on this one is not easy to find. There are a number of reasons for this, not the least of which is that this is the way that people in this region have always made war. As a supporter of Isreal, it breaks my heart to see them sink to this level and I do believe action must be taken.

That said, there is one thing that is seldom said but I believe to be the truth:

If the Plaistinians laid down their weapons, the next day there would be no more violence.
If the Isrealies laid down their weapons, the next day there would be no more Israel.



Well, I never expected to say this, but good post Spinner.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 6:24:26 AM)

Damn.

Just damn.

I agree with both DomKen and Spinner in this thread ...

Where's my valium?

Firm



FirmhandKY -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 6:32:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Guardian Video: Gaza - human shields
Guardian Video: Gaza - war crimes
Guardian Video: Gaza - attacks on medics                                                               

To follow up on last month's exchanges concerning the Israeli incursion into Gaza, I thought I'd post these videos.


I'll admit that I only watched the first 2 minutes of the first video that you posted.

After that much, I saw no reason to waste any more of my time on this utter bullshit. 



You could have at least read the news articles.  *rollseyes*


I read Kirata's two links.

More of the same.

The OP posted no "news reports", just video propaganda, if the first video was any indication (and I asked him to tell me which video actually had any proof of his accusations, and he ignored the request).

If the first 5 links all are the same bullshit, why should I waste any more time checking every link afterwords, especially since not a single "IDF warcrimes" accuser who has posted a link has bothered to summarize or explain any of the links other than saying "Here! Proof!".

This lack of the desire or inability to summarize, explain or expound with any commentary is an indication of an inability to reason.  Which shows up constantly in this thread.

Firm



MadAxeman -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 6:38:00 AM)

Read my links then.
They include confessions by Israeli soldiers reported in Israeli newspapers.



StrangerThan -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 7:04:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Unfortunatly, the moral high ground on this one is not easy to find. There are a number of reasons for this, not the least of which is that this is the way that people in this region have always made war. As a supporter of Isreal, it breaks my heart to see them sink to this level and I do believe action must be taken.

That said, there is one thing that is seldom said but I believe to be the truth:

If the Plaistinians laid down their weapons, the next day there would be no more violence.
If the Isrealies laid down their weapons, the next day there would be no more Israel.



Well, I never expected to say this, but good post Spinner.


Spinner has a lot of good posts. I don't always agree with him - lol, but like DK, he causes you to not just reassess the things that have been sitting around in your mind as fact forever, but look at things in a different light - mostly because both of them will hand you your ass in a debate if you don't consider what you say before you say it.

The good thing about that is in all that reassessment, sometimes you find places internally that need some adjustment - which what debate is all about.



KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 9:16:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

If the Plaistinians laid down their weapons, the next day there would be no more violence.
If the Isrealies laid down their weapons, the next day there would be no more Israel.



A popular, but inaccurate phrase.

The Palestinians don't have the means to destroy Israel.

I mean, who is trying to destroy who, when you actually look at the surface of what happened this year?  In the space of a few weeks, Israel knocked Gaza back to the stone age.  They caused billions in damage, when Gaza was already in poverty.

If the Isrealies laid down their weapons, and gave the Palestinians their own state stopped economic blockades, the Palestinians would have no reason to attack Israel, although some of their hardliners may try.  Nevertheless, these would be important steps towards peace.

If the Palestinians layed down their arms, they would continue to live in one of the most deprived and overcrowded places on Earth, and Israel would continue to oppress them.



KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 9:22:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I read Kirata's two links.

More of the same.

The OP posted no "news reports", just video propaganda, if the first video was any indication (and I asked him to tell me which video actually had any proof of his accusations, and he ignored the request).

If the first 5 links all are the same bullshit, why should I waste any more time checking every link afterwords, especially since not a single "IDF warcrimes" accuser who has posted a link has bothered to summarize or explain any of the links other than saying "Here! Proof!".

This lack of the desire or inability to summarize, explain or expound with any commentary is an indication of an inability to reason.  Which shows up constantly in this thread.

Firm
 

Witness testimony of medical workers who have no reason to lie, over half of the medical facilities in Gaza bombed (it is a war crime to bomb any medical facility or target medical personel), Amnesty and Human Rights Watch both saying there is evidence of the IDF using human shields, video evidence of the IDF leading a human shield around building to building, confessions from Israeli soldiers, video evidence of medical personel being shot at, none of this is good enough for you?

By your own admittance, you only watched about 2 minutes of video.  Perhaps you should have watched the full videos before judging.  Perhaps you should do more than quickly scan over articles, which I can only assume is what you've been doing.

Read MadAxeman's articles.

There's also the plain fact that over 1, 400 were killed and billions of dollars of damagewas caused.  The head of the UN was completely disgusted by what he saw on the ground.  If Israelis weaponry is so accurate, how do they account for such massive destruction in such a short space of time?

And then you read the articles, and the pieces are fitting together.



DomKen -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 9:29:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD
The Palestinians don't have the means to destroy Israel.

I mean, who is trying to destroy who, when you actually look at the surface of what happened this year?  In the space of a few weeks, Israel knocked Gaza back to the stone age.  They caused billions in damage, when Gaza was already in poverty.

If the Isrealies laid down their weapons, and gave the Palestinians their own state stopped economic blockades, the Palestinians would have no reason to attack Israel, although some of their hardliners may try.  Nevertheless, these would be important steps towards peace.

If the Palestinians layed down their arms, they would continue to live in one of the most deprived and overcrowded places on Earth, and Israel would continue to oppress them.

That's bull.

Israel has been invaded repeatedly by its neighbors, once at the instigation of the PLO, Even the times Israel has launched the attack it was either a premptive strike against a gathering invasion force or an attempt to stop cross border attacks.

In 1948 it was the arab states that invaded and chopped up the palestinian state not Israel.

Both the PLO and Hamas have explicit staements in their charters calling for the destruction of Israel, and in Hamas' case the expulsion/eradication of all Jews. This despite multiple negotiated settlements which required the removal of that language.

Israel pulled out of Gaza, including removing residents that had been there for nearly 30 years, and allowed the palestinians to govern themselves with the explicit understanding that attacks from Gaza into Israel would not be tolerated and that the PA would actively work to stop them. The PA didn't follow through and when Hamas violently took over the territory they made attacking Israel from Gaza a top priority. Only after a particularly large barrage of rockets, on christmas day so as to not be noticed by most westerners, did Israel finally respond.

Learn the region's actual history before making claims about who would do what to whom.



KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 9:40:13 AM)

In their charters, they call for the destruction of Israel.

In reality, 21 Israelis have died from Hamas rockets fired out of Gaza since 2002.

The RIRA's objectives are to basically kill as many British soldiers and police as they can, and they've killed three this year.

Does Britain respond by sending apache helicopters into Belfast and just blast away indescriminantly, which Israeli soldiers have now confessed that they were ordered to do?  Fire on ANYONE, irregardless of if they are carrying weapons, or if they are medical personel.

Israel were still taking parts of Gaza after they had promised to pull out, by the way.

Nevertheless, you keep falling back on the same argument, DomKen - two wrongs make a right, in your mind.  As far as I am concerned, pointing to the actions of a group we ALL know are terrorists, does not justify the extreme actions of Israel.  You continuously fail to address the wrong doings of Israel, and instead get destracted by pinning the blame entirely on the Palestinians.

DomKen, you're the guy that keeps insisting the man being led around by the IDF in that video is "obviously willing".

What world are you living on?  Seriously?

Under what circumstances does a military lead around a civilian room to room, having him stand in FRONT of them, in the middle of a war zone?

To what extent are you willing to lie to yourself intellectually to defend Israel?



DomKen -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 9:50:11 AM)

Our troops in Iraq have civilian translators leadingthe way in most situations where gunfire is not being actively exchanged. I'm positive the IDF employs translators for that purpose and the obvious place for the translators is up front where he can speak to people as their lives are entered by men with guns. You can continue denying this simple fact but it just proves your complete lack of knowledge on the actual situation.

As to my continually defending the IDF its simply because I cannot, nor can anyone else, think of any other way for them to operate. They cannot allow random attacks against Israeli civilians and have to go into civilian areas and use violence to deal with terrorists hiding amongst the population. Do I wish it wasn't happening? Yes but the arabs chose violence over and over again and Israel has the right to defend itself.

Want me to get all motivated about the depredations of the IDF? Let's see an absolute end to palestinian attacks against Israeli civilians. No more rocket or mortars fired blindly across the border. An end to the vile blood libel and other lies spread on palestinian media. And yes the removal of the call for the destruction of Israel and anti jewish language from the charters, which is after all something the leaders of both sides agreed upon and Israel fulfilled its part of those agreements.



KaineD -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 9:51:16 AM)

It honestly reminds me of people defending the cops in the video of Rodney King getting beaten up.



piratecommander -> RE: Gaza - the facts emerge (3/25/2009 10:23:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: piratecommander


quote:

ORIGINAL: UBsincere

If the boy, tied to the jeep, keeps it from being hit by terrorist fire, seems to me everybody wins?



What, including the boy? What does the boy win?

Pirate


Still no answer ...

Maybe I'll give up on trying to find out what the boy wins ... the lack of response speaks volumes.

Ponders ... ... ...
Perhaps he was tied there to save him from falling off and "clearly" it wouldn't do not to have a "translator" handy on ones jeep. (see post # : 51 of this thread, thanks DK ) now I might see the soldiers who tied him there in so much more of a considerate light, looking after their "volunteer" and keeping the child out of harms way..

Or "perhaps" not ... ... ...

Pirate



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