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RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 12:54:06 PM   
UBsincere


Posts: 15
Joined: 7/7/2006
Status: offline 		KaineD:

"Israel can never do any wrong in the eyes of many, including people in this thread.  It's almost pointless to post these links.  They won't listen.  They'll play self-denial games and twist it to whatever version makes the Israelis the good guys."

Do you think that just maybe, you suffer from the same thing, just in reverse?

You are painting a lot of folks with a "broad brush".

So if someone doesn't agree with your views 100%, that makes them wrong?

Get past it, and move on>>>

You effectively stated your feelings, now respect those of the others on here.


(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 1:04:05 PM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		UBsincere, I'm sorry if I'm coming across a little peeved off.  But it really does bug me to see someone comment "clearly, that man being led around by the IDF in that video is a willing participant" and "clearly, it was just an accident when that medical guy got shot".

I'm sick of reading opinions and views that fly in the face of fact.  People are being dishonest with themselves in their attempts to justify Israel's actions.

(in reply to UBsincere)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 1:24:12 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

UBsincere, I'm sorry if I'm coming across a little peeved off.  But it really does bug me to see someone comment "clearly, that man being led around by the IDF in that video is a willing participant" and "clearly, it was just an accident when that medical guy got shot".

I'm sick of reading opinions and views that fly in the face of fact.  People are being dishonest with themselves in their attempts to justify Israel's actions.

The fact is that an unrestrained man was 10 or 15 feet away from the IDF soldiers. That isn't a human shield and that strongly implies voluntary behavior. Similiarly 3 people were out in the open, rapid gunfire is audible, the narrator claims the men were under intentional attack  yet only one man was injured from that fire and that wasn't lethal and only occured when all three had almost reached cover. The fact is that clearly describes people near a firefight not people actually being intentionally targeted by professional soldiers.

Those are the facts.

BTW I missed your outrage over US combat medics being intentionally targeted by Islamist terrorists while tending wounded.

(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 1:44:27 PM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

UBsincere, I'm sorry if I'm coming across a little peeved off.  But it really does bug me to see someone comment "clearly, that man being led around by the IDF in that video is a willing participant" and "clearly, it was just an accident when that medical guy got shot".

I'm sick of reading opinions and views that fly in the face of fact.  People are being dishonest with themselves in their attempts to justify Israel's actions.

The fact is that an unrestrained man was 10 or 15 feet away from the IDF soldiers. That isn't a human shield and that strongly implies voluntary behavior. Similiarly 3 people were out in the open, rapid gunfire is audible, the narrator claims the men were under intentional attack  yet only one man was injured from that fire and that wasn't lethal and only occured when all three had almost reached cover. The fact is that clearly describes people near a firefight not people actually being intentionally targeted by professional soldiers.

Those are the facts.

BTW I missed your outrage over US combat medics being intentionally targeted by Islamist terrorists while tending wounded.


Maybe you can start a topic about that, because it has absolutely no relevance in this topic.

What do you say about Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch saying the IDF used human shields?

What do you say about Israeli soldiers confessing that they had orders to fire upon civilians?

< Message edited by KaineD -- 3/24/2009 1:45:53 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 2:08:56 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Polite sub are you going to believe your lying eyes,the testimony of the soldiers themselves.....or protestations of innocence by Israel and it's supporters.


To be honest Mike, the first video of the three guys could have been propaganda. The video of the medic getting shot looked real enough to me. The thing that made me think there is truth to the story was the reports in the Israeli press.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 2:14:56 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		For me PoliteSub it was the testimony of individual Israeli soldiers.If three(which is what I read) are willing to speak out.....I am willing to assume that there are more who were troubled,yet don't have the courage and/or desire to air this in public.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 2:36:20 PM   
UPSG


Posts: 331
Joined: 1/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UBsincere

Gaza... Because you saw it on the media, that makes it so?

I know I am not a close follower of these situations, but what rules do terrorists follow?

Where are these rules of terrorist engagement posted?

I would like to read them so I can be better informed.

If the boy, tied to the jeep, keeps it from being hit by terrorist fire, seems to me everybody wins?

They can shoot rockets into Israel, but that is OK, as long as Israel doesn't cross the border to stop the rockets?

We need to learn to live in peace with each other!


Last I checked death and maiming were the hazards of professional soldiering. A non-combatant boy does not de facto assume the risk of being injured or killed in military action - not unless we suppose it racially prescriptive of Arab Palestinians.

Terrorists? The Americans once were regarded as terrorists.

How about I propose we give the nation-state of Israel expanded territory, and give them New York or Maryland or Texas. I know for damned sure the proud Texans would immediately become terrorists. When the IDF - if given the state of New York - starts binding your children and nephews to their military vehicles to protect them from the rocket fire of New York terrorists... will you be cheering them?

(in reply to UBsincere)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 2:50:46 PM   
UPSG


Posts: 331
Joined: 1/22/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

By that logic, rape is merely a form of persuasion.
 
K.
 


That comparison doesn't even make sense.

When you're in an army with much lower numbers than the opponent, and much lower quality weapons, you use the urban environment to move and hide.  It's not just terrorists that do it.  I'm sure US troops did it on the ground in Iraq, too.  Using buildings for cover and what not.

But we don't say "they're using human shields because they're hiding in an urban environment".  Realistically, where else do you go?  That's where you LIVE.

While, the Israeli forces are the ones who were ACTUALLY using human shields. 


Kaine is correct about guerrilla warfare.

(we also glamorize or revere the Kamikaze, in his samurai spirit, flying plane into ship or running on battle field with bombs strapped to himself - of course I can't defend that when it targets civilians, but many U.S. missiles can't differentiate between combatants and non-combatants either)

(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 2:57:02 PM   
UPSG


Posts: 331
Joined: 1/22/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Semantics. You call it guerilla warfare I call it hiding behind civilians. My answer is at least in English.


If you don't understand what guerilla warfare is, that's not my problem.

I read Spanish just fine. Guerilla means small war. Hamas isn't fighting a war they are terrorists hiding among civilians and attacking civilians.
quote:

quote:

I saw video of medical personel in a combat zone. I saw nothing indicative that they were intentional targets. The fact that they weren't killed seems telling considering they were out in the open when the shooting started. Beyond that I saw claims without presented evidence.


Are you sure you watched the video?  One of them got hit in the leg, as they were trying to carry a wounded person.

Being hit in the leg means it was an accident. Trained soldiers don't aim that low nor do they miss as much as what we saw in that video. I guarantee that the video failed to show the Hamas troops between the medics and the IDF. The medics were not under fire since they were not hit multiple times each which is what happens if people with automatic or semiautomatic rifles are shooting at you when you have no cover.


Depends on the soldier's marksmanship, ability to aim and fire under stress, and not all military branches have the same standards. And rapid fire does not mean someone will be hit multiple times. You can make a lots of noise and not hit the tree you're aiming at.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 2:57:39 PM   
UBsincere


Posts: 15
Joined: 7/7/2006
Status: offline 		Being a resident of New York, I wish someone would either buy it, or take it, and they can then pay all the zillions of dollars that are wasted here in the southeastern part of the state. (NYC).

"Help get Charlie off the MTA"..... (Kingston Trio)

(in reply to UPSG)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 3:02:11 PM   
UPSG


Posts: 331
Joined: 1/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think it is tragic but I also find it ironic that the Palestinians are complaining about human shields when they constantly fired rockets under cover of civilian shields.

I also find it ironic they are complaining about medics and hospitals coming under fire when they light the tail of a rocket with a high explosive warhead and did not give a shit where it landed or who it killed.

If you are going to pull the tail of a tiger then expect to get bit.

Butch


When you say "Palestinians" and "they" exactly who do you mean?

Is that kind of like "Jews" and "they" control the banks et cetera...?

I believe it's possible to create future "terrorists" also, so, which tail of which tiger is being pulled and who is finding themselves bitten or not bitten?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 3:13:41 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG

Kaine is correct about guerrilla warfare.

Oh, don't tell me there are two of you? Okay, here it is, listen up. Guerrilla tactics do not require that fighters hide behind LIVE shields or attack and kill CIVILIANS. It is not an inherent characteristic of the kind of warfare they are engaging in. It is entirely and solely a characteristic of the slobs who are doing it.
 
K.
 
 

(in reply to UPSG)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 3:34:59 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

UBsincere, I'm sorry if I'm coming across a little peeved off.  But it really does bug me to see someone comment "clearly, that man being led around by the IDF in that video is a willing participant" and "clearly, it was just an accident when that medical guy got shot".

I'm sick of reading opinions and views that fly in the face of fact.  People are being dishonest with themselves in their attempts to justify Israel's actions.

The fact is that an unrestrained man was 10 or 15 feet away from the IDF soldiers. That isn't a human shield and that strongly implies voluntary behavior. Similiarly 3 people were out in the open, rapid gunfire is audible, the narrator claims the men were under intentional attack  yet only one man was injured from that fire and that wasn't lethal and only occured when all three had almost reached cover. The fact is that clearly describes people near a firefight not people actually being intentionally targeted by professional soldiers.

Those are the facts.

BTW I missed your outrage over US combat medics being intentionally targeted by Islamist terrorists while tending wounded.


Maybe you can start a topic about that, because it has absolutely no relevance in this topic.

What do you say about Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch saying the IDF used human shields?

What do you say about Israeli soldiers confessing that they had orders to fire upon civilians?

Orders to fire upon civilians does not equal using human shields. It does not equal intentionally firing on medics treating a wounded man.

If I was a squad or platoon leader taking men into a Gaza refugee camp that had ample warning that the troops were coming I'd tell my men it was a free fire zone. Anything else would be an unnecessary risk of their lives.

Hamas etc. do not wear uniforms and fight from within civilian areas and while disguised as civilians. That is the primary reason civilians get hurt when the IDf engages Hamas or Hezbollah or the PLO.

Get your head around this, I'm as liberal as they come. I actually know history and have been in the region repeatedly. I've seen the situation on the ground and know for a fact that what the pro palestinians portray is a very slanted if not outright false version of events. Everyone conveniently forgets the tunnels for smuggling arms across the Egyptian border, the ambulance used to transport terrorists and bombs, random rocket attacks, the repeated failure of the palestinian leaders to abide by any term of any of the multitude of negotiated settlements, The worst anti jew filth spewed 24/7 by the palestinian media, the glorification of people who blow up women and children, Entebbe, Munich, Yom Kippur War, the fact that more jews were expelled from arab states by force than fled Israel in 1948, the fact that from 1948 until 1967 no Jew prayed at the Western Wall despite being able to see it etc. etc. ad seemingly infinitum.

The IDF and Israeli government has been unbelievably gentle and restrained in dealing with the palestinians. I guarantee you that no other nation would have been so gentle and restrained in dealing with terrorists.

(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 3:46:06 PM   
UPSG


Posts: 331
Joined: 1/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
By your definition, the only side capable of conducting warfare would be guerillas. The other side would be limited to two roles, one being that of policing a hostile population, the second being a target. Hamas was popularly elected and enjoys popular support in a country that was essentially created for them. Yeah I know, we can go debate the formation of the state of Israel all day long but truth is, that land is as ancestral to them as any muslim.


ST,

I started a thread some days ago about Jews from a point of ethnicity and or race. I believe a moderator deleted it though.

Jews are more akin to Latinos than to say... Italians. Jews are black (Ethiopian), white (Ashkenazi: Germanic and Slavic ancestry; Sephardic: Iberian ancestry), brown/olive (Arab), and they "Other" (different races) too.

Do morenos and mulattos in Brazil have more claim to Portugal than the Portuguese? Do the mestizos of Mexico and Peru have more claim to Spain than the Basque?

How do European Jewry (That's who runs Israel - UW-Milwuakee's university library is named after Golda Meir the first female Prime Minister of Israel I think. Anyways if you look at her photo on wikipedia when she was a young lady, she looks Itialian or Sicilian) have as much ancestral claim to the region of Palestine as the semetic Christian, Jewish, Muslim, agnostics and others that have lived their for centuries?

Both pro-Jewish and anti-Jewish (anti-semetic is a misnomer) people tend to view the Jews as one monolithic group. They have human diversity in phenotype and opinions just as the Latinos. Not all Jews support the concept of Zionism.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze%27ev_Herzog  

quote:

Ze’ev Herzog (born 1941) is an Israeli archeologist, professor of archaeology at The Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Cultures at Tel Aviv University. Ze’ev Herzog is the director of The Sonia and Marco Nadler Institute of Archaeology since 2005.
quote:

Herzog is among archaeologist leading the claim that “biblical archaeology is not anymore the ruling paradigm in archaeology and that archaeology became an independent discipline with its own conclusions and own observations which indeed present us a picture of a reality of ancient Israel quite different from the one which is described in the biblical stories.”[1]  
 

Article written by Ze’ev Herzog  

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/704190/posts  

quote:

It turns out that part of Israeli society is ready to recognize the injustice that was done to the Arab inhabitants of the country and is willing to accept the principle of equal rights for women - but is not up to adopting the archaeological facts that shatter the biblical myth. The blow to the mythical foundations of the Israeli identity is apparently too threatening, and it is more convenient to turn a blind eye.•
 

Arab does not = Muslim. Most the Arabs living in both the United States and and Brazil are Lebanese Christians. And while Palestinian are typically Muslim, there are Palestinian Christians, and in fact the Muslim and Christian Palestinians have as more if not more ancestral claim to patrimony of the Palestine region.  

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHjvMwdTsA&feature=channel_page  

< Message edited by UPSG -- 3/24/2009 3:48:57 PM >

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 3:55:39 PM   
UPSG


Posts: 331
Joined: 1/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: UPSG

Kaine is correct about guerrilla warfare.

Oh, don't tell me there are two of you? Okay, here it is, listen up. Guerrilla tactics do not require that fighters hide behind LIVE shields or attack and kill CIVILIANS. It is not an inherent characteristic of the kind of warfare they are engaging in. It is entirely and solely a characteristic of the slobs who are doing it.
 
K.


Guerrilla warfare, whether it be in the forested areas, farming areas, or urban areas does use the local environment and landscape toward its advantage. This was the problem U.S. soldiers encountered in Southeast Asia with the Viet Cong - they could not distinguish them from the local non-combatants.

If killing civilians intentionally makes an organization or institution "terrorists" then the United States is a "terrorist state." U.S. or CIA planes have intentionally targeted civilians structures in at least one Latin American country in the past in the effort to overthrow the government and replace the status quo with U.S. "friendlies."

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 4:12:45 PM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		I've at this point decided DomKen is not worth my time.  He's basically repeating the same arguments over and over.

"They're terrrrrrrrorrisssssssssssstsssssss!!  What they do is far worse!"

You're completely overlooking the links supplied here.  I really don't even think you've read through them.

Here are some texts from the links, since you won't read them...

Israeli military prosecutors have opened criminal investigations following allegations by soldiers that they carried out illegal shoot-to-kill orders against unarmed Palestinians.

Israel Defense Forces soldiers used an 11-year-old Palestinian boy as a human shield during the war against Hamas in the Gaza Strip, a group of UN human rights experts said Monday.

JERUSALEM, March 20 (Reuters) - Rabbis in the Israeli army told battlefield troops in January's Gaza offensive they were fighting a "religious war" against gentiles, according to one army commander's account published on Friday.

"Their message was very clear: we are the Jewish people, we came to this land by a miracle, God brought us back to this land and now we need to fight to expel the gentiles who are interfering with our conquest of this holy land," he said.

DomKen, how is any of this any better than what the eeeeeeeeeeeevil terrorists do?

I look at the figures, and I see over 1, 400 dead Palestinians in the space of a few weeks, billions of pounds of damage, over half their medical facilities destroyed.

You are dilluded if you think that is gentle or restrained.  You repeat the typical tired logical fallacy that "they are bad, so anything Israel does is justified" BS argument.

I have no words for how evil I think your total ignorance is.

We'll leave it at that.

< Message edited by KaineD -- 3/24/2009 4:14:08 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 4:44:29 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Just a note about whether the allegations of the parents who lost children are to be believed or not: there is always the possibility that something like this could be faked but those people were shedding real tears, there was real evidence that hunter-killer UAV's were used and they do have the capability to discern an unarmed schoolgirl from a Hamas irregular.
I just want to say that I don't recall ever seeing Israeli parents, grieving after a Palestinian attack being viewed coldly and dispassionately as possible fakes. 

If you have ever lost a member of your immediate family, let alone a child, you might try to imagine how you would react if someone asked you to spend the rest of your life lying about how they died.

Hundreds of children were killed. Their deaths could not possibly all be accidents. This is a war crime and if Israel is not a terrorist state, someone must be held accountable.


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 5:26:17 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Just a note about whether the allegations of the parents who lost children are to be believed or not: there is always the possibility that something like this could be faked but those people were shedding real tears, there was real evidence that hunter-killer UAV's were used and they do have the capability to discern an unarmed schoolgirl from a Hamas irregular.
I just want to say that I don't recall ever seeing Israeli parents, grieving after a Palestinian attack being viewed coldly and dispassionately as possible fakes. 

If you have ever lost a member of your immediate family, let alone a child, you might try to imagine how you would react if someone asked you to spend the rest of your life lying about how they died.

Hundreds of children were killed. Their deaths could not possibly all be accidents. This is a war crime and if Israel is not a terrorist state, someone must be held accountable.

I wouldn't view them as possible fakes if previous events  hadn't indicated it was more than a possibility. Remember the man and his son shown around the world huddling at a checkpoint caught between the IDF and palestinian gunmen? Remember the heartbreaking video of him shielding his son? Remember little Mohammed Al-Dura? Did you know it appears it was basically made up to make the IDF look bad? Did you know the news agency that reported the incident lost a court case over an expert saying the entire incident was staged with teh knowledge of the cameraman?

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 5:38:00 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline 		Kaine, no one is defending using a child as a shield. What is irksome is the immediate and abrupt outrage over those actions while outrage is virtually nonexistent when it comes to incursions and killings from the other side. Those homemade rockets they use kill indiscriminately. Bombs do so as well. Innocents are targeted all the time in Israel but the outrage just isn't there.

Yet, cross the border and no matter what, it will materialize.

Interesting thing about guerilla warfare is that it holds military to higher standards than police in some cases given that all the aiding and abetting people are innocents.

I also know I've been in that type of situation before where you look out over a populace and can't tell combatant from passerby until shit goes down. And even then you can't trust the passersby. It's a no-win situation unless the populace itself wants peace.

And if they don't, I personally have no problem destroying all their supplies and flattenning every building in sight.

Yes, those actions in the links you posted are wrong. They are a wrong beget by a wrong beget by another wrong beget by so many wrongs the begetting is like reading the first chapter in one of the old testament books.

For it to stop, somewhere both sides have to be willing to come to the table and give peace a chance.

Hamas is not willing to do that.

I mean, there's another post on this board about news organizations being biased. Where is the fair and balanced here? It's as missing as it is on the network that claims it.

< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 3/24/2009 5:39:37 PM >

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(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Gaza - the facts emerge - 3/24/2009 6:39:30 PM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		Maybe the outrage isn't as strong simply because Hamas does not possess the ability to cause nearly as much death and destruction.

Since 2002, 21 Israelis have died from Hamas rockets fired out of Gaza.

I don't understand why people are incapable of putting that into perspective when considering the genocide in Gaza.

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 80
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