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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 8:53:59 PM

Andalusite

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Daddysredhead, I *could* say no if I truly needed to, but it was a huge effort for me. I sometimes pushed myself past the point where I probably *should* have safed out, and he stopped things. He liked making me tap out multiple times in the same scene, or doing the verbal equivalent of predicament bondage (he picked two things I didn't like, and would do one to me until I begged for the other, and go back and forth).

(in reply to LovingMistress45)

Post #: 21

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 8:57:35 PM

openmindedslave

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Of course we see constant videos form advertisers here that show people being bound and forced to do all sorts of actions .It is the excuse many will use for doing activities that some will say they would never have done normally. That if they were threatened by black mail or pain or threats of sometype they will do anything their told to do . It's not going to happen in reality unless there is fear of discovery or pictures or some form of real black mail. But the fantasy is the excuse to do what ever.

(in reply to LovingMistress45)

Post #: 22

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 9:00:05 PM

Daddysredhead

Posts: 23574
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From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Daddysredhead, I *could* say no if I truly needed to, but it was a huge effort for me. I sometimes pushed myself past the point where I probably *should* have safed out, and he stopped things. He liked making me tap out multiple times in the same scene, or doing the verbal equivalent of predicament bondage (he picked two things I didn't like, and would do one to me until I begged for the other, and go back and forth).

Andalusite, I completely understand.

I think they may have read from the same chapter and verse that day.

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(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 23

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 9:08:59 PM

StrangerThan

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I think it's a great theory, and one that has some merit.

I also think it's something one should never attempt to argue in a court of law, especially when leaving is predicated upon the ability to do so. Given the rope and restraint artists in this forum, that isn't an assumption that always holds validity.

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Post #: 24

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/24/2009 9:17:21 PM

Andalusite

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Yeah, ability to move/physically walk has pretty much zero to do with consent when it comes to BDSM, as far as I'm concerned.

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 25

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 4:45:00 AM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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There are people who enjoy force play. Who don't feel that they are submitting, unless they are doing things they don't like and unless threats are used on them. Look at the "my boyfriend insists I get another girl to join us" type threads that pop up every so often.

These women aren't bisexual, they don't want this, but they don't want to be hurt either physically or emotionally or both if they don't do it. They get ignored and abandoned until they finally agree, and then again ignored and abandoned when they can't find anybody who wants to do their guy. Which in itself ought to be a tip off, if he's that horrible that none of her friends find him desirable.

Anyway that's force play of the bad kind. Beyond that, there are people who just love being physically subdued, wrestled and bound and used without any ability to stop it. Which now that I think about it, is sounding pretty damn good. (He's been working out of town for two weeks and I'm feeling deprived.)

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Post #: 26

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 5:41:26 AM

StrangerThan

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I didn't have much time to write on this last night as I have an um with streph and pregnant woman who thought she was gonna get out of the morning sickness thing. Ha. Only it isn't just morning sickness. Re all of that to mean my time to expound on ideas, grin, is somewhat limited depending on which is in need at the moment.

The idea of forced against your will can be pretty damned hot. We have "fight nights", which are exactly what they sound like. I've come away with knees to the head, kicks to the mouth, fingernail rakes... it is a fighting, kicking, cursing, furniture knocking over, slapping, biting (bit the fuck out of me last time) venture into humiliation, ass raping, forced sex and painful submission once I get hold of her. That judo stuff comes in handy sometimes ya know. It can last for hours and leave her completely wasted afterwards, spent, bruised, scraped and sore all weekend. We don't do these on week nights, and now that she's pregnant, well, it's gonna be a while. The emotions are real, the anger is real, the need to subdue and take what I am gonna have is real. The sex is powerful and raw, and afterwards that sated feeling is real and so is the fact that I take care of her after it is done.

But... we know each other, and know each other well. I have hurt her in ways, purposely, during it that has nothing to do with being consensual nor with any of the other acronyms folks involved in BDSM like to spout. Safe? Unsafe? It's both to a degree. I know how to hurt people in and out of the context of what's normally defined by BDSM relationships. That doesn't necessarily make it safe, especially when the other is resisting and doing so strongly. There is room for error. There is room for accident. And she can leave.. if she gets away. Again, but, like I said, we know each other and know each other well. It is not something I would do with a casual acquaintance nor someone I didn't know well.

Coercive sex can be pretty damned hot. That too we experiment with on occasion. It can and often does contain humiliation sequences, forced sex, and that spider in the web feel of being drawn deeper and deeper with no outlet. But, again, I know her well.

And that is the key for me. Like I said in the abbreviated reply above, it's also not something one should ever attempt to defend in court. I said that for a simple reason. I've known several women to whom the idea carried the three strike syndrome, appeal, arousal and submission, who also came out of it having lost all three of those aspects and in one case, ready to go to authorities. She did. She won. The key in three of those cases was that the person they were with was not someone they knew well.

So yeah, within a certain context, it does have merit - a lot of merit. Outside of that context, it can depending on the people I guess. It is a place I would tread warily though.

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Post #: 27

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 7:17:58 AM

cantilena

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

I am going to put out the premise that when one acquiesces to a Dominant, the "against my will" concept is crap-that it is really:

i am too lazy to do it
i want someone who cares about me to ask it
i want to do it but my moral upbringing won't set me free
i am too scared to do it alone
i am too uneducated to know the difference
i don't want to have a conscience about it
i need someone to care enough to accept it
i get off on the "game"

At that point it is---acquiescence--there is no forcing.

Forcing is truly aganst one's will, kicking, screaming, unexpected circumstances--bound, gagged, raped, committed, drugged---

A submissive can say no no no till they are blue in the face--if they REALLY do not intend to "go there"--they won't--they will leave, end the relationship--dump the D, fight, kick, claw, rebel--MAJOR.

but the whole " He/She makes me"--is because you really WANT He/She to have a vested interest in you, to give a damn, to want you to grow, to accept you--and you say "ok because you WANT to" at that point the "forced" card is a joker.

Thoughts?

I agree almost entirely with this, fwiw. Some of the "reality" scenarios you suggested hit the nail on the head, in fact, when it comes to resistance play with us.

I've never really considered it 'forcing' though, although that element is of course there on the surface. I've always simply considered consent trumped the facade of force I guess; I've never explicitly thought about it or otherwise.

(in reply to CatdeMedici)

Post #: 28

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 8:05:11 AM

Andalusite

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Yup, wrestling and take-downs can be yummy fun, but I don't necessarily think of them a forced. Hmm, I think a big part of the "forced" play dynamic is that it tends to go into the consentual non-consent area, where you're more likely to need chosen safewords because "no" doesn't mean "no" anymore. When I've been a Domme or top, frequently guys have done things for me that they didn't like/want to do, but were willing to do for me. I think that's hot, just as it was appealing on some levels for me as a submissive. However, I didn't use verbal humiliation or a lot of struggling/etc. in those scenes, so I don't consider it to be "force" play per se.

(in reply to cantilena)

Post #: 29

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 8:41:21 AM

IndigoMystry

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Joined: 3/20/2009
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I can believe in "led me to do it" but "forced me to do it" not so much. I see a lot of "forced to be lesbian", "forced to suck a man's cock". etc. I have to look askance at such statements as much as I do the "faked" and alleged "abuse" on sites like The Training of O, etc. The sub WANTS such actions, the Dom/Domme simply gives them the opportunity to do it, a justification, so to speak. I mean, given the sub-set, many subs (not all!) believe they require domination to be the person they hunger to be, the pleaser, the slut, whatever it may be. But deep down they have to want to do this or be that or why would they? The "forcing" by real actual violence is another game altogether, it's not a genuine relationship, it's the faux kind and often dangerous. There is (I know, Capt. Obvious statement), a line between abuse and consentual. I personally feel a lot of the "forced" is pretty consentual.

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 30

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 9:06:35 AM

MasterRaid

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Joined: 8/16/2008
From: The Brink of insanity.
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Hmmm, Forced Play. Well the way I see Forced Play, to be honest, is that really in its basest form is not Forced at all when done properly. It is an illusion. When being done with a submissive you need to take into account that the sub has rights and choices and therefore EVERYTHING must be negotiated. Prefferably a contract of submission should be drawn up. One that (in as much detail as you can muster) covers everything you will do or could possibly do to and for the sub. If the submissive states "I would love to be forced to perform fellatio" or "have sex with a woman". Then it cannot be a truely forced thing since she has previously stated these wishes. It would then be an illusion of a forced act. Now if a sub states in her contract or previous negotiations that she is willing to allow her Dom to force her into acts that she would not normally do as a blanket statement then I say again it is not a forced act as she gave consent. Ultimately she still has the power to say "No" and being a submissive she always will. Now if you look at the slave side of Forced Play where no contracts are usually drawn up and said slave is at the total whim of her Dom or Master you would have to realize that one she accepted her slavery then all bets are off to anything forced because the act of slavery in and of itself is a form of blanketed consent or (and I use this term loosely as I do not totally agree with how it is meant) Implied Consent. My own belle loves the ability to be Forced because of her own desire to be a naughty girl and yet openly claim to be a good girl. This is something she and I have discussed at legnth and whereas she will beg and plead come kicking, screaming, and crying when the act is completed (whatever said act was) and she comes out of space she nuzzles My leg and thanks me for the rush. Now again if one were to view this act without prior knowledge they would view it as forced but in its truest form it is really a desire to experience and be able to say 'No' while meaning "Yes". So I believe I am agreeing with catilina's views on the concept of "He made Me do it" being a wash because if any of them wished to, even the slaves, they actually could prevent the act of Forced Play.

P.S. I would like to state that I do agree with the statement of Rape and the maggots that actually do acts that are truely against the will of ANYONE should be strung up and beaten with a bar of soap in a sock. Women are a valuable prize and when they choose to be with a Man there is no mistaking that they wish to. The Saying "she really wanted it" is a cowards excuse. Know when she says NO.

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Post #: 31

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 10:49:09 AM

InTonguesslave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

A submissive can say no no no till they are blue in the face--if they REALLY do not intend to "go there"--they won't--they will leave, end the relationship--dump the D, fight, kick, claw, rebel--MAJOR.

but the whole " He/She makes me"--is because you really WANT He/She to have a vested interest in you, to give a damn, to want you to grow, to accept you--and you say "ok because you WANT to" at that point the "forced" card is a joker.

Thoughts?

clawing myself out of a relationship because i didnt want to do certain things happened once and only because everything else was awful.

when you are with someone and there is a vested interest in that someone, then the question of clawing and screaming youre way out of it becomes less and less of an option.

there are going to be moments in my future with Sir that have already had me eyeing up the exit - im aware of them - clawing and screaming for an out isnt an option because i dont want to.

i will not be forced against my will, i agree, because my will is to stay but i will be forcing myself from time to time to stay still, stay put, do as im told, shut up and get on with it because as his slave i have given him the right to decide on these things. i also trust him and know that he wont force me to do anything too quickly or too soon or before im ready.

to force in the way you suggest here is to bypass whats healthy and progressive, risk breaking all trust and respect and render the relationship and the submissive valueless

it isnt always the case that a submissive will submit to something because she wants to. sometimes she will submit to something she definitely does not want to do, but she will do it for her M, not because its a 'my way or highway' situation either, she will do it for her M because her M wants her to and what her M wants her M must have (try saying that quickly!!) - the fact that it isnt 'my way or highway' makes what she does for her M valued more - by her and by him.

the forced card isnt a joker just because the sub isnt screaming and demanding for the emergency services and a direct line to her lawyer.

the forced card does exist and though you might not get the drama necessarily i can assure you the internal screaming can get very loud indeed.

- its just we're big now and we're expected to suck it up and take responsibility for our decisions

< Message edited by InTonguesslave -- 3/25/2009 11:02:44 AM >

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 11:15:43 AM

DavanKael

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Cat, I completely agree with your premises and assertions. The whole 'forced' whatever annoys me to no end; I generally see it as a way to have something you want while disclaiming responsibility. I also think it's insulting to anyone who has ever been forced to do something against their will and, as I'm thinking and typing, isn't something I'd like to accuse someone on the D-side of the kneel related to me of doing (Victimizing me, in essence) or have someone toward whom I was functioning on the D-side of the kneel accuse me of doing (Victimizing them, in essence).
Davan

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Post #: 33

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 11:35:42 AM

sublace

Posts: 201
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TY People did such a great job explaining a difficult subject.

quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslave
- there are going to be moments in my future with Sir that have already had me eyeing up the exit - im aware of them - clawing and screaming for an out isnt an option because i dont want to.

- the forced card does exist and though you might not get the drama necessarily i can assure you the internal screaming can get very loud indeed.

the screaming can get loud - true and i hear ya

quote:

- its just we're big now and we're expected to suck it up and take responsibility for our decisions

hi - i wonder how you mean this line, if you please? The blue alien has me feeling wistfull and ? just asking. thanks

(in reply to InTonguesslave)

Post #: 34

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 11:59:13 AM

InTonguesslave

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Joined: 2/6/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sublace

quote:

- its just we're big now and we're expected to suck it up and take responsibility for our decisions

hi - i wonder how you mean this line, if you please? The blue alien has me feeling wistfull and ? just asking. thanks

reading it back it looks a bit melodramatic, but i think i was a bit irked by the suggestion that we're only here for the beer and sunshine anything too challenging and we're screaming for the exit button.

what i meant above is that when we agree to a relationship with someone then we agree to it.

when we start off we know what each other wants and expects - there will be some curve balls too, but on the whole, generally speaking we know, or we should know, what we're getting into.

therefore: we take the good with the not so good, we suck it up when it gets a bit tough and we take responsibility for the choices we made and not (as the op suggests) run for the exit screaming and kicking each time our Masters get a bit carried away.

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RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 12:03:47 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut

quote:

Is not then, the "wanting to keep someone happy"--then a giving in, therefore not forcing?

I can see where you are coming from but say someone attempted to rape me and i fought back like a wild banchee kicking and screaming. Thats force and against my will right? So what if someone tries to rape me and i don't fight back, what if i figure thats its going to happen whether i like it or not and just let them to get it over with. Is that not still force and against my will?

No. it is not. It is acceptance. I accept that the sun will rise tomorrow. Really nothing I can do about it. I do not accept getting raped. Pretty simple shit.

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Post #: 36

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 12:08:00 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

Maybe sometimes. There have been times where I've fought back against something and my partner has let it go and later I find myself feeling disappointed. There have been times I've fought against something and my partner has let it go and it has been a huge relief. We recently did something that I did not want to do. I begged. I pleaded. He tied me up and did it while I continued to beg and plead. He didn't do it to make me grow. He did it because it turns him on and he wanted to get off. I didn't want to do it, because it hurts a whole whole lot. Being forced to do something almost instantly makes it hot for me, because it's the FORCING part that turns me on. Except what he did last weekend.

I do agree that when I see 'forced-bi' 'forced-feminization' I do see that more a long the lines of what you describe.

Again, at that point you were not "forced" to do anything. Would find yourself getting turned on if I forced you to eat some food that you actually abhor? I think not.

Please people stay on focus....You do have some of the most beautiful eyes on Cm.

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Post #: 37

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 12:21:09 PM

sublace

Posts: 201
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Dear InTonguesslave, Sincere thanks and compliments.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 38

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 12:36:43 PM

sublace

Posts: 201
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

... still force and against my will?

No. it is not. It is acceptance. I accept that the sun will rise tomorrow. Really nothing I can do about it. I do not accept getting raped. Pretty simple shit.

I itch to joke, but Domiguy - your words are profound. Thanks

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 39

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" - 3/25/2009 12:42:09 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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I believe there are three kinds of forced;

The fist… An act, a script, a scene, where both members know the wants and needs of the other and are accommodating.

The second…An act that is forced on the other but accepted willingly, even if disliked, because they feel acceptance is necessary to keep the relationship.

The third…An act that is forced without the agreement or acceptance of the other party and is against their will …a criminal offense.
Butch

(in reply to CatdeMedici)

Post #: 40

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