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RE: Miss Master - 3/30/2009 2:33:16 PM

Lockit

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LOL LadyPact... you called me dude once! I know you use it! lol I learned it in CO too! I worked with a lot of young people at this one place and a new guy called me dude as I was training him... whoa! Lil redhead...lol I told the others... he called me dude! They laughed... considering the ol lady of the bunch and explained it wasn't an insult... still to me it was! Within a month of my lil bitch... I was duding it too! lol

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Post #: 21

RE: Miss Master - 3/30/2009 2:56:25 PM

LadyHibiscus

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I learned it from hanging around the young folks... or watching too much Joss Whedon designed TV....

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Post #: 22

RE: Miss Master - 3/30/2009 5:08:55 PM

PeonForHer

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I wouldn't like being called master.

I think to be called 'master', Lockit, you'd need to be a bit taller. Sorry.

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Post #: 23

RE: Miss Master - 3/30/2009 5:21:42 PM

ShaktiSama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I've never heard of the degree of "Mistress of Arts/Science". I don't think I've met a woman who's announced she'd want such a degree, either.

Wrong once again, and further proof that English translations of Latin words are often very inferior. The degree is REALLY called the Magister Artium--"Master of Arts" is just a feeble bastardization. When given to a woman the degree must by definition be the MAGISTRA Artium; it cannot be otherwise, because in Latin the gendered division of the word is Magister/Magistra--and incidentally the word means "teacher", not "master".

As with Dominus/Domina, the Latin terms do not imply gender inferiority but simply express social realities. There is no ridiculous British connotation of whore-in-a-corset when the original term is used. Latin is actually a much less sexist language in many respects than English or ancient Greek.

Personally, I have never seen the insult involved in acknowledging the feminine gender of a subject, in English or any other language. But gendering academic competence automatically and ONLY masculine is offensive. Just as gendering dominance automatically and only masculine is offensive--perhaps more so.

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Post #: 24

RE: Miss Master - 3/30/2009 5:52:43 PM

BohemianGoddess

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I myself would not want to be called Master. Goddess or even Ma'am when appropriate is fine. I am not keen on the word Mistress and do wish that the words Dom and Domme were pronounced differently to set apart a male and a female.

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Post #: 25

RE: Miss Master - 3/30/2009 6:18:51 PM

PeonForHer

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Yes, but we have taken the word "master" from the Latin and made it our own. The Latin meaning no longer matters.

MA degree certificates say "Master of Arts", except at a few universities and the reason why it's rarely contentious as a degree title is because it implies mastery of an academic discipline amongst we modern-day, English-speaking people. If there's a word that's equivalent to 'mastery' that's derived from the word 'mistress', I haven't heard of it.

As for the "whore in a corset" connotation - if there is one - this would be an anglophone connotation, not a peculiarly British one. You have it in the USA too.

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Post #: 26

RE: Miss Master - 3/30/2009 6:24:02 PM

Andalusite

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"Master" of Arts/Sciences has nothing to do with gender, just like "Bachelor's Degree" has nothing to do with being an unmarried man. It's just a transliteration that has a meaning in English that isn't related to the original Latin.

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Post #: 27

RE: Miss Master - 3/30/2009 7:08:24 PM

ShaktiSama

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If by "making something our own" we make it more sexist and bastardize its meaning, I would prefer that it continue to belong to someone else.

I disagree entirely that the old Latin meaning of the words don't matter; that meaning is still very much in effect in the real world.

Having an MA degree in many subjects doesn't imply real "mastery" of anything; it simply confers the ability to teach, so long as you confine yourself to students below the University level. You are not considered a "master" in any genuine sense of the word--i.e., a person who has really mastered the academic discipline as a whole--until you have the Philosophiae Doctor. (Philosophiae Doctrix, for the gals.)

I'll skip the rap on "baccalaureus", because in all honesty it translates roughly as "peon' in medieval Latin, and it seems that any jokes along those lines would be in poor taste right about now.

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Post #: 28

RE: Miss Master - 3/30/2009 7:11:23 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

"Master" of Arts/Sciences has nothing to do with gender, just like "Bachelor's Degree" has nothing to do with being an unmarried man. It's just a transliteration that has a meaning in English that isn't related to the original Latin.

I thought I'd just said that.

I looked up "bachelor" in relation to degrees ages ago when I took mine. Uncertain derivation, but one source had it that it was a corruption of a French phrase, "bay challenor" - a young knight who rode at the back in a charge. So, quite impressive really.

I once said on this forum that "fucking", many years ago, meant "putting seeds into holes". (A 1970s court-case involving a very, very old farmer and an affronted young policeman in the NE of England highlighted the issue.) Original meanings of words are neither here nor there. "Fucking" just does mean something else nowadays and there's no point in anyone trying to assert that it 'should' mean what it used to mean.

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Post #: 29

RE: Miss Master - 3/30/2009 7:23:47 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

If by "making something our own" we make it more sexist and bastardize its meaning, I would prefer that it continue to belong to someone else. I disagree entirely that the old Latin meaning of the words don't matter; that meaning is still very much in effect in the real world.

Having an MA degree in many subjects doesn't imply real "mastery" of anything; it simply confers the ability to teach, so long as you confine yourself to students below the University level. You are not considered a "master" in any genuine sense of the word--i.e., a person who has really mastered the academic discipline as a whole--until you have the Philosophiae Doctor. (Philosophiae Doctrix, for the gals.)

I'll skip the rap on "baccalaureus", because in all honesty it translates roughly as "peon' in medieval Latin, and it seems that any jokes along those lines would be in poor taste right about now.

While people may object to the word "master", I think they're less concerned about "mastery". For some reason, that letter "y" takes all the gender-grief out of the issue. I've met very few academics in the real world who care, or even know, about the original meaning of 'master', I have to say.

You're most welcome to make jokes about the word "baccalaureus" and any relationship of that word to "peon". For one thing, it'll make a welcome change from the usual "pee on" quips; for another, I freely admit that "PeonForHer" is a crap nickname and well worth kicking around anyway.

Actually, I read that "Doctor" roughly translates as "teacher", as well. But who the hell cares? To me, it just means "I may be hopeless in a rich variety of ways, but I'm not fackin stupid, sunshine."

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Post #: 30

RE: Miss Master - 3/30/2009 8:54:59 PM

asianchloe

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I agree. I don't think "Master" is gender-neutral and in this particular case, subbie wants to call you Master because to him, that word signifies greater dominance than Mistress. I wouldn't go for it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

Don't like it. The connotation is that male is automatically superior to female and that by dominating someone I am becoming an honorary man. I say no thanks to that, unless I'm actually roleplaying a male at the time. :P

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

Post #: 31

RE: Miss Master - 3/30/2009 8:59:23 PM

asianchloe

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I speak French and fiance and fiancee are pronounced the same, in French and in English. In English Dom and Domme are pronounced the same but in French, they are pronounced slightly differently. I assume LadyLupine is speaking about English pronunciations by the comparison but I don't know how one would pronounce fiance differently than fiancee.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLupineNYC
"Dom" and "Domme" are pronounced exactly the same (unlike 'fiance' and 'fiancee').

(in reply to LadyLupineNYC)

Post #: 32

RE: Miss Master - 3/30/2009 9:05:54 PM

asianchloe

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That is a different definition (the topic is on the meaning that refers to head of household, historically Master/Mistress, or a title given to someone who controls others), while your example refers to a term used to indicate high skill or expertise.

I am the master of my slaves vs. I have mastered French cooking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I've never heard of the degree of "Mistress of Arts/Science". I don't think I've met a woman who's announced she'd want such a degree, either.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 33

RE: Miss Master - 3/30/2009 9:25:09 PM

asianchloe

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There is a word equivalent to 'mastery' that corresponds to mistress (maîtresse).

The word is Maîtrise (used as we would use Master's academically: maîtrise ès arts ("Mistress of Arts"), maîtrise ès sciences ("Mistress of Sciences"), maîtrise en droit ("Mistress of Law").

Clearly, you haven't heard of it since you don't seem to have much intellectual curiosity or respect for linguistics ("latin meaning no longer matters"?) Latin may no longer be spoken; it may no longer be understood (by many), but only those who revel in their ignorance would think it "no longer matters".

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
If there's a word that's equivalent to 'mastery' that's derived from the word 'mistress', I haven't heard of it.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 34

RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 1:17:05 AM

Kita

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Joined: 1/11/2009
From: Lincoln, NE
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I wouldn't have any problem being called Sir or Master as long as somebody knows that I am female. In a textual environment I will correct only for accuracy since otherwise I don't mind. My gender and feelings toward my gender varies by context so I feel less comfortable having overly female/feminine words used for me than otherwise. Even so, I've not had anyone systematically call me Sir nor have I been in a relationship where I was called Master. With beeble I've always been Mistress (but that is reserved for only people with whom I am involved as I don't like the casual use.) I would not like to be called Goddess or Queen or any of those over-the-top honorifics, however.

Something similar is being called Daddy/Daddi (in my preference it'd be by a femsub though I've had close friendships where boys have called me Mommy.) I've not had a relationship where that was the dynamic but it's something I like to think about.

I think I just come from a different 'place' with this subject because the whole 'what is masculine/feminine' thing is subjective to different aspects of who I am, who I'm with and what I'm doing at the time. There's one term that fits regardless, though, and that is that I am beeble's Owner.

-Kita-

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Post #: 35

RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 1:46:22 AM

Kita

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Joined: 1/11/2009
From: Lincoln, NE
Status: offline

quote:

LadyLupineNYC said:
I find the use of phrases like 'my Mistress' more of an issue since they suggest ownership of the S-type.

I'm curious how you propose such a relationship be addressed otherwise. I think it would be a fairly tedious and distancing dance to always try to define a relationship in terms that refrain from referring to each other as "my" so-and-so. Are they supposed to say "the one to whom I belong" or something of that nature?

I am fairly certain my pet does not see me as his 'property' but, as we are in a relationship, I am as much his as he is mine. I chose him to be mine and he gave himself to me. I guess I just focus more on the term after 'my' rather than being hung up on the fact that a submissive uses a word that may imply possession (since we all say things like "my friend" and "my boss" which mean nothing of possession, but rather association.)

Relatedly, do you find it offensive if a dominant calls you 'my friend' or is purely reserved for s-types? How about the use of "m'lady"?

Just curious,
-Kita-

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Post #: 36

RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 1:56:03 AM

MadameHcalls

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I have a female friend who sometimes uses "dude," at me and other females, but I think a lot of people have come to use it more as an exclamation, like "Dude! Where's my car?!," not even considering "dude," to be addressing the listener.

I catch myself occasionally saying "you guys," to females, which is just wrong. And there's no excuse for it, at I was raised in TX, not the Bronx, and have a perfectly good y'all, at my disposal.

MadameMarque, accidentally posting as MadameH

< Message edited by MadameHcalls -- 3/31/2009 2:11:32 AM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 2:10:21 AM

MadameHcalls

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Joined: 12/9/2008
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Normally, I'm reflexively adverse to anything that suggests male=dominant and female=submissive. If that's why someone calls a female, "Master," I would not care for it.

I used to know a dominant who sometimes went by Master, in front of her name, though she was feminine, and not gender bending or roleplaying male, not even androgyneous. And I never questioned why I rather liked it, till now, but I think it's because to me, it suggests something about, that the gender doesn't matter. That is the dominant, the owner, and their gender doesn't figure in that equation.

MadameMarque, accidentally posting as MadameH

< Message edited by MadameHcalls -- 3/31/2009 2:12:15 AM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 3:12:41 AM

beeble

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quote:

PeonForHer wrote: . . . . Though the OED isn't any authority, Beeble, as you once pointed out

Smiley noted but the O.E.D. reports all usages and pronunciations that it finds in common use. If it says that two words are pronounced the same, that means that no significant group of people believes that they're pronounced differently.

beeble.

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Post #: 39

RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 3:34:31 AM

beeble

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From: UK
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quote:

ShaktiSama wrote:
Wrong once again, and further proof that English translations of Latin words are often very inferior. The degree is REALLY called the Magister Artium--"Master of Arts" is just a feeble bastardization. When given to a woman the degree must by definition be the MAGISTRA Artium; it cannot be otherwise, because in Latin the gendered division of the word is Magister/Magistra--and incidentally the word means "teacher", not "master".

Actually, the translation's just fine, though a little archaic. It's not in common usage any more, but the word `master' also means `school teacher'; this usage continues in some of the English public schools.*

In my father's day, one was taught Latin by the Latin master, geography by the geography master and so on. In my school, the teacher responsible for taking the attendence register for a particular group of pupils each morning was known as the `form master', though `form teacher' was also commonly used. I don't recall `form mistress' having been used for women performing that role: I think they were always `form teachers'.

beeble.

* Which would be called a `private school' anywhere else. In the UK, schools run by the government are called `state schools' and schools run by other organizations are `independent'. An independent school that is open to essentially anyone (subject to being able to afford the fees and, perhaps, pass an entrance exam) is a `public school' and one to which entrance is restricted to a certain group of people is a `private school.' For example, a school run by a company only for its employees' children would be a private school; I don't think there are many of them left, now.

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Kita's owned slutpet.

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Post #: 40

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