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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 3:42:05 AM   
PeonForHer


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Smiley noted but the O.E.D. reports all usages and pronunciations that it finds in common use.  If it says that two words are pronounced the same, that means that no significant group of people believes that they're pronounced differently.

I know.  Just kidding.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 3/31/2009 3:49:18 AM >


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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 4:15:45 AM   
beeble


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quote:

asianchloe wrote:
There is a word equivalent to 'mastery' that corresponds to mistress (maîtresse). [...] Clearly, you haven't heard of it since you don't seem to have much intellectual curiosity or respect for linguistics

Well, the O.E.D. hasn't heard of it, either, as a word in English, and you can hardly accuse its editors of having a lack of intellectual curiosity and respect for linguistics.  The closest they have is the verb `maitrise', meaning to conquer or achieve mastery over (in the sense of `the Normans maitrised the English in 1066' but not `I maitrised French cooking', unless you're being very figurative).

quote:

The word is Maîtrise (used as we would use Master's academically: maîtrise ès arts ("Mistress of Arts"), maîtrise ès sciences ("Mistress of Sciences"), maîtrise en droit ("Mistress of Law").

I don't think so, though my French is rusty.  My reading of the French Wikipedia article is that the name of the degree is `maîtrise ès/en arts' regardless of whether it is presented to a man or a woman.  Likewise, the article on maîtrise says that the name of the French degree comes from the English master's degree and that somebody who has been awarded a maîtrise has the title `maître'.  Why do you say that `maîtrise' comes specifically from `maîtresse' rather than `maître'?

By the way, is the word `ès' used anywhere else in French?

beeble.


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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 4:21:05 AM   
Kita


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quote:

MadameHcalls (MadameMarque)
said:
Normally, I'm reflexively adverse to anything that suggests male=dominant and female=submissive.  If that's why someone calls a female, "Master," I would not care for it.

I, as a female, could be a Master Chef, I could choose to master the single tail, or I could decide that I wish to be referred to as "Master." Doing so makes me no more Dominant or male. Words (especially those applied as labels) are defined, applied and embraced differently by each of us.

-Kita-


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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 4:38:48 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: asianchloe

There is a word equivalent to 'mastery' that corresponds to mistress (maîtresse).

The word is Maîtrise (used as we would use Master's academically: maîtrise ès arts ("Mistress of Arts"), maîtrise ès sciences ("Mistress of Sciences"), maîtrise en droit ("Mistress of Law").

Clearly, you haven't heard of it since you don't seem to have much intellectual curiosity or respect for linguistics ("latin meaning no longer matters"?) Latin may no longer be spoken; it may no longer be understood (by many), but only those who revel in their ignorance would think it "no longer matters".




quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
If there's a word that's equivalent to 'mastery' that's derived from the word 'mistress', I haven't heard of it.




I like to think I've got a wee bit of intellectual curiosity, Chloe, especially regarding matters surrounding politics, philosophy and the social sciences as these are taught to certain MA students in the UK - on account of this is part of what I do for a living. 

When I say that the Latin meaning of "master" no longer matters, this is the practical truth.  It doesn't matter to most of these academics (people whose job it is to 'revel in their ignorance'?) nor, much more importantly, does it matter in wider society.  The reason it doesn't matter is because the word has now acquired a different meaning in English and it's a forlorn task to try to reassert a now defunct meaning to a word.

You say that 'Maîtrise' is 'the' word that is equivalent to 'mastery' but which is derived from 'mistress'.  However, this isn't true.  ''Maîtrise', of course, is French and doesn't derive from 'mistress' or any other English word.  It isn't - according to my copy of the OED, anyway - in usage in English.  There might be equivalent words in German, Russian, Swahili or many other languages - so why refer to 'maîtrise' as 'the' word? 

There has been a peculiar reverence for both French and Latin amongst certain English people that stretches back to the Norman conquest.  This is a reverence to which you might want to apply whatever intellectual curiosity you yourself have - in terms of class bias.





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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 7:56:35 AM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


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I reject the option of being called a master for personal reasons...  Feeling and thinking of a man, especially since we're not discussing degrees attained.    I want femininity associated with my name by anyone who addresses me.  For that reason, even as I dislike being called a Mistress, I would prefer it to Master.   Honorifics that depict me as possibly a male dominant, are not for me.    M

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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 8:31:38 AM   
asianchloe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

Well, the O.E.D. hasn't heard of it, either, as a word in English, and you can hardly accuse its editors of having a lack of intellectual curiosity and respect for linguistics.



I'd hardly equate the editors of O.E.D. with PeonForHer, the poster to whom I responded. Whether or not the editors had heard of maitrise, I don't think they would list other languages in the Oxford ENGLISH Dictionary. My comment about lack of intellectual curiosity was clarified at the end of my entire post, which you truncated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble

the name of the degree is `maîtrise ès/en arts' regardless of whether it is presented to a man or a woman.


I agree. I was saying that to master (in french) is gendered and that Maitrise is closer to Maitresse in spelling and pronunciation since the original poster said something to the effect of, the origin of words doesn't matter (and in another post said there was no such thing as a Mistress (feminization of the word) of Arts. One can't reason that origin doesn't matter when it contradicts his argument than use origin (or lack thereof, since he had never heard of it) to support that same argument.

In short, Maitrise is feminine, so if one insists on gendered terms, it would translate as "Mistress" of Arts. I'm being silly here since I agree that mastery of something in non-gendered and the distinction between Master/Mistress has different historical roots.


quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble
By the way, is the word `ès' used anywhere else in French?


According to this, `ès' is used in other instances but only in degrees. e,g, "doctorat ès lettres". I haven't seen that contraction for the term "in the" in general usage. Hope this helps.

http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/g/es.htm

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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 8:41:12 AM   
asianchloe


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I wouldn't have a problem with Master if it refers to (again, as I said) skill or expertise, such as calling me a Master Chef. (You will see in my profile, I consider myself an expert at gourmet cooking and have in the past been a professional chef).

However, I do NOT consider myself a master of domination (or any particular tool thereof) so I don't find it appropriate to call me a Master Whipper, Master Tormentor, etc. For ME, and I do not speak for others, a title such as Mistress is used to denote my higher status in the household/in the scene, and for that reason, calling me Master would be applying masculine attributes (especially if the scene involved a male Dom, and in that case, I think Master and Mistress (as words) are equal in status and I am not less "commanding" because I am a woman.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kita

Words (especially those applied as labels) are defined, applied and embraced differently by each of us.
-Kita-



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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 10:13:12 AM   
ShaktiSama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
While people may object to the word "master", I think they're less concerned about "mastery".  For some reason, that letter "y" takes all the gender-grief out of the issue.


Taking a word from strongly gendered to a neuter or plural form often does.  "Baccalaureus" is a neuter noun applied to the degree rather than the person for that reason, I suspect.  "Mastery" probably works because it is an abstract noun--abstracts in English are neuter, and so do not "belong" to one gender and exclude others.

Oddly enough, in Latin, abstract nouns are almost always feminine, which gives you some hilarious transitions.  Personal favorites are things like "puer" ("boy") to "pueritas" ("boyishness").  Or "man" ("vir") to "manliness" ("virtus").  You're never more feminine, in other words, than when you go from simply being a man to worrying about manliness. 

As to the origin of "baccalarius"--it comes to us via medieval Latin and was used most often to describe a knight who was either too young or too impoverished/ unskilled to command his own retinue.  A "bachelor knight", in other words, had to serve as someone else's peon.    This is why it was used to confer the first tier of university education.

There's also apparently a small pun involved in changing the name of the degree from "baccalarius/a" to "baccalaureus".  A "bacca laureus" would be a berry from the laurel tree (laurel being the traditional victory wreathe in the Classical period).  "Here kid--you haven't won the whole crown, but you can have a berry..."




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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 12:00:44 PM   
RumpusParable


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SomethingCatchy

My boy asked if he could call me 'master' instead of 'mistess' because "It sounds more commanding and less like cheating on your wife." To me, 'master' is gender neutral, even though some insist that there is a difference between the two words.

It got me thinking. How many of you ladies have been called master at some point (or more than sometimes, if it's your thing)?


Personally, I'm just not a huge fan of "Mistress" because it's over-used and I'm genderqueer in a female body, so I am always assumed to be a "girl" when I'm not binary-gendered.  Master, though, is masculine (or masculine-assumed, by our language rules of "if it's not otherwise indicated...") and doesn't fit either...  So I allow and sometimes use mistress because others do and I'm female sexed... I prefer other female indicator names (specifically, Miss or Domina) if/when I have to have one of some sort or it's just more convenient.

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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 2:01:14 PM   
PeonForHer


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I'd hardly equate the editors of O.E.D. with PeonForHer, the poster to whom I responded.

Indeed I shouldn't be equated with the OED, Chloe, because I presented an argument that you failed to understand and/or deliberately ignored. Someone who is truly 'intellectually curious', as you imply you are, would have asked for clarification.

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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 3:19:27 PM   
PeonForHer


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My OED doesn't mention 'peon' in relation to 'bachelor', though it does use terms such as 'young' and 'novice'. But, what the hell - I'll accept 'peon'. I only think: Imagine all the work one does for a degree only to end up as a 'peon'. And it really is a rubbish nickname, too.

[The following not specifically addressed to yourself - just some meandering thoughts]

One of the greatest, but ultimately most useless, attempts at reviving an original meaning was that of the word "Man". In the oldest sense it meant 'person' and was applied to both genders and to children as well as adults. A werman was a male and a wyfman a female.

It was argued by those in many disciplines that this 'original meaning' legitimised the continued use of "Man" to refer to "people". However, of course, lots of others began to smell a rat. It was noticed that those who promoted the continued use of "Man" held generally sexist opinions on most matters. Their argument was similar, though perhaps a bit less crude, to that of those who asserted that the origin of certain words that are now considered racist was not offensive, therefore fine still to be used today. (I've heard this sort of argument often with regard to the word 'wog' here in the UK.)

But there's more to this than mere suspicion of the reactionary tendencies of those who promote 'original, inoffensive use of now-offensive terms'. The argument that "original use doesn't matter, present-day use is what counts" usually - though not always - wins the day. 'Man' simply carries too many overtones, for too many people, of "maleness' in the English-speaking world.  That modern-day meaning of it has dug itself too deep into the collective consciousness. (All this, incidentally, is at root why the word "womyn" was once coined, though failed to catch on in wider society.)

In essence, then, I maintain that the owners of words are their users, not their originators. By 'users' I mean both those who say the words and those who hear them. 'Master' is going to imply maleness for most people and it would take an awful lot of effort by an awful lot of people to change that in wider society.  However, what 'Master' might imply for two people - say, a domme and a sub, privately, is an entirely different matter. If it works for them, it works for them, and that's that. Personally, I get a lovely little sub-shiver out of using the word "Ma'am" but I've long since given up trying to argue some women into the complementary domme-shiver when they hear the same word.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 3/31/2009 3:20:27 PM >


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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 3:33:36 PM   
beeble


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quote:

beeble wrote: Well, the O.E.D. hasn't heard of [maîtrise], either, as a word in English, and you can hardly accuse its editors of having a lack of intellectual curiosity and respect for linguistics.
asianchloe wrote: I'd hardly equate the editors of O.E.D. with PeonForHer, the poster to whom I responded. Whether or not the editors had heard of maitrise, I don't think they would list other languages in the Oxford ENGLISH Dictionary.

I think it was implicit, when PFH asked, in English on a largely English-language website, if there was a feminine version of `mastery', he was asking for an English feminine version.  While it's interesting to know whether other languages have such a word, it's slightly beside the point.

quote:

I was saying that to master (in french) is gendered...

Verbs aren't gendered at all.  I assume that you mean that the noun `mastery/mastership' is gendered.  But all French nouns are gendered.

quote:

... and that Maitrise is closer to Maitresse in spelling and pronunciation...

I'm not convinced by that.  OK, it's closer in pronunciation but surely the root is maître + -iser, in the same way that `maîtresse' is maître + esse.  I grant that the noun `maîtrise' is feminine but isn't it a standard form that -ise nouns from -iser verbs are feminine (in the same way that nouns ending -tion are usually feminine)?

quote:

... since the original poster said something to the effect of, the origin of words doesn't matter (and in another post said there was no such thing as a Mistress (feminization of the word) of Arts.

But a maîtrise en arts is not a `mistress of arts'.

quote:

In short, Maitrise is feminine, so if one insists on gendered terms, it would translate as "Mistress" of Arts.

The fact that it's a feminine noun doesn't connote `mistress' any more than `pomme' being a feminine noun connotes a female apple: all nouns in French have a gender and the only options are masculine and feminine.  A maîtresse en arts would be a `mistress of arts' but there's no such thing.

quote:

I'm being silly here

Quite.

quote:

Hope this helps. http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/g/es.htm

Very much so -- merci!

beeble.

[edited to fix quoting]


< Message edited by beeble -- 3/31/2009 3:34:43 PM >


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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 4:07:54 PM   
RedMagic1


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1. "Magister" has various translations, which boil down to "male person in charge of something."  "Magister ludi" translates to "teacher."  Magister by itself does not.

2. Maitrise is derived from maitre.  (Circonflexes cost extra, so I'll leave them off.)  Maitriser is derived from maitrise.  I presume maitriser is the "feminine" word for "to master" that asianchloe was referring to.  Beeble is of course correct that verbs are ungendered in French.  Also, I'm not convinced by the "sounds like" argument, because this make-a-verb-via-epenthesis thing from maitre to maitriser (instead of, e.g., maitrerer) appears to have occurred completely independently from the existence of maitresse.

3. To respond to the OP in a not-totally-dorky way.... SomethingCatchy, did you ask him, "Why do you want to do that? ... (wait for answer) ... Hmm, what do you mean by that?"  Make him go into his motivations in some detail.  This might not be a male/female thing at all, but a "BDSM isn't about sex thing."  Words like "Mistress" or even "My Lady" connote an object of sexual desire.  Unless he's bi, a word like "Master" connotes someone he respects and is controlled by, but does not lust after.  The hit I got after reading your post was that he wanted to distance himself from his own sexual urges, and make the relationship more about serving you.

Point being, find out what he really wants, not just that one line he told you, and work with that, whether you have him call you "Master" or anything else.


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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 6:24:04 PM   
LovingMistress45


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I do love the way these threads take on a life unrelated to the original posting.  I would not want to be addressed as Master.  Saying I am a master of a skill is fine.  However as an address, to me it is male gendered.  I am not male and I prefer Mistress (if by one that is mine) or Ma'am.  I don't like Miss.  I seldom use Domme because of the mispronunciation. In describing myself I tend to say I am a female dominant.

I would like to note that when looking up mistress there are several definitions most having to do with ownership, authority, mastery and such. The reference to a woman having a sexual relationship with a married man is the last one.

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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 8:16:17 PM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LovingMistress45
I do love the way these threads take on a life unrelated to the original posting.
I know...   Being a Merriam webster devotee, I kept asking self, what the hell is O.E.D.?    Than thought Peon maybe would refer to Oxford english, and laughed at myself.    M

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RE: Miss Master - 3/31/2009 9:18:49 PM   
MadameMarque


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kita

quote:

MadameHcalls (MadameMarque)
said:
Normally, I'm reflexively adverse to anything that suggests male=dominant and female=submissive.  If that's why someone calls a female, "Master," I would not care for it.

I, as a female, could be a Master Chef, I could choose to master the single tail, or I could decide that I wish to be referred to as "Master." Doing so makes me no more Dominant or male. Words (especially those applied as labels) are defined, applied and embraced differently by each of us.

-Kita-



Agreed.  As I thought my post, in context, implied:

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameHcalls

Normally, I'm reflexively adverse to anything that suggests male=dominant and female=submissive.  If that's why someone calls a female, "Master," I would not care for it.

I used to know a dominant who sometimes went by Master, in front of her name, though she was feminine, and not gender bending or roleplaying male, not even androgyneous.  And I never questioned why I rather liked it, till now, but I think it's because to me, it suggests something about, that the gender doesn't matter.  That is the dominant, the owner, and their gender doesn't figure in that equation.


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