RE: Can You Believe It?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Can You Believe It?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Can You Believe It?

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 10:43:04 AM

CruelNUnsual

Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sappatoti

Without having read any of Dr. Geisler's works, I'd agree with him that it would take a lot more faith to be an atheist.

Back when Pintos, Vegas, and Gremlins ruled college campus parking lots I was studying physics. It's a great scientific discipline that goes to lengths in observing how things act and react. But, it could never tell anyone why. Sure, physicists could hypothesize on the "why" but as to producing results to back those hypotheses up, well... the discipline just isn't quite there yet. Observing and hypothesizing on "cause and effect" is helpful, but only one part of the equation of understanding life.

That's where my other studies of philosophy and religion came in. Those studies provided the change in mindset that allowed me to open my curiosity towards thinking in non-empirical disciplines. There is no right or wrong way of philosophizing; only that you let your mind go and simply think. With lots of thought... aided by copious amounts of the nearby campus pub's offerings... I concluded that there is some higher, as yet undefined reason... or power... or something that's at work here.

Maybe studying the quantum side of things might bring more empirical, observable data to go towards answering the question of "why." But I also think that the more scientists start studying quantum relationships, an exponentially larger number of unknowns will be uncovered, leading to even more questions of "why."

For me, anyway, faith that something more than us exists keeps me going.

You immediately stack the deck by assuming there has to be a "why", because that implies a purpose. It doesnt require the least bit of faith to be an atheist, all it requires is not looking for things that are unneccesary.

(in reply to sappatoti)

Profile

Post #: 21

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 10:48:03 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

Rule, I can't figure you out! You always seem so mean, do you mean to be mean? Or does it mean you just don't like me?

Anyway, those are not my statements (that you seemed to attribute to me).

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to Rule)

Profile

Post #: 22

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 10:54:47 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: sappatoti

Without having read any of Dr. Geisler's works, I'd agree with him that it would take a lot more faith to be an atheist.

Back when Pintos, Vegas, and Gremlins ruled college campus parking lots I was studying physics. It's a great scientific discipline that goes to lengths in observing how things act and react. But, it could never tell anyone why. Sure, physicists could hypothesize on the "why" but as to producing results to back those hypotheses up, well... the discipline just isn't quite there yet. Observing and hypothesizing on "cause and effect" is helpful, but only one part of the equation of understanding life.

That's where my other studies of philosophy and religion came in. Those studies provided the change in mindset that allowed me to open my curiosity towards thinking in non-empirical disciplines. There is no right or wrong way of philosophizing; only that you let your mind go and simply think. With lots of thought... aided by copious amounts of the nearby campus pub's offerings... I concluded that there is some higher, as yet undefined reason... or power... or something that's at work here.

Maybe studying the quantum side of things might bring more empirical, observable data to go towards answering the question of "why." But I also think that the more scientists start studying quantum relationships, an exponentially larger number of unknowns will be uncovered, leading to even more questions of "why."

For me, anyway, faith that something more than us exists keeps me going.

You immediately stack the deck by assuming there has to be a "why", because that implies a purpose. It doesnt require the least bit of faith to be an atheist, all it requires is not looking for things that are unneccesary.

I think the argument, or supposition is (again badly paraphrased by me), in order to argue against God, religion, you must first acknowledge their possible existence. Again with the binary--things are or are not, and in the case of the latter, you can proffer they are not only by first letting in the possibility that they are and then having faith that they are not. Oy.

Agnostics, it seems to me, are the ones who are never moved to look. If they can actually do that. Altho I don't believe (haha) that this is the only path to agnosticism.

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to CruelNUnsual)

Profile

Post #: 23

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 10:55:00 AM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

I am not a biblical believer. As we skeptics tend to say, "We are spiritual creatures."

Problems with the new testament. Not very forward thinking. When Jesus fed the masses they omitted the presence of women and children in the description as there was no account for anything but the men.. No foresight to the future value of women.

Jesus simply fulfilled the prophecies of that time... That is why he was not accepted by the Jews who found him and his group to be horribly rebelious as well as heretics.

If we want to adopt the notion that worshipping false idols is a sin, then who is the dude hangin around most churches supposed to be? He bears no likeness whatsoever to that of The "J" dude whatsoever.

How is it remotely possible that Jesus was surprised by being betrayed by Judas? Was his omnipotence on the blink?

There are many bibles. We happen to be privvy to the St constatine version. Books were discarded based upon the time frame written as well as content.

Just a few thoughts off the top o' the noggin.

It's harder to question than believe.

_____________________________

(in reply to subtee)

Profile

Post #: 24

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 10:55:38 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's true: each person has their own answer, if they have asked themselves the question.

Hi kittin, do you think most or some don't ask themselves?

I can't speak for others: but many of the strong believers (and disbelievers, for that matter) I have talked to seem to come from a place of absolute certainty that shows me they have not really asked themselves the question. How else can one be so absolutely certain one way or another?

I get faith, I understand it: it's irrational, but I respect those that have it. What I don't get is how seemingly intelligent people can believe in God without an iota of doubt. I read somewhere that these people had built a wall within their own minds that allowed them to have this irrationality collaborate with their pragmatic side.

I also don't understand how people think that religion is godlike, and why there is this need to have one's life and morality dictated by a supreme being. Religion is wonderful for inspiring art and beauty (see: the temples, the cathedrals, the mosques, the music, the paintings); but why would God, an eternal being, care whether we committed adultery or killed ourselves? Wouldn't this eternal being be so far above human considerations that it would have absolutely no concern with our ant-like existence? Which leads me to my biggest dismay at true believers: why is God necessarily seen as a creator? Why can't God exist far outside of our realm? Is this really such a scary thought, and are we so terrified of our fellow human beings that we need to think there is a creature that will look after us in death?

My belief is that we will never know the answer - and it's very well that way.

_____________________________

(in reply to subtee)

Profile

Post #: 25

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:01:58 AM

kidwithknife

Posts: 193
Joined: 9/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
I do believe that religion be taught, not just christianity but all religions and spirituality just as much as I believe science should, or sexual health or pshe. I don't believe it should be done so to indoctrinate.

I'd agree. But I don't think it should be taught in science classes. I'd agree with Rowan Williams that creationism/Intelligent Design is a category mistake.

quote:

Do I believe in the inerrancy of biblical writings? Yes. But I don't believe that they are understood and therefore, misinterpreted.

Full inerrancy or spirtual inerrancy? Apart from anything else, I don't think the Bible itself actually makes any claims to full inerrancy.

_____________________________

We went to see the fall of Rome - I thought it would please us
To watch how the mighty go in a blaze of hubris
But I just stood there hypnotised by all the beautiful madness

(New Model Army, Into the Wind)

(in reply to RCdc)

Profile

Post #: 26

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:07:57 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I do not believe that the way one answers 'Is there a God' defines a life. To me, that is utter bullshit.

the.dark.

Would you want to expound?

I don't believe belief or non belief, which is still a belief, defines a person. For example, if you believe in the above statement, that means you can define me. I would challenge you to do so.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to subtee)

Profile

Post #: 27

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:12:50 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kidwithknife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
I do believe that religion be taught, not just christianity but all religions and spirituality just as much as I believe science should, or sexual health or pshe. I don't believe it should be done so to indoctrinate.
I'd agree. But I don't think it should be taught in science classes. I'd agree with Rowan Williams that creationism/Intelligent Design is a category mistake.

quote:

Do I believe in the inerrancy of biblical writings? Yes. But I don't believe that they are understood and therefore, misinterpreted.

Full inerrancy or spirtual inerrancy? Apart from anything else, I don't think the Bible itself actually makes any claims to full inerrancy.

Hello Kidwithknife, are you are well?

For the first, total agreement with you. I should have added that caveat.
For the second. Both. And you are correct, the bible never made that claim.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to kidwithknife)

Profile

Post #: 28

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:13:12 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

oh god i'm an idiot. I didn't even think of it as coming from a 3rd party

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to RCdc)

Profile

Post #: 29

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:14:28 AM

outlier

Posts: 1111
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline

Tell them you are going to stay home and read "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman.

Here is a link to a "Godless" NPR interview with him.(insert tougue in cheek smiley here)

Wiki:
"Bart D. Ehrman is an American New Testament scholar and textual critic of early
Christianity. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor and Chair of the
Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
He has written about how the original New Testament texts were frequently altered
by scribes for a variety of reasons, and argues that these alterations affect the
interpretation of the texts."

His theory oversimplified is that there was no Kinkos at the time of the scriptures.
Everyone who copied and recopied and recopied them had the chance to change
them however slightly, etc etc. The difference is he has the scholarship to back it up.
Including the ability to read several of the original languages of the scriptures.

_____________________________

Avatar from xkcd.com

"A happy sex life may take years to achieve, but it’s worth it in the long run.
Worth the time, the thought - or rather, the thoughtfulness - and, often,
the waiting." Pete Seeger

(in reply to subtee)

Profile

Post #: 30

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:15:20 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

You are not an idiot tee, well that's how I feel anyhoo.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to subtee)

Profile

Post #: 31

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:16:40 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I do not believe that the way one answers 'Is there a God' defines a life. To me, that is utter bullshit.

the.dark.

Would you want to expound?

I don't believe belief or non belief, which is still a belief, defines a person. For example, if you believe in the above statement, that means you can define me. I would challenge you to do so.

the.dark.

Hi Dark - subtee makes a good point, which is that how an individual tackles these questions is very revelatory about their state of mind and the way they address life in general, precisely because they have never been answered. To me, anyway, how someone approaches religious and/or spiritual beliefs is very telling about them as a person.

_____________________________

(in reply to RCdc)

Profile

Post #: 32

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:20:04 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

What I should have explained is that to me the asking, contemplating and answering (or not) of the question "is there a god" to ourselves and for ourselves might be self defining...

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to RCdc)

Profile

Post #: 33

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:24:31 AM

CruelNUnsual

Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: sappatoti

Without having read any of Dr. Geisler's works, I'd agree with him that it would take a lot more faith to be an atheist.

Back when Pintos, Vegas, and Gremlins ruled college campus parking lots I was studying physics. It's a great scientific discipline that goes to lengths in observing how things act and react. But, it could never tell anyone why. Sure, physicists could hypothesize on the "why" but as to producing results to back those hypotheses up, well... the discipline just isn't quite there yet. Observing and hypothesizing on "cause and effect" is helpful, but only one part of the equation of understanding life.

That's where my other studies of philosophy and religion came in. Those studies provided the change in mindset that allowed me to open my curiosity towards thinking in non-empirical disciplines. There is no right or wrong way of philosophizing; only that you let your mind go and simply think. With lots of thought... aided by copious amounts of the nearby campus pub's offerings... I concluded that there is some higher, as yet undefined reason... or power... or something that's at work here.

Maybe studying the quantum side of things might bring more empirical, observable data to go towards answering the question of "why." But I also think that the more scientists start studying quantum relationships, an exponentially larger number of unknowns will be uncovered, leading to even more questions of "why."

For me, anyway, faith that something more than us exists keeps me going.

You immediately stack the deck by assuming there has to be a "why", because that implies a purpose. It doesnt require the least bit of faith to be an atheist, all it requires is not looking for things that are unneccesary.

I think the argument, or supposition is (again badly paraphrased by me), in order to argue against God, religion, you must first acknowledge their possible existence. Again with the binary--things are or are not, and in the case of the latter, you can proffer they are not only by first letting in the possibility that they are and then having faith that they are not. Oy.

Agnostics, it seems to me, are the ones who are never moved to look. If they can actually do that. Altho I don't believe (haha) that this is the only path to agnosticism.

Anyone with an open mind has to acknowledge the possibility that something may exist, and it is impossible to disprove the existence of something...you just may not have found it yet.

However once one looks for evidence that something exists and none can be found (despite millenia for someone to find that evidence) and that there is no indirect evidence that the existence of something is necessary , it is fallacious to say that faith (a belief in something without proof or material evidence) is required to conclude that something doesnt exist.

Theists play the "faith" card to lower the level of logical inquiry to their own illogical conclusions.

(in reply to subtee)

Profile

Post #: 34

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:32:31 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

Hi subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
Rule, I can't figure you out!

I am.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
You always seem so mean, do you mean to be mean?

I am never mean. I do am extremely objective. However, I do have a cold and scarcely three hours deadline to submit my income taxation form.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
Or does it mean you just don't like me?

On the contrary. I do have a positive association with your nick.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
Anyway, those are not my statements (that you seemed to attribute to me).

I responded mostly to that near-octagenarian.

(in reply to subtee)

Profile

Post #: 35

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:35:38 AM

outlier

Posts: 1111
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

However once one looks for evidence that something exists and none can be found (despite millenia for someone to find that evidence) and that there is no indirect evidence that the existence of something is necessary , it is fallacious to say that faith (a belief in something without proof or material evidence) is required to conclude that something doesnt exist.

Theists play the "faith" card to lower the level of logical inquiry to their own illogical conclusions.

The other thing that I would add to this is that redefining common terms is as old as argument
and should always be greeting with skepticism.

_____________________________

Avatar from xkcd.com

"A happy sex life may take years to achieve, but it’s worth it in the long run.
Worth the time, the thought - or rather, the thoughtfulness - and, often,
the waiting." Pete Seeger

(in reply to CruelNUnsual)

Profile

Post #: 36

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:36:56 AM

sappatoti

Posts: 14844
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: the edge of darkness...
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: sappatoti
Observing and hypothesizing on "cause and effect" is helpful, but only one part of the equation of understanding life.

quote:

Maybe studying the quantum side of things might bring more empirical, observable data to go towards answering the question of "why." But I also think that the more scientists start studying quantum relationships, an exponentially larger number of unknowns will be uncovered, leading to even more questions of "why."

quote:

For me, anyway, faith that something more than us exists keeps me going.

Relating to your last quote above in context with the previous two what degree of this power shaping your world gives you comfort if that’s the right word?

i.e. are you happy that it just put together the sequence of events that led to your existence or do you require it to take a view on the way you live your life and look after you when you are going through bad experiences?

Am I happy that this "power" (or whatever) put together the sequences of my existence? I don't think I'm either happy, unhappy, or somewhere in between, notwithstanding that however I came to be, I am here. In my mind and thought, "it" simply exists. As much as my inquisitive mind would love to dig up the details of how the being that is me came about, I have my hands full just trying to be the type of being that I'm happy and comfortable with; i.e., trying to adapt myself, my surroundings, or both given the tools and powers that I have shown in the past that I can manipulate.

As to a requirement of this "power" to take over for me during my bad experiences... no, I don't believe that it should. For me to even think like that I would have to be able to give up the sense of independence that I have taken so long to cultivate within myself. I would have to be willing to acknowledge that I am unable to control my own destiny and rely on something larger than myself for the continued existence of my being. I'm just egocentric enough to not take that step; I'm not willing to give up my independence (as much or as little as I truly may have). Right now I am happy with the illusion of being able to control my own destiny.

Do I call this "power" a god or ascribe it with god-like abilities ("god" being an aggregate of all the definitions commonly given to unseen powers)? Personally, I don't have enough empirical evidence one way or another to guide my decision so no, I'm not ready to call it a god. I am willing to give consideration to the idea there is, perhaps, some force that we cannot yet comprehend that does shape elements into what we see and think at our level, but even still, I wouldn't give it the title of a god.

My favorite metaphor for how I perceive of existence comes from the movie Men in Black. Comical (or not) as that movie may have been, the image of our known existence being wrapped up inside of a marble being used to play a game of Marbles by some supposedly higher beings makes the perfect visual as to how I believe things are. One could assume that the Marble playing beings are themselves wrapped up in another Marble being used by yet another ring of highly evolved beings, and so on, and so on. Ultimately (maybe), there might exist the originator of this whole model of existence, and it might be argued that such a being (or collective of beings) could be given the title of a god, but that would also imply that existence itself has boundaries.

As an inquisitive explorer, I'm not yet ready to submit to boundaries on existence.

_____________________________

Never mind the man on the edge of the darkness... he means no harm...

"Community, Identity, Stability." ~ A Brave New World, Aldous Huxley, 1932

If you don't like my attitude, QUIT TALKING TO ME!

(in reply to FullCircle)

Profile

Post #: 37

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:42:23 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

Anyone with an open mind has to acknowledge the possibility that something may exist, and it is impossible to disprove the existence of something...you just may not have found it yet.

However once one looks for evidence that something exists and none can be found (despite millenia for someone to find that evidence) and that there is no indirect evidence that the existence of something is necessary , it is fallacious to say that faith (a belief in something without proof or material evidence) is required to conclude that something doesnt exist.

...you may just not have found it yet

so...you're kinda going on faith then...about the whole conclusion thing...regarding the nonexistence of something you just may not have found yet.

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to CruelNUnsual)

Profile

Post #: 38

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:44:05 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

OMG are my taxes due too??!! Not today, right?

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to Rule)

Profile

Post #: 39

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:49:57 AM

subtee