RE: Can You Believe It?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Can You Believe It?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Can You Believe It?

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:53:49 AM

sappatoti

Posts: 14844
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: the edge of darkness...
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
Hi Sappa!

Do you find faith is an action or a state of mind, or something else?

Hi subtee! :-)

Speaking for myself, faith fills the void between what I believe and having actual evidence that my previous beliefs are either true, not, or something in between. I will use my faith as a guide on what my course of actions and reactions should be in situations where I have little else to go on.

For me, faith is neither an action unto itself nor is it purely a state of mind. What it is I cannot define but I know that without it, my existence has no purpose.

_____________________________

Never mind the man on the edge of the darkness... he means no harm...

"Community, Identity, Stability." ~ A Brave New World, Aldous Huxley, 1932

If you don't like my attitude, QUIT TALKING TO ME!

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 41

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 11:57:04 AM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

Tell them you are going to stay home and read "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman.

Here is a link to a "Godless" NPR interview with him.(insert tougue in cheek smiley here)

I will definitely check this out. Thank you, Outlier

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to outlier)

Post #: 42

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 12:04:53 PM

sappatoti

Posts: 14844
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: the edge of darkness...
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
You immediately stack the deck by assuming there has to be a "why", because that implies a purpose. It doesnt require the least bit of faith to be an atheist, all it requires is not looking for things that are unneccesary.

Then I apologize for this. I cannot imagine existence not having a purpose. Perhaps it is a bit one-sided and limiting of me assuming that everyone is looking for an answer to the question of "why."

Thank you for exposing me to the idea that not everyone needs to know "why."

_____________________________

Never mind the man on the edge of the darkness... he means no harm...

"Community, Identity, Stability." ~ A Brave New World, Aldous Huxley, 1932

If you don't like my attitude, QUIT TALKING TO ME!

(in reply to CruelNUnsual)

Post #: 43

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 12:22:54 PM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Hi Dark - subtee makes a good point, which is that how an individual tackles these questions is very revelatory about their state of mind and the way they address life in general, precisely because they have never been answered. To me, anyway, how someone approaches religious and/or spiritual beliefs is very telling about them as a person.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

What I should have explained is that to me the asking, contemplating and answering (or not) of the question "is there a god" to ourselves and for ourselves might be self defining...

Hey Kitt, and tee.
I would still disagree. We may chose to answer the question in the way we want to be defined, but it doesn't define the person itself. The question causes an assumption, not a definition. If the question was, 'do you have a belief in a god' would be different.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 44

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 1:11:44 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

My main issue with Christianity as with the other Abrahamic religions is that they all exploit peoples' fears of mortality and death and through these fears seek to try and present illusion as the truth and dismiss the truth as mere illusion or superstition.

Hi Stella

I am only quoting the first few lines of your post because they speak for the remainder.

I don't think you need be religious to fear death. If anything I fear oblivion more than hell.

A true atheist has no solace at his death and believes his life had no meaning in the grand scheme of existence. His perception is gone with his life...meaningless.

A true person of faith, unlike what you believe, has comfort in his beliefs that his essence will carry on and so will those of his love ones.

Now say he is wrong and there is only oblivion…well he will never know but his last minutes of life can be filled with hope.

So what is so bad about a chance of an afterlife as apposed to nothing?

Believe me if there were no religions men would still find ways and reasons to kill each other so blaming the worlds problems on religion does not fly with me.

Butch

(in reply to stella41b)

Post #: 45

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 1:12:00 PM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

It's harder to question than believe.

On both sides, don't you think?

As I said, my brother is a very good man; he lives his Christianity. He works in a homeless shelter, volunteers at the Mission/Soup kitchen, helps his neighbors, etc. However, a huge part of his faith is evangelical. It is not self contained, it is defined and expressed by its outreach. He must, must, must try to keep me out of hell. Poor guy.

This type of seminar, which is being held at a liberal arts college here by the way, is intended to argue this point exactly, it seems to me. It serves the text and verbiage to dissuade and persuade. It posits that Christianity actually requires the least amount of faith from us because it is the most reasonable belief and we all have beliefs.

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 46

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 1:18:02 PM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
A true atheist has no solace at his death and believes his life had no meaning in the grand scheme of existence.

Not true.

(I managed to submit my income taxation form, but I still suffer from a severe cold.)

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 47

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 1:35:06 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

In answer to the OP:

Chicago Statement, in short the bible is 100% accurate down to the last punctuation mark. I have dozens of verses to torment anyone who believes that.

Scopes 2, McLean v. Arkansas is the actual name of the case, was the beginning of the end for state mandated creationism taught in public schools. Geisler did not particularly stand out in the trial and by all accounts, the transcript is incomplete, was demolished on cross. The decision makes only a few mentions of Geisler and is clearly unswayed by his positions.
www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mclean-v-arkansas.html

Geisler himself seems to be a waning figure on the traveling fundamentalist preacher circuit. Was sort of surprised to see his name again after several years. His "more faith to be an atheist" presentation is more than 5 years old, he has writer credit on a book with that name from 2004 based on it. It's a whole lot of unsupported asserttions and flat out lies.

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 48

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 2:09:04 PM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Scopes 2, McLean v. Arkansas is the actual name of the case, was the beginning of the end for state mandated creationism taught in public schools. Geisler did not particularly stand out in the trial and by all accounts, the transcript is incomplete, was demolished on cross. The decision makes only a few mentions of Geisler and is clearly unswayed by his positions.
www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mclean-v-arkansas.html

[snip]

Dang...do you have the cliff notes link?

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 49

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 2:24:25 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
A true atheist has no solace at his death and believes his life had no meaning in the grand scheme of existence.

Not true.

...for once Rule and i agree. A true aethist sees this life as all there is. So, leading a good life in this life is a reward unto itself. An aethist on their deathbed can find solace in the good they have done in this life, their achievements, their positive contributions.
Aethists don't necessarily believe life is meaningless, just that it arose randomly. The meaning of life to an aethist is whatever they decide it is.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 50

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 2:32:47 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Scopes 2, McLean v. Arkansas is the actual name of the case, was the beginning of the end for state mandated creationism taught in public schools. Geisler did not particularly stand out in the trial and by all accounts, the transcript is incomplete, was demolished on cross. The decision makes only a few mentions of Geisler and is clearly unswayed by his positions.
www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mclean-v-arkansas.html

[snip]

Dang...do you have the cliff notes link?

In short Arkansas law mandated teaching both "creation science" and mainstream science. McLean challenged the law and the state of arkansas chose to attempt to defend the validity of creationism as a science. It must have been quite a fascinating trial, the fundamentalist movements then bright lights presented the case for the state while the plaintiff's experts presented the actual science and evidence. The ruling was that the Arkansas law mandating teching creationism was unconstitutional. Arkansas did not appeal so it took until Edwards v Aguillard in 1987 to get a SCOTUS precedent that teaching creationism in public schools is an unconstitutional endorsement of religion.

(in reply to subtee)

Post #: 51

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 2:35:16 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

So, leading a good life in this life is a reward unto itself.

But as I say if there is no afterlife… neither will know… but only one has the solace of the possibility of an afterlife.

Butch

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 52

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 2:43:36 PM

stella41b

Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Believe me if there were no religions men would still find ways and reasons to kill each other so blaming the worlds problems on religion does not fly with me.

This isn't blaming religion for the world's problems. It isn't about that at all. However I feel that the stereotypical image of Mankind through the prism of mainstream religious thinking i somewhat skewed.

However I feel the real base for any religion is not found in any scriptures or teachings but in the hearts and minds of individuals who make up the diverse collective of individual perceptions and beliefs united through humanity and communion of the spirit.

And this to me is perfectly acceptable.

_____________________________

CM's Resident Lyricist
also Facebook
http://stella.baker.tripod.com/
50NZpoints
Q2
Simply Q

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 53

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 2:46:44 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

So, leading a good life in this life is a reward unto itself.

But as I say if there is no afterlife… neither will know… but only one has the solace of the possibility of an afterlife.

Butch

...well duh, of course. But what you said was 'solace at death'...and in those terms Rule and i have both given you reasons why that statement was incorrect.
You're wrong about aethists because, as a non-aethist, you seem to deny the possibility of their mindset and continually keep trying to recast it as a religious one. i don't care if there's an afterlife or not. As an aethist all i care about is this life. My actions in this life are the standard by which i judge things........i don't need a concept of an afterlife to give me a moral standard by which to live my life. i make my own up.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 54

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 2:53:26 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

So, leading a good life in this life is a reward unto itself.

But as I say if there is no afterlife… neither will know… but only one has the solace of the possibility of an afterlife.

If some people find solace in the belief life doesn't end with death, all the more power to them. At least, that's honest: it's the fright of the unknown that pushes them to believe. But that's not faith in God: it's superstition.

_____________________________

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 55

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 2:54:02 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

So, leading a good life in this life is a reward unto itself.

But as I say if there is no afterlife… neither will know… but only one has the solace of the possibility of an afterlife.

Butch

I chopped part of the post... What I meant to add was that both atheists and people of faith lead good lives… There is no special reward for living a good life… the reward is after death… if you believe…

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 56

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 2:57:50 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
There is no special reward for living a good life… the reward is after death… if you believe…

Why should there be a reward for doing good though? Good is an end on to itself. What you seem to be saying is that life is nothing but a preparation for the afterlife. It's eerily reminiscent of the Ancient Egyptians (who were cool, but not very modern).

_____________________________

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 57

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 3:01:40 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

So, leading a good life in this life is a reward unto itself.

But as I say if there is no afterlife… neither will know… but only one has the solace of the possibility of an afterlife.

If some people find solace in the belief life doesn't end with death, all the more power to them. At least, that's honest: it's the fright of the unknown that pushes them to believe. But that's not faith in God: it's superstition.

I know that when my time comes I will be terrified...but I will also believe there is a possibility of an afterlife. That is the difference… An atheist knows there is only oblivion...how damn depressing. The man or woman of faith, be it superstition or not, is comforted by the thought of heaven.

I was addressing Stella’s statement that religion exploits those fears. I say they help ease those same fears.

Butch

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 58

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 3:07:09 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

I completely disagree. Not believing in life after death doesn't mean "knowing there is nothing but oblivion". It means that one is able to conduct one's life freely and independently from fear of the unknown: because although you might believe, you still have no certainty, otherwise why would you be terrified of death? You seem to be comforting yourself with a possibility that your consciousness won't disappear after your death because you are frightened of facing the possibility that you have one finite period of time during which you will live, and after which there will be nothing. I have reconciled myself to the fact that once I die, I will no longer be. Why be frightened of the inevitable?

Edited for clarity.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 3/31/2009 3:10:01 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 59

RE: Can You Believe It? - 3/31/2009 3:09:01 PM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
What you seem to be saying is that life is nothing but a preparation for the afterlife. It's eerily reminiscent of the Ancient Egyptians

People in those days did have an afterlife - provided they had proven worthy. These days few or none may expect such an afterlife. Theologically, though, we may extrapolate from the physical to the spiritual. If so, then those aspects of the mind that have proven worthy - whether evil or good - may be expected to have a spiritual afterlife.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 60

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Can You Believe It?

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.094