RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike...

RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (Full Version)

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Lockit -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/2/2009 1:59:25 PM)
Bingo on a big part of this it seems... but what I found interesting was how they were going to try to lead people into quiting and the smokeless cig... well.. I guess I found a few things interesting. We the land of sheep must have a sheppard it seems... a highly paid one at that.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/2/2009 2:35:16 PM)
So if obesity was proven to cause medical issues that out a strain on the rest of us, caused someone to spend more money in an area of non-survival (excess food), then would it be okay to put some type of extra tax on them? Just checking if your principal is a universal one, or a selective one. quote: ORIGINAL: LDRandAstarte If they are the lowest earners, maybe they should be spending that $2500.00/year groceries, the electric bill, etc, instead of carcinogens that are going to make them a burden on the health care system (ie; the rest of us) NOTE: before you start, I smoked for 22 years. Quit first try, yes it was hard and unpleasant, but once my mind was made up to do so it was not imposable. As a "reformed smoker" I fully defend your right to smoke if you choose to do so. It is not illegal so go ahead if you want to. I am against the "know the truth" ads on TV, based on the equal opportunity idea, if you can bad mouth cigarettes in nationwide ad campaigns, they should be allowed to advertise too. However, the choice is yours to smoke or quit! If you don't like what you have to pay, Quit.

MissIsis -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/3/2009 3:54:03 AM)
We should really start taxing alcohol, since it is something that really isn't needed in life, & why not while we are at it, tax the sports games, & the concerts, and how about a huge tax on marriage licenses based on the average number of years people stay married? (In case someone can't tell, yes, I am being sarcastic.) It makes much more sense to me to just cut out services that the government can't afford to pay for, than to raise any kind of taxes, especially, in an economy with so many people unemployed & hurting.

TheUtopian -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/3/2009 3:58:10 AM)
quote: If you tax a vice and then apply that money to an important program, then you really do not want that vice to go away, because it would stop funding this very special and important program. Any comments on that specifically? That’s your assumed logic, but not necessarily that of the taxing authority. How generous of you, though, to phrase this question in such an overly simplistic manner. Obviously, its not that simple… I would look at it in a more nuanced way that suggests its a calculated risk on the taxing authority’s part to continually push the envelope to a point where the revenue stream generated through the taxation of tobacco related products is thoroughly maximized. It’s also my feeling that their thinking/logic here has been thoroughly modeled through super computers that defines for them to what significance and at what point the revenue fall-off will/would-be detrimental in effect to those specific programs. In essence, if this tax increase is such it causes thirty percent of the smokers to quit, yet maintains or even grows the taxation revenue stream, I’m extremely confident it will be viewed by them as a significant accomplishment. If you’re looking for some kind of nuanced, philosophical ethical vs. unethical argument ---Work that out for yourself. quote: Vices are usually things that people should not do at all, or not in excess. Apparently smoking is a vice. Usually society wants people to stop vices. You’ve been accusatory in specific regard of my non-understanding of a perceived addictive behavior. Let me ask you in reference to the above : Do you always think in such a simplistic manner? Sitting in your Lazy Boy after work every night, drinking a whole six-pack of Dr. Pepper, while watching eight solid hours worth reality-TV and Sitcoms is prolly a vice too. But ''that'' vice at this point, does not seem to have the same long term, downstream reciprocal effects smoking has on society. Smoking is highly offensive in the sphere of a public arena. It’s dirty, nasty and highly toxic for the majority of those innocent bystanders. And it looks to me like there’s a push back by the majority that would try to seriously curb this offensive behavior. So your lumping it in as ''just'' a vice….and than following that up with a generality-based supposition like '' Usually society wants people to stop vices.'' -- Is not only completely ridiculous, but also highly bizarre coming from someone who goes to great lengths through out the thread trying emphasize the complexities of rectifying a perceived addictive behavior. quote: Your last paragraph states your position is that you do not support the tax, but in this case since it is something you really dislike you do support the tax. Is that correct? If so, would that not mean that your principles and convictions are flexiable depending upon who is getting screwed by the government? Let me further clarify my position : I do not support the tax increase, and would not vote for it if placed on the ballot. However, I accept the tax increase--with a smile-- as a fait accompli, generated by agenda-driven public policy institutions and unscrupulous/untrustworthy politicians. The wavering/hypocrisy you’re trying to identify is very similar to that of myriad of posters here who vehemently support Chicago-school / free-market principles and decries government intervention. But at the same time, feels its of the utmost importance that a said/select group of derivative ensconced banks is re-inflated at taxpayer expense, and has always accepted such as a fait accompli. - R

ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/3/2009 3:58:58 AM)
Which services would you cut 1st? And didn't you know that since the government prints the money, there isn't anything that it can't "afford" :D ~Dave

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/3/2009 6:49:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheUtopian quote: If you tax a vice and then apply that money to an important program, then you really do not want that vice to go away, because it would stop funding this very special and important program. Any comments on that specifically? That’s your assumed logic, but not necessarily that of the taxing authority. How generous of you, though, to phrase this question in such an overly simplistic manner. Obviously, its not that simple… Assumed logic. Seems pretty black and white to me, as do the several cases since and including prohibition. quote: I would look at it in a more nuanced way that suggests its a calculated risk on the taxing authority’s part to continually push the envelope to a point where the revenue stream generated through the taxation of tobacco related products is thoroughly maximized. Since it is being done, then this is the method that should be done. quote: It’s also my feeling that their thinking/logic here has been thoroughly modeled through super computers that defines for them to what significance and at what point the revenue fall-off will/would-be detrimental in effect to those specific programs. Really? Super computers? quote: In essence, if this tax increase is such it causes thirty percent of the smokers to quit, yet maintains or even grows the taxation revenue stream, I’m extremely confident it will be viewed by them as a significant accomplishment. Yes if any tax increases the general fund, and allows funding for special projects it is considered a success. quote: If you’re looking for some kind of nuanced, philosophical ethical vs. unethical argument ---Work that out for yourself. I have already worked it out for myself, I just find it odd how people use salad bar ethics through their life. If you do not want to involve yourself in a discussion of ethics as applied to the government, I will understand. quote: quote: Vices are usually things that people should not do at all, or not in excess. Apparently smoking is a vice. Usually society wants people to stop vices. You’ve been accusatory in specific regard of my non-understanding of a perceived addictive behavior. Let me ask you in reference to the above : Do you always think in such a simplistic manner? Well you did not seem to be getting it, so I made it simple. Also, when solving problems you need to deconstruct them first, which breaks them down into areas and as simple as possible. Then add in more depth so you slowly solve a problem, or reach a conclusion. quote: Sitting in your Lazy Boy after work every night, drinking a whole six-pack of Dr. Pepper, while watching eight solid hours worth reality-TV and Sitcoms is prolly a vice too. But ''that'' vice at this point, does not seem to have the same long term, downstream reciprocal effects smoking has on society. Some would disagree. I believe the over consumption of sugar, HFCS, inactivity, and hypnosis effect of a lot of TV is actually worse. Some interesting studies and research if you bother to read it. quote: Smoking is highly offensive in the sphere of a public arena. It’s dirty, nasty and highly toxic for the majority of those innocent bystanders. And it looks to me like there’s a push back by the majority that would try to seriously curb this offensive behavior. Now we have gotten to the truth. People find it highly offensive, so they are willing to deviate from their principles to be "okay" with what is done. Your position could have been contained in this entire paragraph. quote: So your lumping it in as ''just'' a vice….and than following that up with a generality-based supposition like '' Usually society wants people to stop vices.'' -- Is not only completely ridiculous, but also highly bizarre coming from someone who goes to great lengths through out the thread trying emphasize the complexities of rectifying a perceived addictive behavior. It is completely ridiculous because you say so? Care to support that statement somehow? Also, I believe you added the word "just" in which is pretty deceitful to change what you are trying to refute. quote: quote: Your last paragraph states your position is that you do not support the tax, but in this case since it is something you really dislike you do support the tax. Is that correct? If so, would that not mean that your principles and convictions are flexiable depending upon who is getting screwed by the government? Let me further clarify my position : I do not support the tax increase, and would not vote for it if placed on the ballot. However, I accept the tax increase--with a smile-- as a fait accompli, generated by agenda-driven public policy institutions and unscrupulous/untrustworthy politicians. The wavering/hypocrisy you’re trying to identify is very similar to that of myriad of posters here who vehemently support Chicago-school / free-market principles and decries government intervention. But at the same time, feels its of the utmost importance that a said/select group of derivative ensconced banks is re-inflated at taxpayer expense, and has always accepted such as a fait accompli. - R If you bother to look at any of my posts concerning government, you will find my positions are pretty consistant. I challenge you to find other wise. You have made your position pretty clear now, and I understand. Hope that works for you. Orion

thishereboi -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/3/2009 7:00:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LDRandAstarte . If they are the lowest earners, maybe they should be spending that $2500.00/year groceries, the electric bill, etc, instead of carcinogens that are going to make them a burden on the health care system (ie; the rest of us) Yea, they should be, but that is not how life works. They will still smoke, they will just have less for food and other stuff. But their kids will have better health care and can go to the docs for vitamin shots, so that's good. They shouldn't be blowing money on the lottery either, or booze. But that happens also. On a positive note for this new tax....my friend who voted for Obama because she felt he really cared about her and wouldn't raise her taxes....she said this was the final straw. Next election she's gonna go republican. Between her ss benifits and all the new taxes she can't afford to have someone in office who cares that much.

StrangerThan -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/3/2009 9:34:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: LDRandAstarte . If they are the lowest earners, maybe they should be spending that $2500.00/year groceries, the electric bill, etc, instead of carcinogens that are going to make them a burden on the health care system (ie; the rest of us) Yea, they should be, but that is not how life works. They will still smoke, they will just have less for food and other stuff. But their kids will have better health care and can go to the docs for vitamin shots, so that's good. They shouldn't be blowing money on the lottery either, or booze. But that happens also. On a positive note for this new tax....my friend who voted for Obama because she felt he really cared about her and wouldn't raise her taxes....she said this was the final straw. Next election she's gonna go republican. Between her ss benifits and all the new taxes she can't afford to have someone in office who cares that much. Going republican isn't really solving anything. It's flipping back and forth between entrenched parties who give one damn about you, and that one damn occurs during election cycles. That's the point they all come out to be your friend and tell you all the crap they're going to do to fix your problems and make life better for those in need. Soon as that phase is over, they're sitting back on capitol hill pancaked for the cameras and feverishly figuring out more ways to separate you from your money. You want to fund a special cause? How about doing it with some of the 12 trillion that is projected to be pumped into the banking system this year. You want to fund education? Look at lotteries that are supposed to do that very thing in many states and look at the percentages of where the money goes. The change that needs to happen isn't the one Obama brought into office. It will only occur when enough people finally say, had it. I want another choice.

Arpig -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/3/2009 11:23:28 AM)
Just buy Mohawks...way cheaper, $15 a carton

domiguy -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/3/2009 4:01:50 PM)
I would like to live a little longer. I would live to fuck without gasping for air. I would like to be free of paying eight bucks for a pack of smokes. So I quit.

Sanity -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/3/2009 4:35:07 PM)
Here's to your success domiguy. I did it, I quit a couple of years ago, it can be done. You just have to be determined, and refuse to let yourself have even one drag. There's some good medicine on the market now that really helps a lot, look into it if you need it. Just don't quit quitting, be determined. If you slip and have one, quit again. Never give up. quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I would like to live a little longer. I would live to fuck without gasping for air. I would like to be free of paying eight bucks for a pack of smokes. So I quit.

winterlight -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/3/2009 4:49:54 PM)
i can see chocolate, potato chips and other things next....

sappatoti -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/3/2009 5:02:42 PM)
... beer, wine, liquor, condoms, fetish toys ...

domiguy -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/3/2009 5:09:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Here's to your success domiguy. I did it, I quit a couple of years ago, it can be done. You just have to be determined, and refuse to let yourself have even one drag. There's some good medicine on the market now that really helps a lot, look into it if you need it. Just don't quit quitting, be determined. If you slip and have one, quit again. Never give up. quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I would like to live a little longer. I would live to fuck without gasping for air. I would like to be free of paying eight bucks for a pack of smokes. So I quit. Not easy. Quit cold. Haven't had a smoking dream in about a month...lol. Don't have "the pull" that I used to feel from the center of my chest...(my being) Addictions suck ass. Glad to be done with it. Can't look back, I deal with people going into retirement (work). Smokers are either dead or so fucking sick that longevity usually isn't on their side. Awful fucking habit...loved it and miss it so. out doors, fishing, having a drink. Goodbye smokes. You loved me like no other.

lronitulstahp -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/3/2009 5:20:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Here's to your success domiguy. I did it, I quit a couple of years ago, it can be done. You just have to be determined, and refuse to let yourself have even one drag. There's some good medicine on the market now that really helps a lot, look into it if you need it. Just don't quit quitting, be determined. If you slip and have one, quit again. Never give up. quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I would like to live a little longer. I would live to fuck without gasping for air. I would like to be free of paying eight bucks for a pack of smokes. So I quit. Not easy. Quit cold. Haven't had a smoking dream in about a month...lol. Don't have "the pull" that I used to feel from the center of my chest...(my being) Addictions suck ass. Glad to be done with it. Can't look back, I deal with people going into retirement (work). Smokers are either dead or so fucking sick that longevity usually isn't on their side. Awful fucking habit...loved it and miss it so. out doors, fishing, having a drink. Goodbye smokes. You loved me like no other. Wow...that little "monologue" reminds me of the funeral scene from "Four Weddings and a Funeral"...so, so sad....

TheUtopian -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/4/2009 2:11:23 AM)
quote: If you bother to look at any of my posts concerning government, you will find my positions are pretty consistant. I challenge you to find other wise. Not at all a tit-for-tat - But I'll take you up on it : In this current thread you seem to be genuinely concerned about the perceived inequity and how an increase in taxes related to tobacco products disproportionately targets the poor and low income. http://www.collarchat.com/m_1519972/mpage_1/tm.htm However, within the thread link above, you appear to be an extremely staunch supporter of the '' Fair Tax '' or otherwise known as a '' national sales tax. '' Now... anyone who has studied various newly proposed tax policy should have a firm grip on the fact that while there are many fine points one can attribute to the '' Fair Tax '', it is easily the most regressive form of taxation levied on a people --- because it hurts and disproportionately targets the poor and disadvantaged the most. In one thread that surrounds taxes -- You're both fair-minded and concerned over the perceived inequities as it relates to the poor/low income. In the other thread --- You're ready to sell the poor and disadvantaged down the river for the Fair Tax [:D] - R

Sanity -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/4/2009 7:21:24 AM)
As an ex smoker who absolutely hates the habit, I still believe that it should be MY decision whether or not to smoke. Or to eat fattening foods. Or drink soda pop. Or have a beer. Or have any kind of sex I want without a condom. Or bungee jump. Or go hang gliding. Or climb a mountain. Or go mountain biking. Or race on the NASCAR circuit. Or pilot an experimental aircraft. NOT the federal governments! quote: Wow...that little "monologue" reminds me of the funeral scene from "Four Weddings and a Funeral"...so, so sad....

thegirlincharge -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/4/2009 2:11:59 PM)
Yes, I believe that when you are addicted to cigarettes it continues to be a luxury. I certainly hope that people would consider it a luxury not a necessity. It would be awful to think that someone might choose buying a pack of cigarettes over eating, sleeping or shelter...those are necessities. One can survive without cigarettes no matter how addicted they are.

thegirlincharge -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/4/2009 2:13:43 PM)
I agree, Sanity, it should be your decision whether you want or choose to do those things. You just have to pay the extra tax for it (comes with the package).

Sanity -> RE: Yet another cigarette tax hike... (4/4/2009 2:20:45 PM)
President Obama slapping extra taxes on things in order to force his will on me shouldn't be a part of the package - that's my whole point. He's not my daddy and I'm not his son. If I want a smoke after sex Obama needs to stay the fuck out of my bedroom. If I want a beer or a slice of pie after work he should stay the fuck out of my fridge - and so on. Extra taxes are just another form of taking liberty away, of imposing the will of someone who thinks he should have the power of king or a dictator over us. quote: ORIGINAL: thegirlincharge I agree, Sanity, it should be your decision whether you want or choose to do those things. You just have to pay the extra tax for it (comes with the package).

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