RE: Radical Honesty (Full Version)

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AlexandraLynch -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/7/2009 11:46:36 PM)

The thought that comes to mind immediately is that we are all born expressing radical honesty, and those of us who are parents are quite aware of this fact. We've had to teach our ums that no, it is NOT necessary to point out that Daddy farted, we're all pretending we don't notice til it goes away, because that's polite. (laugh) 

I prefer radical honesty with myself. I prefer honesty seasoned with love and compassion from my companions on the road of life. I prefer courtesy and integrity and a willingness to assume that we're all doing our best from the world in general.

As it is? I have autism spectrum issues. I have all the radical honesty tendencies I need without having to work at it. (sigh)



eyesopened -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/8/2009 4:49:16 AM)

~fast reply~

The problem I have with radical honesty as it was presented in the op is the spontaneous utterance without filter part.  We just assume filters to be bad.  But not all filters are bad.  The 'say what I think they want to hear' filter = bad.  The 'say whatever is most convenient to me' filter = bad. In my opinion.  But the 'tell the truth kindly' filter isn't bad.  The 'first, do no harm' filter isn't bad.  In another post I was called a bullshit artist by avoiding saying things that would be hurtful or misunderstood by the person I was talking to.  Call me dishonest then, say I'm full of shit but I sleep well at night.

In the previous examples, being honest to a client or customer even if it costs a sale but increases customer loyalty is a great example of how 100% honesty works and works to everyone's benefit.  But to just blurt out whatever pops into our heads?  How much customer loyalty would one garner if one said "Jeeeze you've got an ugly baby! How can I help you today?"  Now, maybe I'm the only person on the planet that has not so nice thought bubbles that occassionally rise to the surface.  Sounds like I might be.  Is it so bad to teach our children that it is not necessary to point out that daddy or mommy farted or like my own at age 3 made sure our waitress (and everyone else in the restaurant) knew that she had really big chi-chi's?  How is adding a few filters such a bad thing?



Jeptha -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/8/2009 7:22:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Insulated isn't the word I would choose, usually thoughts in the group had impact upon me which would cause me to make changes. But private, and therefore safe to share, is always what happens in any therapeutic treatment....

I know therapy is confidential; I was saying I might like my experiment in radical honesty to be confidential, too.... I was sort of just goofing around, though.

But I have been interested in therapy groups, particularly since I read a chapter about them in Irving Yalom's book, "Existential Therapy"....
I've participated in various sorts of groups, but not in what I'd call a
"therapy group." My impression is that groups can have different dynamics depending on the rules laid down by the group or the moderator.
I could see that experience being a potential source of some interesting insights.

Radical honesty also seems like it could have some potential for insight in that way - or at least for being an interesting experience and experiment.

Or who knows - it could turn out to be really average and uneventful and unsurprising.

But, anyway; it's easy for me to stick the two ideas together in my mind, like peanut butter and chocolate.
quote:


...However, you can damage your relationships with others in the group so that they don't feel comfortable being in a group that you're in. If you value the support and impact of the group, then this isn't the best thing to do.

Very understandable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

... But the 'tell the truth kindly' filter isn't bad. The 'first, do no harm' filter isn't bad. I...... How is adding a few filters such a bad thing?

I agree with this. How is random cruelty productive? Why tell someone they have an ugly baby, for example? I see no reason for it.

I don't know if having that filter, which I do find of some value, is compatible with the whole rad honesty concept.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/8/2009 1:57:05 PM)

If a woman asks me out and I am not interested in her and the reasons are ones she cannot do anything about, do I really need to be "honest" with her about why?  Not in my opinion.  Doesn't mean I have to lie, but saying "I am flattered but I am not interested" conveys everything she needs to know and is truthful.  I don't need to tell her than her mustache is better than mine, or that her particular nose squicks me out, or whatever other issue it is that doesn't work for me.

I am very much in favor of honesty and I think I having  been more open than most  about myself on this board shows that.  However, to me, there is a vast difference between being open and honest with someone and verbal diarrea which is what the "radical honesty" concept sounds like to me.



ShaktiSama -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/8/2009 2:25:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

A couple of random reactions to what I've read thus far;

1) I don't think radical honesty necessarily means rudeness. You can be honest and still be considerate. I generally like manners, myself.


According to the article that was offered as a link, "Radical Honesty" means more than rudeness. It means being genuinely cruel, vile, abusive and stupid--if those are the first thoughts that pop into your head (and apparently for the therapist founder of the movement, they usually are). Sexual harassment of the nanny of your children and the women who are forced to deal with you in your professional life are also "A'ok"--you're just "liberating" yourself by being "radically honest".

The need to stick the "radical" label on this garbage is what should clue you that real honesty and integrity are not the issues at stake. Courtesy, compassion, professionalism, and ethical restraint of any kind are NOT ON THE MENU for this therapist and his disciples.

I would agree with those who say that children are the only members of society who are radically honest in a natural or organic way. I disagree utterly that making adults more infantile, selfish and self-involved is the solution to any perceived problem with society OR the individual, however. Also, I would point out that adults have many emotions and impulses that children do not have to cope with, in particular the ones associated with sex and violence.



subtee -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/8/2009 3:11:34 PM)

~FR

It seems to me the very "act" of doing it would make it contrived...it would actually lose honesty.

I don't see the point. I like manners.



Missokyst -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/8/2009 3:32:58 PM)

I am not a proponent of radical honesty.  I like discretion, privacy, secrets, societal politeness, kindness, and quite frankly.... lol mostly I don't have that much interest in people that are not boffing me.
I don't need to tell someone "you should put that donut down" "do you EVER shower?" or "That is not a good shade of red"
If they don't know it I don't feel it is my duty to tell them otherwise.  They might like that donut and not care if they are fat.  They might be a cop doing some undercover work and need the no shower look for duty.  They might think they look smashing in that shade of red.  Why would I think it is my business to tell someone honestly what I feel... unless I was boffing them?
For me, radical honesty is a way someone can be rude without feeling any remorse.  And that will not work in my world. 
I like guilt.  Remorse.  Regret.  As long as they serve a function.
In this case the function would be keeping a polite society, polite.
Kyst



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/8/2009 3:46:35 PM)

I come as close to practicing radical honesty as it is possible to do while still functioning in the real world. What this means, for me, is that if I say something, it is the truth. On occasion, though, I refrain from saying -anything- because opening my mouth would result in radical crap hitting the fan. Sometimes, there just isn't a civil way to express the brutally honest state of a given situation. Not a fan of shit-storms, -regardless- of the name and reputation that I have obtained over the years (and no, a firestorm is NOT the same as a shitstorm... a firestorm is a -cleansing- razing of the immediate environment... not a crap-laying one *grins*) I am just as happy to have finally learned when it is most appropriate to shut one's mouth. In most cases, I also refuse to participate in anything related to the untenable situation, and interestingly enough, my refusal to participate is usually enough for anyone else with any sense to choose to avoid whatever it was that I turned away from.

Aside from that, it has been the unfortunate realization of both friends and family that, despite my capacity to couch things in particularly palatable-sounding language, I am, unfortunately, radically honest. The nicest thing my darling ever said about me is "She has the capacity to verbally flay someone and have them thank her for the experience."



PhlossophurDomme -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/8/2009 8:10:21 PM)

Radical Honesty sounds to Me like a cross between Tourette's Syndrome and humiliation play.  Throw in non-consensual and potentially harmful and the 'speak what you see' camp ends up a party of one.



Jeptha -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/9/2009 11:09:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I just practice Honestly.... I never really saw it as a radical concept..... Frankly, I am rather surprized that one would see it as radical. I guess maybe some people believe that deceit and lies are much more pronounces in our society that what I believe.

Ok ~ good question; is this even needed (or useful) in the first place?

(Certainly people don't seem to hold much back on these boards, for example!)

I wonder about its potential. Like Missokyst in another post, I'm most open with those I'm close to, but as it radiates out from there it grows fainter.

Personally, I tend to play it somewhat close to the vest with folks I don't know. And, this has often turned out to be a good strategy for me. There are times when I've been glad I didn't open my mouth.

But - since I seem to be fairly good at (or at least fairly used to) that strategy (though it may not be reflected well here) , I wonder what I could learn about trying other strategies that I'm less familiar with.

quote:

But along with honesty comes other admirable character strengths like kindness and empathy as Michael stated. Sometimes it really just about how you say what your thinking and feeling. Both might be honest... but one is with kindness and empathy and one not so much. I am not sure why this is such a radical concept.

I agree, and bolded some of the above for emphasis.
See - I don't think the concept of "radical honesty" is necessarily mutually exclusive with the practice of kindness and empathy, at all.

In fact, without those things I wonder if it's actually less honest - as long as your empathy and kindness are genuine, that is.

I think it's a false dichotomy, but most posters seem to be thinking that empathy and kindness are automatically dispensed with, so maybe I'll have to re-read that article when I have some time later.



ShaktiSama -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/9/2009 12:07:17 PM)

It is also possible that the author of the article may have been fundamentally dishonest in his depiction of the founder of the movement as a crude greedy goon, and even of his own attempts to be radically honest.  Note that he never gives a single example of an "honest" moment which would leave anyone on the receiving end of it feeling good or better about themselves.  To the author, "honesty" always manifests as hostility, rudeness, cold lack of empathy and creepily inappropriate sexual remarks. 

There could definitely be an agenda to assassinate legitimate honesty in the article, but one of the things I would observe is that virtually no one--in this article or even in this thread!--ever associates this "radical honesty" concept with the one quality which can make honesty a positive force in the real world:  vulnerability of the speaker.

If your "honesty" is always more dangerous and painful to others than it is to you, you aren't really "honest"--you're just a bully.  Personally, I noticed that every example of "radical honesty" in the article was always about seizing or exercising more power over others--it was never about empowering them or even about sharing private thoughts and feelings that might make you look stupid, silly, weak or sentimental.

You tell the nanny "I think you're hot and I want to fuck you", not "Sometimes when I see how much love you give my children, it makes me ashamed and I feel like a bad parent".  You tell the female co-worker about your thoughts of hitting on her if you weren't married--you don't tell your wife how it makes you feel to imagine losing her.  You tell your best friend that you imagine having sex with his wife, not that you imagine having sex with him.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/9/2009 12:14:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

If your "honesty" is always more dangerous and painful to others than it is to you, you aren't really "honest"--you're just a bully. 


We rarely agree but you are right on here!



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/9/2009 8:27:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama


If your "honesty" is always more dangerous and painful to others than it is to you, you aren't really "honest"--you're just a bully. 



I think that the issue comes up because people, in general, don't complain about radical honesty in their favor -- the difficult aspects of honesty typically come up when the situations arises where one must tell someone else something that is true, but that they don't want to hear.

In the course of any given day, about 70% of what I say is perceived in a manner that is apparently emotionally neutral. About 25% of commentary is apparently perceived in a manner that is emotionally positive by the listener. About 5% of what I say is perceived as emotionally negative by the listener, and yet 90% of the ongoing discourse and problems that came from the same directness came out of that ~5% of comments that were perceived negatively.

I would say that being direct doesn't make one a bully -- and that it is up to the recipient of information to assess what is said and determine whether or not it is productive to lose one's temper and get all riled up... and to be honest with oneself about whether or not what the person was saying was, perhaps, accurate. It does suck, at times, to hear someone's honest opinion and have that opinion differ greatly from how we saw ourselves -- but I'd rather hear it to my face from someone honest enough to just confront me with it than find out about it having been whispered around behind my back, destroying my credibility without giving me an opportunity to decide whether or not I might be interested in changing the perceived "flaw" and, perhaps, save my reputation.



catize -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/9/2009 9:51:46 PM)

quote:

 The thought that comes to mind immediately is that we are all born expressing radical honesty, and those of us who are parents are quite aware of this fact.


quote:

  eyesopened:  like my own at age 3 made sure our waitress (and everyone else in the restaurant) knew that she had really big chi-chi's?  How


Little folk are not the only ones who make comments without filters; I have worked with people with schizophrenia for years.  Two of my favorite stories:  one patient told me “You should wear make-up more often.  It really helps!” 
Another said one time, “That outfit makes you look a lot skinnier than you really are!” 
 
It helps to have a sense of humor, and I find that to be true even when someone is not as innocent in their remarks. 
 
Some things need to be said.  But if it doesn’t serve any purpose, other than to prove how ‘honest’ we can be, then I think we would do well to keep silent. 



Jeptha -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/10/2009 10:54:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

It is also possible that the author of the article may have been fundamentally dishonest in his depiction of the founder of the movement as a crude greedy goon, and even of his own attempts to be radically honest....

I wonder about that possibility.

-First; I'm not that familiar with Esquire magazine, but reading the article and viewing some of the ads ("Women we love" etc.) gave me the impression of something like a Mad magazine trying to imitate its older brother Playboy, stuck in the mentality of the early 90's.

I don't have 100% confidence in that single source to deliver a well-rounded overview.

It is quite possible that the guy is a goon with a some good ideas, as well.
I know the price of the workshops he was peddling put me off.
That kind of stuff smacks of marketeering and makes me skeptical.

But sometimes there is a kernal of viable product there at the center of all the hype.
quote:


.... one of the things I would observe is that virtually no one--in this article or even in this thread!--ever associates this "radical honesty" concept with the one quality which can make honesty a positive force in the real world: vulnerability of the speaker.

That is an excellent observation!

(After all, there are whole well-respected schools of psychology that would have it that our anger {for example} generally stems from our fear about something, right? But at that point, every encounter could become like an analytic session. And the kid at the convenience store doesn't want to be my therapist, unfortunately.)

I think what you've touched upon here is what bugs me about the idea that anything you blurt out is honest.

For instance, I saw an act of "road rage" today; tailgating, then yelling and giving the finger as they were passing. Was it an expression of honesty?

Sort of, I guess, but somehow it doesn't quite really qualify, in my book, but I'm not sure why.

I think if you just blurt out something, and then run away, it doesn't get it done. Especially if you're insulated from any kind of feedback or repercussion. If you just dish it out, but don't take it, I see that as being dishonest in that you can't face the truth that your action brings about. You are fleeing from it.

Ok, maybe that's a bad example, because it's not very typical. But it reminded me of this thread.

Though, I think I recall that in the article, Blanton admonishes the Esquire author for delivering some "honesty" of the painful type via e-mail, and I think for similar reasons: that you have to be with it and own it to really consider that you've been honest about it. (I'm kind of paraphrasing and going by memory here.)
quote:

If your "honesty" is always more dangerous and painful to others than it is to you, you aren't really "honest"--you're just a bully. Personally, I noticed that every example of "radical honesty" in the article was always about seizing or exercising more power over others--it was never about empowering them or even about sharing private thoughts and feelings that might make you look stupid, silly, weak or sentimental.

Those are really good observations, ShaktiSama



MissEnchanted -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/24/2009 10:07:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Went to the mall yesterday and my shopping companion tried on a pair of twill pants and came out of the dressing room and asked if the pants made her butt look big.  I asked her if she wanted the truth or just to feel good about the pants and she said she wanted the truth.  I tried the 'radical honesty thing' so I said: "Okay, Shamu, any pants would make your ass look big, no.... it's not that your ass looks big, it is huge, behemouth and is a danger to small children and the elderly as the shock of seeing something that large being dragged behind you could prove to be too traumatic.  Now, Jumbo, before you start with the damn waterworks, let me further point out that your advanced age is just a pitiful excuse to be too lazy to understand the simple concept of burning more calories than you consume!  Oh and for fuck's sake don't try to get me to fall into a lie of omission by giving me that worn out 'You'll-be-sorry-you-said-all-these-mean-things-when-I'm-dead', Mom, cuz I'm not standing down from 100% honesty just to placate you!"

Gosh it did feel liberating and so superior to all those times I simply said "Let's find something that fits better.  By the way I'm picking you up tomorrow and I'm going to start a walking program with you."

Fuck! fuck! fuck! Just opened the email from the family attorney and it seems I've been taken out of the will!  Bitch!

Roflmao!! hahahahaha



agirl -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/24/2009 10:40:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

It is also possible that the author of the article may have been fundamentally dishonest in his depiction of the founder of the movement as a crude greedy goon, and even of his own attempts to be radically honest.  Note that he never gives a single example of an "honest" moment which would leave anyone on the receiving end of it feeling good or better about themselves.  To the author, "honesty" always manifests as hostility, rudeness, cold lack of empathy and creepily inappropriate sexual remarks. 

There could definitely be an agenda to assassinate legitimate honesty in the article, but one of the things I would observe is that virtually no one--in this article or even in this thread!--ever associates this "radical honesty" concept with the one quality which can make honesty a positive force in the real world:  vulnerability of the speaker.

If your "honesty" is always more dangerous and painful to others than it is to you, you aren't really "honest"--you're just a bully.  Personally, I noticed that every example of "radical honesty" in the article was always about seizing or exercising more power over others--it was never about empowering them or even about sharing private thoughts and feelings that might make you look stupid, silly, weak or sentimental.

You tell the nanny "I think you're hot and I want to fuck you", not "Sometimes when I see how much love you give my children, it makes me ashamed and I feel like a bad parent".  You tell the female co-worker about your thoughts of hitting on her if you weren't married--you don't tell your wife how it makes you feel to imagine losing her.  You tell your best friend that you imagine having sex with his wife, not that you imagine having sex with him.



I'd forgotten about this thread.....came back in a rash moment and read your post.  So much of that really resonates with me......lol

agirl



Jeptha -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/25/2009 9:16:09 AM)

I did re-read the article.
But the practical aspects still remain shrouded in mystery because, to me, just blurting out random thoughts makes no sense. It might be about like schizophrenic gibberish. ~ Not that I have a non-sensical dialogue running through my head at all times!
But, I do see pros and cons to just about everything, as well as a lot of grey areas.
It's too much to blurt out in a succinct fashion.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

.... Note that he never gives a single example of an "honest" moment which would leave anyone on the receiving end of it feeling good or better about themselves...

I guess the thought is that we supress more "negative" stuff...but you still have a good point, because we could probably come forward with *much* more positive stuff, too.

quote:

...one of the things I would observe is that virtually no one--in this article or even in this thread!--ever associates this "radical honesty" concept with the one quality which can make honesty a positive force in the real world: vulnerability of the speaker.
When the Esquire guy tells Blanton (the Radical Honesty author) about the nanny, or the co-worker that he harassed, Blanton's response was "...so then, did you tell your wife about that?"
He had not - except that, of course, she could read it in the article when published in Esquire...



YourhandMyAss -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/25/2009 1:12:37 PM)

No, I don't believe in radical honesty in the context of speaking what ever comes into your head spontaniously an with out a filter,  somethings just don't need to be said not should they be said, and this comes from someone with practically no filtering system and who in the past HAS said what ever the hell it was that just popped into my head.

I don't care about the "kink world " at large  and what would or would not benifit them, I care about those around me who're involved with me and their feelings, and not forcing my every thought down their throats. However no, people saying what ever they thought with no filter would not be benifitial. What would be keeping me from then saying god you're ugly and you should wear a sack on your head, or that guy over there is such a fruit cake, we should send him fruitcake for christmas.

I have no right to go around telling people who don't care and may not want to hear them, my honest unbiased thoughts. I don't apreciate what Ic all drive by meanness and pot shots, when done to me, and some of my unfiltered thoughts can be quite harsh, why wuld I drive by attack someone else, if I don't want it done to me.



quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Firstly, Radical Honesty is guided by two basic principles: (1) 100% honesty, & (2) speaking whatever comes into one's head, spontaneously & without filter . .. . . .



Okay, that fun aside, I'm curious how y'all see this notion of Radical Honesty as kinksters, what are your varied opinions of this notion of radical honesty? I'm particularly interested in BDSM folks' take on this, given how important honesty is in WIIWD . .. . .

Do you practice Radical Honesty? Just in your BDSM relationships, or in your vanilla life, also? If you don't, are you interested, or not, in pursuing the idea? Do you think Radical Honesty would enhance the kink world or detract from it? Are you ready to have those around you, everywhere, blurt out whatever they're thinking, all the time?

So, for instance, my parents emphasized honesty quite intensely & I tend to think of myself as living at a pretty crispy-intense level of honesty -- some people can be really uncomfortable with the level of bluntness that I'm comfortable with, & I irregularly get that 'too much info' reaction from others . . .. . But, in the long run greater levels of honesty have tended to serve me, & so Radical Honesty sounds exciting & intriguing to my ears . . . . & it certainly seems like a dynamic that's very consistent with BDSM relationships . .. ... .

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this . . .. . . .

Best,
The Demon, Kia



YourhandMyAss -> RE: Radical Honesty (4/25/2009 1:17:12 PM)

I agree. And I can be quite cruel inside myself with my comments, and  thoughts, and random people don't need to be subjected to my mean ness, so what if they make me think  mean things, it's my job to keep shut and not pour that all over them.


quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl



I NEED a filter for my nasty, horrible, impatient, sometimes irrational thoughts, thank you very much. The world is a nicer place with some *control*....lol

agirl




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