RE: Reality or fantasy?

RE: Reality or fantasy? (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 11:45:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth slave, as a word, has *more than one* specific definition, as do many words, depending on *context. Precisely. then why make this statement? quote:* ...The fact is that a person on collarme who says 'I am a slave to my master' is putting a name upon something that is *not at all akin to slavery*... Because what you live daily is yours, it belongs to you. It's your reality. It's personal, and you chose to give it that name, slavery, with your personal definition attached to it. Which you are free to do. I will ask a question too, if you don't mind: why do you feel the need to describe it as slavery and to ascribe that noun to your personal relationship?

subtee -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 11:49:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut In a world that is as clear cut as the above is all D/s, M/s, BDSM etc just fantasy? Absolutely not. You can generate your own code of behaviour and choose to live by that. You are bound by the law of course, but then you are in any working, relationship or family arrangement (ditto day-to-day existence); so there's nothing particularly unrealistic about how you choose to organise your relationship. Edited to add: I would have thought it self-evident that any couple setting up a master/slave relationship, is engaging in a very real relationship. The fact that it's not recognised by an external force such as a legal title, doesn't detract from the nature of the relationship. It seems to me the point of these threads, and the contention they inevitably bring (perhaps are designed to bring), is the external forces part. Maybe without that recognition or whatever is gained from the disharmonious discourse something is detracted from the nature of the relationship.

kittinSol -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 11:51:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee Maybe without that recognition or whatever is gained from the disharmonious discourse something is detracted from the nature of the relationship. Yes.

cpK69 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 11:58:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee Maybe without that recognition or whatever is gained from the disharmonious discourse something is detracted from the nature of the relationship. My apologies in advance, if I am misunderstanding what you are saying; are you saying you don’t believe there can be harmony in a Master/slave relationship? Kim

MrRodgers -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 12:01:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Oh, I'd get off on getting arrested big time, can you imagine the thrill of it [&:] ? You mosey on down to my zip code girl and I'll...'bust your ass.'

NihilusZero -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 12:01:47 PM)
It seems to me some people are merely circling the discussion arguing that the colloquial and contextual use of the term "slavery" shouldn't be used by individuals in D/s relationships (regardless of the fact that it is a given that the term conveys the intended information) simply on the ground that the common social definition of it is different. It's like telling someone it's a "fantasy" if they use the phrase "spank the monkey" because, in reality, there are (likely) no monkeys involved.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 12:07:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth slave, as a word, has *more than one* specific definition, as do many words, depending on *context. Precisely. then why make this statement? quote:* ...The fact is that a person on collarme who says 'I am a slave to my master' is putting a name upon something that is *not at all akin to slavery*... Because what you live daily is yours, it belongs to you. It's your reality. It's personal, and you chose to give it that name, slavery, with your personal definition attached to it. Which you are free to do. I will ask a question too, if you don't mind: why do you feel the need to describe it as slavery and to ascribe that noun to your personal relationship? this slave didn't invent the terms "consensual slavery" or "Master/slave relationship". she used them after learning about them at the ripe old age of 36. this slave discovered a sub-group of folks within the general population that establish what they refer to as D/s and M/s relationships...an alternative to the conventional, socially accepted marriages and other egalitarian-based pairings. she found out that folks referred to themselves in all manner of ways, mostly "submissive", "dominant" and "switch", in order to facilitate pairings that fulfilled both parties. some folks even went so far as to differentiate between Dom/sub and Master/slave as to their preferred relationship style...although for some, the label is the only discernable difference between the two. this slave's personality, sexuality and preferred relationship orientation is more aligned with what is referred to as consensual slavery within the context of a Master/slave relationship dynamic than any other definition she has run across. neither of us were looking for a long-term Master/slave relationship. neither of us referred to ourselves as Master or slave in our profiles when we were searching for partners for fun and frolic. it is a relationship dynamic that appealed to both of us and has brought us both fulfillment and joy, regardless of how masterfully He had managed His life beforehand, or how slavishly this slave served everyone that crossed her path before we met...we were a dominant and submissive. it wasn't until we crafted this relationship that we referred to each other as Master and slave...and we don't expect anyone else to refer to us as that either---only within the context of our relationship to each other.

AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 12:09:48 PM)
It seems to me that whether it is fantasy or reality is an unanswerable question. As unanswerable as whether there really is a God or whether it is mythological fantasy. Does that make the lives of every one who is religious any less real? Is a priest not really a servant of God, even if Joe Shmoe sits there and says there is no God? The purpose of discussing these questions is not to find the one true answer, but to explore possibilities and to see many angles. For some, slavery is fantasy, because they themselves don't believe in it. If they feel they can walk out any time, then it really is not slavery. For others they cannot walk out because they are emotionally enslaved to the Master. Not every one "chooses" to become a slave. One can simply become enslaved- not through choice but because it happens to you ( like falling in love it can be out of your control). He has a hold on them that they respond to as a slave and they cannot leave. If it ever changes so that they are able to leave, then they are no longer enslaved. I also know some people who actually have been sold into slavery and have no assets of their own. They do not fantasize what they live, but are in every way I can see a slave, legal or not. To base reality on legality is a bit silly really. So, there are not really polygynous Mormons, because it is illegal? That makes them somehow not really wives, because the rest of the world doesn't support it? If you decide to do slavery as a fantasy, then it is a fantasy. If to you it is the reality of the relationship between you, then it is reality.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 12:10:56 PM)
I wasn't sure I wanted to answer this thread, for all the reasons that subtee brought up...but I can't help but put my two cents in so here goes... Any relationship a person chooses to engage in with another person (or persons) is a construct. Sometimes that construct is legal and sometimes it is not but that does not stop it from being a real construct Is it a real construct to others? It may well be but NOT NECESSARILY defined in the same way...e.g. Mercnbeth. I see their relationship as one of Dominance/submission and I recognize that what they have constructed is, in their world (which is what matters), a master/slave relationship. In MY world, I don't agree with the term "consensual slavery", seeing it as an oxymoron. Therefore, if I am going to set up a D/s construct for myself, it is not going to be as a "master/slave construct but rather a "master/submissive" construct. Does that mean that I don't recognize the construct that is Mercnbeth's relationship? No, it means that while I would not define it in the same way, I can most certainly recognize it and admire it. Is the fact that I disagree with their "descriptive term" for their relationship make it worth arguing over? Hell no, for they have certainly shown that they live what they believe and they follow it...that IS real. I have a submissive friend who has observed their relationship closely and unless she is really skilled at lying about it, I know that their relationship is a close one of both dedication to their defined-by-them M/s dynamic and their life together.

subtee -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 12:12:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cpK69 My apologies in advance, if I am misunderstanding what you are saying; are you saying you don’t believe there can be harmony in a Master/slave relationship? Kim No apology necessary, I've been less than clear. I certainly believe there can be harmony in any relationship. What I'm suggesting is that for some external input seems to be, well, really necessary. I don't know to what end. But it seems clear to me that some are always going to need to tell and others will need to feed that need. Somehow, it's fulfilling!

kittinSol -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 12:14:53 PM)
I didn't see anybody say that people shouldn't use whatever term they wanted to describe themselves. I did see a couple of people make very pertinent points (marie in particular) which seem to have been ignored, for whatever reason. In the end, only the people involved know what's going on between them - it's when they demand the rest of the world give their intimate relationships some kind of superficial validation that the disagreements arise on these forum boards. Since slavery is illegal, and they're not arguing to make it less so, let them have at it and describe their intimate rapport in whatever way they like. It's strange, because it's the very people who argue against conventionality that seem the most hell bent on conventions. Why should anyone care if others don't believe a person is a slave, if that's how she feels personally? What's arguable is whether the person in question is a slave... or whether she is enacting a fantasy.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 12:21:06 PM)
quote: ...Since slavery is illegal, and they're not arguing to make it so, let them have at it and describe their intimate rapport in whatever way they like... indeed, why must certain folks attempt to invalidate other's relationships with arguements like "slavery isn't legal", when they know full well there is more than one definition of the word, depending on context? ESPECIALLY on a message board that includes sections such as "Ask a Master"...and they aren't talking judo.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 12:44:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut In a world that is as clear cut as the above is all D/s, M/s, BDSM etc just fantasy? In my life, I have I learned that there are two kinds of truth: factual and experiential. All the things you listed are indeed factually true. However, all my experiences to the opposite are true, too. Not sure if that makes it less a fantasy to someone else, but it does to me and my experience. Master Fire

kittinSol -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 12:54:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: ...Since slavery is illegal, and they're not arguing to make it so, let them have at it and describe their intimate rapport in whatever way they like... indeed, why must certain folks attempt to invalidate other's relationships with arguements like "slavery isn't legal", when they know full well there is more than one definition of the word, depending on context? ESPECIALLY on a message board that includes sections such as "Ask a Master"...and they aren't talking judo. Here's the crux of it, I think: questioning the semantics isn't invalidating the relationship. The relationship is personal. The words you use to describe it to the world can be questioned, on the other hand, by the world you present it to: and that's part of being on a public forum.

NorthernGent -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 12:58:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee Maybe without that recognition or whatever is gained from the disharmonious discourse something is detracted from the nature of the relationship. I suppose we all use a benchmark/guidance of some description from which to set our own standards, and seek some form of reassurance that we're on the right track, which is validation of sorts (including the various sub-groups inhabiting this board). My point was around titles/labels bestowed upon a relationship: you can give a tin of beans any supermarket label you wish, but it remains a tin of beans. It's the nature of the relationship that tells the story.

AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 12:59:14 PM)
quote: Here's the crux of it, I think: questioning the semantics isn't invalidating the relationship. The relationship is personal. The words you use to describe it to the world can be questioned, on the other hand, by the world you present it to: and that's part of being on a public forum. Words, words, mere words, no matter from the heart. (William Shakespeare )

kidwithknife -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 1:00:42 PM)
Historically speaking, I think most BDSM Master/slave relationships are probably nearer to the feudal liege lord/bondsmen model than they are to historical slavery. (Including the Viking version, unless anyone seriously wants to argue that human sacrifice is acceptable in BDSM relationships). It partly comes down to definitions though. Whether you'd consider serfs to be slaves etc. That's merely of academic interest though. It doesn't actually matter in the context of BDSM relationships. However, I think it's absolutely the case that Master/slave relationships have an element of fantasy involved. But that's not a bad thing. "Fantasy" has many different definitions, depending on context. (Far more than "slave"). And not all of them are perjorative.

RCdc -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 1:14:21 PM)
Is it fantasy? For some yes. For all, there are degrees of fantasy. But no more than there is in any relationship or environment. Consensual slavery? I don't believe in it nor do I practise it. Slavery is basically being under 'whatever/inserthere' control, regardless of choice. Some people make the active decision to continue that relationship or not but regardless, you are enslaved, consent or not. Slavery to me, is simply another word for love. Now that sounds all hearts and flowers, but when it comes down to it, belonging is simply another emotion. You cannot quantify emotions as fantasy or not because they cannot be weighed and measured. the.dark.

agirl -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 1:14:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth this slave didn't invent the terms "consensual slavery" or "Master/slave relationship". she used them after learning about them at the ripe old age of 36. this slave discovered a sub-group of folks within the general population that establish what they refer to as D/s and M/s relationships...an alternative to the conventional, socially accepted marriages and other egalitarian-based pairings. she found out that folks referred to themselves in all manner of ways, mostly "submissive", "dominant" and "switch", in order to facilitate pairings that fulfilled both parties. some folks even went so far as to differentiate between Dom/sub and Master/slave as to their preferred relationship style...although for some, the label is the only discernable difference between the two. Like beth..........the terms were already out there by the time I strolled along. The part in bold was the interesting part for me, not any notion of being a a slaveor being a submissive but these were the terms it was all couched in. It's a clear reality that I live my life under someone else's authority. I chose it and just do it. There's nothing remotely complicated about it and it's quite easy to explain. It's not a fantasy , it's simply a way of relating. Quite boring actually....lol agirl

cpK69 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 1:16:10 PM)
Ah, I understand what you mean. There are times when I just want to blurt out, “Who are you trying to convince?” On the other hand, there are times when I feel like asking, “What would it take to convince you?” Either way, I enjoy a good challenge; it’s what keeps me coming back for more. [:)] Kim Side note: both "you"s ment in general.

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