RE: Reality or fantasy?

RE: Reality or fantasy? (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 5:26:57 PM)
quote: ...Or are you saying it shouldn't be discussed at all?... never said or implied any such thing. if that is what you inferred from this slave's intercourse with kittinsol, then you misunderstood what she was trying to say...and apparently, so did she.

kittinSol -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 5:39:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth if that is what you inferred from this slave's intercourse with kittinsol You're ravishing, Beth, but come on, now... we haven't even been formally introduced.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 5:43:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth if that is what you inferred from this slave's intercourse with kittinsol You're ravishing, Beth, but come on, now... we haven't even been formally introduced. awww, shucks, kittin, that's awful sweet of you, but thought we went over this before...sometimes, the same word has more than one meaning...it's all in the context.[;)]

kittinSol -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 5:45:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth it's all in the context.[;)] Detachment, and a sense of humour... now we're getting somewhere [:)] .

marie2 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 7:50:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: ...Or are you saying it shouldn't be discussed at all?... never said or implied any such thing. if that is what you inferred from this slave's intercourse with kittinsol, then you misunderstood what she was trying to say...and apparently, so did she. I must have misread then. I thought or assumed that your comments about people invalidating your relationship (or relationships like yours) were a response to what was being said on this thread.

cpK69 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 7:51:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I am on the space station. I really think that I am on the space station...If I step outside there is nothing but a vacuum. Nothingness, no oxygen and a certain death. When I step out of my space station/bathroom I am greeted by electric light and a breathable atmosphere. The reality of the space station meant nothing. All that it shows that I am prone and have the ability to accept a fictional set of rules or perhaps my nonfiction life is not what was envisioned. Can I really set aside the knowledge that there is a breathable atmospere outside my space station? Isn’t this better stated, your perception of reality, from inside the space station meant nothing? After all, the people standing on the outside, waving for you to come out, still exist, even if you can’t see them. Kim

IrishMist -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 8:07:23 PM)
Ahh Misst, you sure love to stir the cauldron lol. I was very young when I got together with my late husband…I met him when I was 16 and moved in with him two days after I turned 18; against the advice of my parents, I might add. ( He was quite a bit older than me by 23 years ) The time in between when I first met him and when I moved in with him was spent learning about each other…oh yes, he was not hesitant about going after what he wanted, despite the legal aspects of ‘messing’ with a teenager. He had decided he wanted me and as far as he was concerned, that was all there was to it; so he set out to show me that I needed him as much as he wanted me. Learning about each other; a lot of people automatically think in terms of discussing dreams, goals, wants and needs with a partner and seeing if they connect in that area. Not us. Our getting to know each other consisted of …. Him telling me exactly and in great detail, what would be required of me. IF…IF he allowed me to work, all paychecks would go directly into HIS account; I was to have no access, whatsoever, to any form of money/credit. I move into HIS house. It remains HIS house; in HIS name. All bills are in HIS name, he will pay them. He will carry ALL insurance on me; medical, dental, and life. He had his three youngins living with him from a previous marriage ( he had full custody with no visitation for the mother ); I would take over their care, following the rules that he set for them. I was to see to it that they were fed, clothed, given homework help, etc etc. There were quite a few more that were on this master list that he had, but I think you get the general idea. He was, to put it simply…a strong and vocal dictator who wanted things HIS way…no questions asked, no exceptions. Other areas covered the facts that…Yes, he was extremely abusive; physically, mentally and emotionally. He knew it. I knew it. He did not bother to try and hide it; I did not ask him to try and hide it. I LIKED it. I liked abuse. So, in that respect, we were perfect for each other. He could beat on me all he wanted, when he wanted, however he wanted…and in return, he gave me free reign to do the same with him. The only absolute rule he had in this area was that the youngins were to NEVER witness it; and it was a rule he followed for himself also. He never, not once in 15 years, laid a hand on me in front of them; nor did he ever, not once in 15 years, ever put me down in front of them. So. Here I am with a man, a lot older than me, with three youngins, and I agreed to his wishes. When I got pregnant, I actually legally signed over total custody and guardianship to him. He did not even have to ask me to do it; I did it on my own simply because…that’s the way he wanted it, so that’s the way it was. If I had one day decided that I was tired of him and wanted to leave…it would be without her. So, Here I am, living with a man, raising a family….and having no life of my own…or at least that is what I was constantly told by friends and family. If I remember correctly, my sister told me ( when HE was in the hospital when they first diagnosed him with cancer ) that it was time I ended the cycle of abuse and left the miserable son of a bitch. I laughed at her. Literally. My words to her were “ do you really see me as so weak and useless that I could only stay with a man because you think I am unable to leave?” She could not understand the pull he had over me. Not fear. But total adoration and admiration for a man who had gone out of his way to help an out of control psychotic who was bent on destroying herself and those around her. You are probably wondering what all this has to do with what you posted. Well , let me say that I disagree with what you said. That man OWNED me; mind body and soul; totally, and without complaint. That man could and DID beat me on a regular basis…and I am not talking about these ‘pre arranged scenes that everyone else thinks of’ I DID…figuratively and literally…give up all rights to be with him. Believe me; the reality of facts that make up my past are in no way fantasy or fiction.

cpK69 -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/2/2009 10:28:38 PM)
I don’t think the question should be ‘Is this slavery?’ as much as it should be, ‘What is the cause of the slavery?’ People can be slaves to many things; their jobs, their families… Slavery is more about forgoing needs, and personal desire, than being physically held captive; therefore, I believe it is always consensual. Whether or not the person realizes they are doing it, is irrelevant. It seems to me, fear is a common factor in keeping someone a slave, but I think the actual cause has more to do with purpose. (Still contemplating) Bottom line is, when one person allows their needs and personal desires to be dictated to them by someone/thing, other then themselves, they are a slave, and that which does the dictating is Master. Kim

eyesopened -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 4:35:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear The actual slavery/ownership is real enough between those involved but not real or illegal as far as the law goes. However the dynamic you live is very real if you are living it 24/7 and especially if you keep reality checks going for all those involved. It is as real as the religious beliefs of those committed to what ever faith and even more fo for the priesthood. It is all a matter of perspective. Just my view which may or may not be in agreement with others.. I agree with KS and as far as the rest of the world goes, they can think what they like as long as they leave me to live my life, if they start preaching and getting hollier than thou, then they can shove their collective heads up a cow's twat and get fucked by a wolly bull... lol I didn't want to read the entire thread as the one it was spun off from became just plain petty. But IronBear has, in my opinion, a solid and logical way of thinking and I tend to agree with him. Let me add this. I have a cat. I didn't purchase the cat, I have no papers of legal ownership but I suppose posession is 9/10s of the law and since I assumed responsibility of the cat, I could be held liable for any mistreatment of the cat. So while there's no legal owneship, there is posession. We can nit pick legalities and semantics until the cows come home and how exactly does that enrich anyone or serve anyone? My Master and I live a real life based on a dynamic of our choosing. It isn't a fantasy if fantasy is defined as an imagined thing. I can say with enthusiasm that the sensation of clothespins on my labia was as real as reality gets. As IronBear said, while not supported under the law, the life we chose is very real and our perception makes it so. The perception of people outside our relationship may not match ours and therefore our dynamic would not exist for them.

AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 4:58:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cpK69 It seems to me, fear is a common factor in keeping someone a slave, but I think the actual cause has more to do with purpose. (Still contemplating) Bottom line is, when one person allows their needs and personal desires to be dictated to them by someone/thing, other then themselves, they are a slave, and that which does the dictating is Master. Kim I agree with the way you put the last line, the only thing I would disagree with is the fear. I'm not enslaved by fear but more by love. The difference between love in a vanilla context and love in M/s is that it becomes power and is used to hold and control one. In the vanilla world, this is considered 'bad' and 'taboo', in our world it is a means to a deeper connection, surrender, etc. There are many Masters I fear, and my fear of them actually prevents their ability to ever enslave me, even though I respect them as Masters. Because the fear becomes a block to me letting go and releasing myself to someone like that. Not that I don't think it is possible to be enslaved by fear in certain contexts. But again it comes back to the semantics of the word slavery, lol. (Here we go again!) There is physical captivity, which could be called enslavement, or there is spiritual enslavement which is a captivity of the heart and soul. I could be captured by nazis in world war 2, and fear would make me obedient, but they would not have my allegiance and loyalty or anything, because they would not have enslaved my heart and soul. When my Master claimed me, He has an acceptance ritual which involves four concepts, which He believes central to M/s: Obedience, Loyalty, Harmony, and Perseverance. Anyway, He asked me which I thought was the least important of those- a hard choice. But I picked Obedience. Why? Because if I were in the first situation I mentioned above- captured by nazis or something, I could obey. But that would not mean they had my soul. So to me, slavery is deeper than merely obeying, or being in a state of physical captivity, it is a spiritual bondage. Invisible chains can be a lot stronger than steel ones.

persephonee -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 5:11:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Since you ask, I'll answer you. Just promise me you won't get upset. Slavery, masterdoms, ownership, 'being property', all those things are fantasies that get enacted in real life. THANK you...srrsly. FINALLY some truth. Can someone spank me now???

kittinSol -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 5:16:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: persephonee Can someone spank me now??? WHACK.

AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 5:40:04 AM)
quote: Slavery, masterdoms, ownership, 'being property', all those things are fantasies that get enacted in real life. I guess we should throw in love, religion, and anything else that can't be seen, touched, tasted, quanitified and yes legalized. Nothing exists it's all fantasy. Thanks for the clarification.

kittinSol -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 5:41:24 AM)
Whatever rocks your metaphorical boat.

AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 6:18:38 AM)
Throughout the animal kingdom, female animals submit to a dominant male. This isn't fantasy it's biology. We might have created a society that tries to pretend that isn't the case and tries to make women the same as men, but that in my opinion is the fantasy. I don't deny that women can achieve as much as men, can be as smart as men, and can attain leadership roles. But neither do I deny the need to be dominated and possessed by a man. I don't care to bicker about semantics, you can call it what you will. Call it slavery, call it thralldom, call it a concubine, call it whatever you want. But it is not fantasy it comes from the most basic intrinsic primal self and is as old as the human race itself (and yes I realize I am talking here only about female slaves, because that is what I am). Do some people do slavery as a fantasy? Sure, and that is up to them if they enjoy that. Others do not do it as a fantasy.

kittinSol -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 6:37:26 AM)
There we go again... look, if you think it's your biological destiny to submit sexually then have at it. If you have that 'primal' need, go for it. But don't presume to speak for the rest of humanity: your experience isn't universal... and need I say it? This isn't Gor. "Il est très doux de scandaliser. Il existe là un petit triomphe pour l'orgueil qui n'est nullement à dédaigner." (DAF)

AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 7:11:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol There we go again... look, if you think it's your biological destiny to submit sexually then have at it. If you have that 'primal' need, go for it. But don't presume to speak for the rest of humanity: your experience isn't universal... and need I say it? This isn't Gor. "Il est très doux de scandaliser. Il existe là un petit triomphe pour l'orgueil qui n'est nullement à dédaigner." (DAF) Who ever said I was Gorean? I'm not. But I'm not sticking my head in the sand about the fact that the human race is part of the animal kingdom and that people have primal instincts. People may choose to not be tied by their primal origins and have risen to heights of civilzation. And it is totally up to others to choose either to rise above the primitive human or to explore it. I do not attempt to "speak for humanity" in their choices. I have said only that there are many types of slavery and that it can be fantasy or it can be real depending on how it is done. Just as love can be real or fake. Anything can be faked. What I object to only is that you attempt to judge someone else's life, that you are not a participant of, see it from the outside, and declare that what they do is not real because you disagree with the word choice. English is a limited language. Perhaps there is not a word that completely encompasses what it is, but the closest words I can come up with is "spiritual slavery." But the point is to understand what the words refer to not to nitpick linguistics.

cantilena -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 7:11:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis This isn't fantasy it's biology. We might have created a society that tries to pretend that isn't the case and tries to make women the same as men, but that in my opinion is the fantasy. Uh boy. I won't even ask the question, because I rather think some of the Dommes here will ask it for me. Forgive me if it already has been asked... I'm afraid to keep reading the thread.

kazzaslave -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 7:13:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InTonguesslave fantasy brings people together - it is when those fantasies are acted out that it becomes reality. that is the nature of bdsm. enslavement is only really enslavement when acceptance is total and glitches dont cause the enslaved or the enslaver to look for the exit door. the exit door is always there its whether you bend to the disparities and continue. if you dont, if you keep the exit door in youre sights, then youre not fully enslaved and you never were. To kazza it's not so much whether or not the exit is kept in sight but whether or not it's possible for the slave to use the exit that defines whether or not she/he is enslaved. It is possible to be aware that the exit is there and still be enslaved. kazza

tazzygirl -> RE: Reality or fantasy? (4/3/2009 7:15:34 AM)
hwta does gor have to do with thie discussion, kittin? make that "what".. lol this "so-not-uber-slave-more-like-dead-head-first-thing-in-the-morning" needs to wake up before even attempting to spell the most basic of words ugh

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