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RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/3/2009 10:47:14 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

This law is awful, yes. But weren't things worse for women in Afghanistan under the Taliban?

And it's funny how three months ago this would undoubtedly have been all George Bush's fault. Now you're merely curious as to the position of "The United States"?

Further, why is this deemed unacceptable in Afghanistan (as I agree it should be) while all the myriads of unspeakable atrocities including the horrific rapes of entire families conducted by the state in Iraq under Saddam & Sons were said to have been absolutely none of our business.

Why the double standards?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Once again, women's bodies are used as a means to a political end. What's the United States' position on this? Are they going to let it pass because it placates those they want to do business with?

Sanity, good points.
I don't agree with this but, I'm not an Afgani.
It's funny, the people who believe in "Multi-Culturalism" and "Diversity" only seem to believe in them when they agree with their outlook on life.
It never ceases to amaze me that people seem to think that the "U.S." should impose our way of life in the internal affairs of foreign countries whether that way of life be the Dem or Repub model.
I'd much rather see the people in my govt. working to improve life in the U.S. like they *should* be doing, not being worried about what goes on in foreign countries while they're on my payroll and time!
After all, if muslims said that we should institute Sharia Law in the U.S. those same people would be saying that muslims should be staying out of the internal affairs of the U.S.
You can't have it both ways!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 21

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/3/2009 10:59:38 AM

MasterShake69

Posts: 752
Joined: 11/30/2005
Status: offline

The US military brought over there own oil to Iraq not the other way around. That the oil contracts Iraqi government gave out wasn't to American company's. Dont let the facts get in the way of your argument.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/rbssEnergyNews/idUKSEO30409320090403
The firms are Russian state oil firm Rosneft (ROSN.MM) and Russian mid-sized oil firm Tatneft (TATN3.MM), Kazakh state-run KazMunaiGas [KMG.UL], Vietnam's Petrovietnam, Angola's state-owned Sonangol, state-run Pakistan Petroleum Ltd. (PPL.KA), Japan Oil, Gas and Metals National Corp (JOGMEC), Cairn Energy PLC (CNE.L) of Britain and state-run Oil India Ltd. [ID:nL1980436]

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

what Americans stole things from Iraq?
who specifically did the stealing?
What were the items stolen?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

MS, the transfer of wealth. Only a few people got a piece of what they stole from Iraq, the fact that us average Joes didn't get any of it doesn't mean money was not made.

T

dont you know it was all about oil?

(in reply to CruelNUnsual)

Post #: 22

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/3/2009 12:12:19 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

i would like to see what those economic reasons were.

Guardian Unlimited | Special reports | Wolfowitz: Iraq war was ...Wolfowitz: Iraq war was about oil.

Oil was the main reason for military action against Iraq, a leading White House hawk has claimed, confirming the worst fears of those opposed to the US-led war.

The US deputy defence secretary, Paul Wolfowitz - who has already undermined Tony Blair's position over weapons of mass destruction (WMD) by describing them as a "bureaucratic" excuse for war - has now gone further by claiming the real motive was that Iraq is "swimming" in oil.

Wolfowitz Doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The doctrine clarified the strategic value of the Middle East and Southwest Asia.

"In the Middle East and Southwest Asia, our overall objective is to remain the predominant outside power in the region and preserve U.S. and Western access to the region's oil."

(in reply to MasterShake69)

Post #: 23

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/3/2009 12:21:39 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
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Fast Reply -

"Multi-culturalism" and "diversity" do not equal a lack of basic human rights like freedom from being beaten to death from a family member. Learning how other countries, cultures and ethnic/religious groups view hte world and their core value systems is a basic tool for better communication, better diplomacy and hopefully, improvements in human rights and a lessening of violence.

Hope has to start somewhere, what better place than here, what better time than now.

*paraphrasing Rage Against the Machine, Evil Empire, "People of the Sun"

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to MasterShake69)

Post #: 24

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/3/2009 12:25:10 PM

SilverMark

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Wolfowitz is a sleazy bastard....one of the few times in my life I reveled in anothers misfortune was when he was FIRED from the World Bank....couldn't have happened to a nicer guy!

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The trouble with ignorance is that it picks up confidence as it goes along.
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It may be your sole purpose in life to simply serve as a warning to others!

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 25

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/3/2009 12:30:55 PM

rulemylife

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Joined: 8/23/2004
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The law is based on Sharia Law and seems to be politically motivated by those needing the support of the Islam fundamentalists and is similar to Pakistan's laws.

LawReader » Blog Archive » Pakistans Islamic Sharia law requires ...
Pakistans Islamic Sharia law requires female victim of rape to have four male witnesses, or she faces prosecution for adultery.

(in reply to RainydayNE)

Post #: 26

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/3/2009 12:36:25 PM

hlen5

Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
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Afghani women have to give it up once every four days by law and Afghani men have to give it up once every four months by law. What's the big deal?? (Yes, I'm being sarcastic!!)

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(in reply to SilverMark)

Post #: 27

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/3/2009 2:45:16 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Joined: 10/11/2006
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We should overthrow the government with a military intervention, root out the extremist, and place a democratically elected government in place.

We should voice our opposition, and stay the fuck out of it.

Choose one but the US needs to be consistant in what it does. Either it is okay to meddle in the affairs of other nations, or it is not.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to RainydayNE)

Post #: 28

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/3/2009 3:39:26 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Fast Reply -

"Multi-culturalism" and "diversity" do not equal a lack of basic human rights like freedom from being beaten to death from a family member. Learning how other countries, cultures and ethnic/religious groups view hte world and their core value systems is a basic tool for better communication, better diplomacy and hopefully, improvements in human rights and a lessening of violence.

Hope has to start somewhere, what better place than here, what better time than now.

*paraphrasing Rage Against the Machine, Evil Empire, "People of the Sun"

Ven, that may be so but as an American I'm not willing to pick up a rifle and go to foreign countries to supply them with "human rights" or anything else!
It's up to the people in those countries to do that for themselves. Or not, I really don't care!
"And then they came for me."
"And unbeknownst to *them*, they walked into a deadly trap when the claymore mines went off and decapitated 4 of them, the other six I shot right through the head. with my "mini-14 with the 30 round magazine."
"There was blood and guts everywhere."
"They didn't come anymore after that."

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 29

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/3/2009 6:44:00 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

Well no, military intervention is not usually the best policy. Start with diplomacy and move on to sanctions and cutting of trade agreements.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 30

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/3/2009 7:32:05 PM

MasterShake69

Posts: 752
Joined: 11/30/2005
Status: offline

and who exactly has benefited from the oil? what specific person?

Now Oil makes Iraq able to recover faster and able to stand on its own feet. Thats a benefit that it has over Korea. Second we had our chance at a N Korea invasion in the early 90's. But Bill Clinton allowed jimmy carter to hijack his foreign policy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

i would like to see what those economic reasons were.

Guardian Unlimited | Special reports | Wolfowitz: Iraq war was ...Wolfowitz: Iraq war was about oil.

Oil was the main reason for military action against Iraq, a leading White House hawk has claimed, confirming the worst fears of those opposed to the US-led war.

The US deputy defence secretary, Paul Wolfowitz - who has already undermined Tony Blair's position over weapons of mass destruction (WMD) by describing them as a "bureaucratic" excuse for war - has now gone further by claiming the real motive was that Iraq is "swimming" in oil.

Wolfowitz Doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The doctrine clarified the strategic value of the Middle East and Southwest Asia.

"In the Middle East and Southwest Asia, our overall objective is to remain the predominant outside power in the region and preserve U.S. and Western access to the region's oil."

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 31

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/3/2009 8:22:02 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Why? Because our society and culture feels that it is wrong? In similar situations those things were done and it did not change the culture, it only caused more anger and resentment against the West.

Nilla's feel that those involved in BDSM are anything from degenerates to psychologically imbalanced and want to force those involved to act how they feel is the right way. What is the difference here?

I truly feel that is a culture/nation is going to evolve beyond certain practices, it must be done with all the horrific pitfalls that come with it. Otherwise what motivates them to change, other than coercion?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Well no, military intervention is not usually the best policy. Start with diplomacy and move on to sanctions and cutting of trade agreements.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 32

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/3/2009 10:25:52 PM

RainydayNE

Posts: 978
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline

sure yeah, it's up to the people in the countries to decide, but what happens when a group that's being systematically disenfranchised doesn't have the RIGHT to decide? that's often the case for women in these countries. they are obligated to vote the way their husbands do, if they're allowed to go vote at all.
i think the word "democracy" should be applied loosely here. just because you have a vote doesn't mean you're REALLY a democracy. =p how many countries where democracy has supposedly taken hold have then had those votes overturned by military coups that later set up dictators or something else?

women IN AFGHANISTAN have been fighting for 1) support from people outside Afghanistan, and 2) to improve their situation. this is a gigantic step back for them.
it's not so much us stepping in their business as it is them ASKING for our help. i don't see anything wrong with that.
things were worse for women under the Taliban, yeah, but with laws like this being passed, things could be headed right back.

it's very easy to get on a high horse and yack about double standards in multiculturalism, but you have women WITHIN THE CULTURE who don't think this is right. it's not about outsiders imposing Americanism, it's about people within the culture who want to change it. this is very COMMON. alot of muslim women really don't agree with their status. problem is, nobody wants to listen to them. if they ask for our help, what is wrong with helping?

of course the US reaction is merely "concern." nice.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 33

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/4/2009 12:06:39 AM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Why? Because our society and culture feels that it is wrong? In similar situations those things were done and it did not change the culture, it only caused more anger and resentment against the West.

I was responding to Popeye in a hypothetical scneario, rather than military intervention use the other methods.

Nilla's feel that those involved in BDSM are anything from degenerates to psychologically imbalanced and want to force those involved to act how they feel is the right way. What is the difference here?

Sorry, you lost me on this one?

I truly feel that is a culture/nation is going to evolve beyond certain practices, it must be done with all the horrific pitfalls that come with it. Otherwise what motivates them to change, other than coercion?

Could you elaborate more?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Well no, military intervention is not usually the best policy. Start with diplomacy and move on to sanctions and cutting of trade agreements.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 34

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/4/2009 5:53:07 AM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

This law is awful, yes. But weren't things worse for women in Afghanistan under the Taliban?

And it's funny how three months ago this would undoubtedly have been all George Bush's fault. Now you're merely curious as to the position of "The United States"?

Further, why is this deemed unacceptable in Afghanistan (as I agree it should be) while all the myriads of unspeakable atrocities including the horrific rapes of entire families conducted by the state in Iraq under Saddam & Sons were said to have been absolutely none of our business.

Why the double standards?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Once again, women's bodies are used as a means to a political end. What's the United States' position on this? Are they going to let it pass because it placates those they want to do business with?

It was NEVER acceptable in Iraq but recall Saddam needed no 'law' passed to do as he pleased. This is a political move within the confines of their short term political self-interest. You argue apple and oranges. This is actual legal parlimentarian legislation which is actually worse...state sanction.

BTW, when no WMD's were found, the war became about Saddam's brutal regime plus he wasn't raping every 'wife' or did Iraq 'sanction' the raping of a man's wife. So as usual...standards 'evolve' according to ones political and military goals.

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 35

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/4/2009 6:05:41 AM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Wolfowitz is a sleazy bastard....one of the few times in my life I reveled in anothers misfortune was when he was FIRED from the World Bank....couldn't have happened to a nicer guy!

He couldn't resist the feeling of entitlement that he bring his 'woman' with him at a big raise.

There are those in high places that will tell you that we actually went into Iraq because Saddam was making moves to start a middle-eastern oil exhange...based on the EURO.

The bankers by far most of which who have hung their financial hats on the dollar...couldn't let that happen.

Ben Frankiln was asked what was THE SINGLE biggest reason for our revolt against Britain. "It was because the crown would NOT allow us a FREE and HONEST money system." (i.e., remaining forever slave to borrowing ALL of our currency from the bank of England)

The private portion of ownership of the Fed, and its power to print money (US currency)...also couldn't let that happen.

(in reply to SilverMark)

Post #: 36

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/4/2009 6:32:26 AM

RainydayNE

Posts: 978
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Why? Because our society and culture feels that it is wrong? In similar situations those things were done and it did not change the culture, it only caused more anger and resentment against the West.

not because OUR society things it's wrong, because there are organizations WITHIN the culture who feel that it is wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Nilla's feel that those involved in BDSM are anything from degenerates to psychologically imbalanced and want to force those involved to act how they feel is the right way. What is the difference here?

this doesn't have anything to do with this at all. "vanilla" people can have whatever opinion they want but 1) i don't see commercials on TV saying "we need to force those crazy kinky people to go back to missionary style sex!" so they're keeping their opinions to themselves, and 2) if Dom/mes were keeping subs/slaves against their will or not giving them the right to make a decision, then yeah, something would be wrong. =p
that is the way alot of women in this situation feel. they don't have the right to say something is wrong, whether or not they think it is. heck, America was a "democratic country" when you had Jim Crow and poll taxes going on against black people. having a vote doesn't really mean anything. if a woman in Afghanistan has the technical "right" to vote, but her husband/family, within the confines of their own home, threaten to beat/kill her if she goes, then what?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
I truly feel that is a culture/nation is going to evolve beyond certain practices, it must be done with all the horrific pitfalls that come with it. Otherwise what motivates them to change, other than coercion?

people in afghanistan and their allies are trying to point this situation out for what it is. i still think if people within the culture think it's wrong, but the "system," a la male privilege doesn't want them to be heard, they have every right to seek help outside their culture. and if they ask us, we have every right to help.

i find it somewhat unnerving how easy it is for people to explain this away.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 37

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/4/2009 6:48:55 AM

StrangerThan

Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline

Exactly.

The diversity and tolerance crowd are the most inconsistent people on the face of the earth when it comes to tolerance. They're also the most likely to decide for you what you should think.

I think it's sad that anyone has to legally define sex in law. I think countries owned by religion are often places where you find such crap and find most abuse of human rights. I also think the US isn't the police force of the world, no matter what people like George Bush believes, nor what people like the d and t crowd believes. I think the d and t folks are exactly the type of people who will condemn something like this then turn around and refuse to find common ground between the religion and the decapitation of a wife for no other reason than to keep their idea of tolerance intact.

_____________________________

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(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 38

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/4/2009 6:57:46 AM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE

people in afghanistan and their allies are trying to point this situation out for what it is. i still think if people within the culture think it's wrong, but the "system," a la male privilege doesn't want them to be heard, they have every right to seek help outside their culture. and if they ask us, we have every right to help.

i find it somewhat unnerving how easy it is for people to explain this away.

You are correct young lady. Philosophers have for some time now advised that no one need be...slave to any culture.

(in reply to RainydayNE)

Post #: 39

RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/4/2009 8:52:00 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

It's funny, the "Human Rights" crowd never says anything about the "Human Rights" of American Citizens not to have our country over run with illegal aliens.
Perhaps they think we have "enough" "Human Rights" and should give up some?
One thing they surely don't lack is inconsistancy.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 40

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