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RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/4/2009 11:01:07 AM

Vendaval

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FYI -

Not all of us who are for Human Rights think that illegal immigration is a good thing. I view it as being exploitative for the immigrants and damaging to the country where this is happening. It is a loose-loose situation for the most part, except for those who profit from an economic siutation one step above legalized slavery.

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RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/4/2009 11:43:48 AM

CruelNUnsual

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

The US military brought over there own oil to Iraq not the other way around. That the oil contracts Iraqi government gave out wasn't to American company's. Dont let the facts get in the way of your argument.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/rbssEnergyNews/idUKSEO30409320090403
The firms are Russian state oil firm Rosneft (ROSN.MM) and Russian mid-sized oil firm Tatneft (TATN3.MM), Kazakh state-run KazMunaiGas [KMG.UL], Vietnam's Petrovietnam, Angola's state-owned Sonangol, state-run Pakistan Petroleum Ltd. (PPL.KA), Japan Oil, Gas and Metals National Corp (JOGMEC), Cairn Energy PLC (CNE.L) of Britain and state-run Oil India Ltd. [ID:nL1980436]

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterShake69

what Americans stole things from Iraq?
who specifically did the stealing?
What were the items stolen?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

MS, the transfer of wealth. Only a few people got a piece of what they stole from Iraq, the fact that us average Joes didn't get any of it doesn't mean money was not made.

T

dont you know it was all about oil?

In case you missed it, I was being sarcastic

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RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/4/2009 11:45:45 AM

CruelNUnsual

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Well no, military intervention is not usually the best policy. Start with diplomacy and move on to sanctions and cutting of trade agreements.

yes, thats been very succesful when its been tried. Oh...wait

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RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/4/2009 12:35:51 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

FYI -

Not all of us who are for Human Rights think that illegal immigration is a good thing. I view it as being exploitative for the immigrants and damaging to the country where this is happening. It is a loose-loose situation for the most part, except for those who profit from an economic siutation one step above legalized slavery.

Ven, I agree I'd just like to see them be more vocal against illegal aliens.
On the one hand they say they believe in "law and order" but when it comes to illegal aliens they seem to have a blind spot. Not very good for their credibility!
As KittinSol said so eloquently last year, "all laws should be enforced."

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RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/4/2009 11:54:26 PM

MasterShake69

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In Afghanistan its been without a centralized power in control for about 30 years since it had its king. Expectations are far lower for Afghanistan and its development into a western style democracy. Seeing things like what they tried to do is not and should not be unexpected.

On your Iraq point...His kids were very brutal and raped and killed at will Iraq, was always originally about Saddams regime that needed to end. Saddams quest for WMD along with other things was one of many reasons for regime change.

http://www.mafhoum.com/press3/109P6.htm
Sunday September 1, 2002
The Observer
On no issue are they more hardline than on the question of war with Iraq. Indeed, as long ago as January 1998 many of the leading neo-conservatives now enjoying positions of power in the Bush administration - including the Under Secretary for Arms Control John Bolton; Pentagon Defence Policy Board chair Richard Perle; Rumsfeld and his deputy Paul Wolfowitz - put their names to a letter to then President Bill Clinton, arguing that he should make the removal of Saddam and his regime from power an aim of American foreign policy. They receive vocal support from a phalanx of right-wing lobby groups, newspaper columnists and influential figures such as former CIA director James Woolsey, another signatory to the 1998 letter. Woolsey, like other key neoconservatives - Bush included - believes America should press ahead with plans to depose Saddam and set about 'de-Baathising' Iraq in the same way the allies de-Nazified Germany after the Second World War. Indeed Woolsey and his friends believe we are already in the middle of a new world war, which demands 'regime change' across the region, beginning with Iraq. 'We have to stop regarding the region as a gasoline station for our SUVs and move the nations of the Mid-East to decent government. Outside Turkey and Israel, the region has governments that are pathological predators or vulnerable autocracies and we need to change that,' he says. 'We should give Arabs the same hope that we've given Germans, Japanese, Russians and other countries that moved from autocracies and dictatorships towards democracy in the twentieth century. We need to work on that process for the Arab world too.'

[/quote]
It was NEVER acceptable in Iraq but recall Saddam needed no 'law' passed to do as he pleased. This is a political move within the confines of their short term political self-interest. You argue apple and oranges. This is actual legal parlimentarian legislation which is actually worse...state sanction.

BTW, when no WMD's were found, the war became about Saddam's brutal regime plus he wasn't raping every 'wife' or did Iraq 'sanction' the raping of a man's wife. So as usual...standards 'evolve' according to ones political and military goals.
[/quote]

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RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/5/2009 3:55:29 AM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Why? Because our society and culture feels that it is wrong? In similar situations those things were done and it did not change the culture, it only caused more anger and resentment against the West.

not because OUR society things it's wrong, because there are organizations WITHIN the culture who feel that it is wrong.

If that is the case, it should be within their culture to correct it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Nilla's feel that those involved in BDSM are anything from degenerates to psychologically imbalanced and want to force those involved to act how they feel is the right way. What is the difference here?

quote:

this doesn't have anything to do with this at all. "vanilla" people can have whatever opinion they want but 1) i don't see commercials on TV saying "we need to force those crazy kinky people to go back to missionary style sex!" so they're keeping their opinions to themselves, and 2) if Dom/mes were keeping subs/slaves against their will or not giving them the right to make a decision, then yeah, something would be wrong. =p
that is the way alot of women in this situation feel. they don't have the right to say something is wrong, whether or not they think it is. heck, America was a "democratic country" when you had Jim Crow and poll taxes going on against black people. having a vote doesn't really mean anything. if a woman in Afghanistan has the technical "right" to vote, but her husband/family, within the confines of their own home, threaten to beat/kill her if she goes, then what?

You mean you don't see how many groups that are out there that are very vocal in their belief that wiitwd is wrong, perverted, sick, and a few other choice words that I could put out there?

They aren't keeping their opinions to themselves. In fact, in a lot of places, they are rather loud about passing certain laws and zoning restrictions. Any idea of how many kink related businesses are shut down this way?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
I truly feel that is a culture/nation is going to evolve beyond certain practices, it must be done with all the horrific pitfalls that come with it. Otherwise what motivates them to change, other than coercion?

quote:

people in afghanistan and their allies are trying to point this situation out for what it is. i still think if people within the culture think it's wrong, but the "system," a la male privilege doesn't want them to be heard, they have every right to seek help outside their culture. and if they ask us, we have every right to help.

i find it somewhat unnerving how easy it is for people to explain this away.

While we may have a "right" to help, it's not our obligation to help. We have got to get past the thinking that it's our job to police or save the world. We have to start taking care of the issues at home and allow other countries to do the same. We can't continue to throw money or military support at every place in the world that has their own inner struggles.

Does the law suck? Yes. Guess what? We have laws on our own books that suck, too. In South Carolina, a husband can still beat his wife on the courthouse steps on Sunday. People don't do that anymore because the culture changed. Not because someone else swept in and told us we had to. It was our evolution as a society.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 4/5/2009 4:02:10 AM >

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RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/5/2009 6:02:20 AM

OrionTheWolf

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I find it disturbing that people will complain about these situations, and then act surprised when military intervention is used. Leave people alone and we need to stop forcing our morals and cultural ethics on countries half way around the world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE
i find it somewhat unnerving how easy it is for people to explain this away.

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RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/5/2009 7:53:46 AM

RainydayNE

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uh wow. yeah. okay

i'm not saying we HAVE to go in and fix every problem we see.
i'm saying if people WANT to do that, then they can and there isn't any point in going "omgz we're not the police of the world."
if people within the culture think something is wrong, but they do not have the power to do much about it, i don't think it's wrong for them to ask for help from someone who could POTENTIALLY help.
i'm not preaching military intervention, i don't have any idea what it would take to fix this.
but people should see it for what it is.
it isn't us forcing americanism on them, there are women in afghanistan who want this to change. that is all.

chill out.

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RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/5/2009 8:02:44 AM

OrionTheWolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE

uh wow. yeah. okay

i'm not saying we HAVE to go in and fix every problem we see.
i'm saying if people WANT to do that, then they can and there isn't any point in going "omgz we're not the police of the world."

Sure there is a point in saying that because interference in another culture or nation is a slippery slope. Look how many used that Saddam was a ruthless dictator, to go into Iraq (after the lie was revealed). Why not examine some other areas of intervention where our intentions were good.

quote:

if people within the culture think something is wrong, but they do not have the power to do much about it, i don't think it's wrong for them to ask for help from someone who could POTENTIALLY help.

It is not wrong, but those people need to suffer and fight for their rights. They need to win a majority of support internally first. Otherwise whatever is done will not really last, and it could further destablize things to make them worse (see my comment about looking into previous areas of intervention).

quote:

i'm not preaching military intervention, i don't have any idea what it would take to fix this.

I did not believe that you were advocating military action, but to raise the clamor you will likely draw in people who will support and propose military action to change things. Again I emphasize it is a slippery slope.

quote:

but people should see it for what it is.
it isn't us forcing americanism on them, there are women in afghanistan who want this to change. that is all.

chill out.

Those women can leave. The culture supports what is going on. Just because your morals and ethics do not line up with them is not a good reason to interfere in an internal matter. Support those women leaving and give them the ability to do so. Either that or the culture needs to feel some kind of suffering so they can see it is wrong.

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RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/5/2009 8:10:41 AM

RainydayNE

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oh for the love of beans

"Just because your morals and ethics do not line up with them is not a good reason to interfere in an internal matter"

this statement is constantly repeated and nobody seems to understand a word of what i'm saying. it's not about MY morals and ethics, it's about THEIRS. the WOMEN in afghanistan who think this is wrong. there ARE women over there who think it is wrong, just like i and many others think it's wrong. they HAVE been working within their culture to fix things. america flaked off in afghanistan a long time ago, and most of the work done there post-taliban was done by the people THERE.

my morals and ethics appear to line up in some way with many of the Afghan women voicing outrage over this. not all of the women can leave. that's not even a viable alternative for the vast majority of them. throwing that out as the solution to their problems is like standing across the grand canyon with a canteen and waving it at a guy dying of thirst. =p
do you have any idea how these women live?

if they ask us for some sort of assistance (i would say that muslim women in various parts of the world have suffered PLENTY) i don't think there's anything wrong with that. if it's sending in a diplomat to have a discussion with the politicians, that's still assistance. not everything HAS to boil down to military intervention.

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RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/5/2009 2:04:56 PM

slvemike4u

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Well in case anyone wanted to know Pres.Karzai has ordered a review of the new "Family law".Karzai further stated "the western media have either mistranslated or taken incorrect information and then published it if there is anything in contradiction with our Constitution or Sharia,or freedoms granted by the Constitution,we will take action with the clerics of the country"
If changes are needed ,he said the the bill would be sent back to Parliament
It would seem world wide condemmation can illicit a response...

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RE: Critics assail Afghan law that 'legalizes rape' - 4/5/2009 4:25:11 PM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RainydayNE

uh wow. yeah. okay

i'm not saying we HAVE to go in and fix every problem we see.
i'm saying if people WANT to do that, then they can and there isn't any point in going "omgz we're not the police of the world."

I assure you that if there were private citizens interested in doing so, they would. I'm not seeing many actually taking that up. Have you booked your flight?

quote:

if people within the culture think something is wrong, but they do not have the power to do much about it, i don't think it's wrong for them to ask for help from someone who could POTENTIALLY help.

Nope. Nothing wrong in asking. Doesn't mean we have to say "yes" either. In fact, unless we were to actually do (remember, that's a verb of action) something, we don't really have power, either.

quote:

i'm not preaching military intervention, i don't have any idea what it would take to fix this.

That's good because military intervention wouldn't do that.

quote:

but people should see it for what it is.
it isn't us forcing americanism on them, there are women in afghanistan who want this to change. that is all.

Oddly enough, in this country's short history, women have wanted change here, too. It wasn't that long ago that we were seen as powerless. Do you think it was men who got us where we are today? No! It was the same powerless women who stood up for our rights and allowed us not to be oppressed.

It was women in this country who did that, and I believe it is women who can do that in other countries, too. Women can be strong, courageous creatures, with an inner spirit to fight. They don't need men or some foreign country to save them. Actually, allowing them to believe they do, might be the greater infliction.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 4/5/2009 4:26:19 PM >

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