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RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 8:00:18 AM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

People act as if the gun is a magic button.

Not everyone has the gumption to shot/kill and then the gun gets taken and the vic is shot or pistol whipped,etc.

She can`t walk around with it in her hand all day as if was ass hole repellent.

Everyone`s got to sleep at some point.

Get out and get help.That`s the advise to give vulnerable people.Not get a gun.



Owner I always agree with you, but not one this one. I am not vulnerable, I was, until I made my way to the Trading Post and got my first handgun. From personal experience, and I'll keep it brief, I was awoken one night by three drunken idiots in my kitchen that knew my husband ( now ex) was gone and assumed I was too. Wrong assholes. My first handgun back then was a .38 s&w revolver, I grabbed it from under my pillow, yep, the pillow, and shaking inside but not showing it ouwardly I hope, I faced them with it and with a firm voice said get the fuck out of my house before  you need to be carried out. Holy hell my whole body was high on adreniline, fear, nerves, I don't know, but I do know they booked it. I called 911, cops got them running throught the woods and all were arrested. So don't  tell me that guns don't work. What might have happened if a 30 year old woman was alone in that house scantily dressed in nightclothes, and those scumbags found me? Well, thanks to my gun, I won't have to know, and unless you are a woman I don't think you really can get how that piece of steel feels in yoir hand when faced when faced with the lowest element of the human race. It feels damn good.    

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 8:01:01 AM   
KaineD


Posts: 497
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

          You don't pay much attention to the news, do you, Kaine?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/20/french-nursery-school-sho_n_177303.html


        There also seem to be a lot more riots in France.  Then we have that treasured history of the mob chopping people's heads off.

     


Pointing out a rare one off isn't going to make your point very well.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 8:05:23 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		         Two weeks ago, Kaine.  Maybe leaping to conclusions, and making bullshit assertions, is another part of the reason you aren't able to persuade?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 8:43:25 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Sometimes those families are destroyed because the female could not defend herself. I do not believe guns are the solution to Domestic Violence, but they are an equalizer a smaller person can use when faced with imminent bodily injury from a physically larger attacker.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The problem comes from folks mixing the domestic violence debate with the 2nd amendment debate, with pro gun types believing guns solve DV problems.They don`t.They destroy families in the blink of an eye.




So again,the hand gun is a magic bullet?

What "if" the guy gets the drop?What "if" she shoots someone else by mistake?

What "if" a different sceinatio other that the typical NRA "bad guy gets shot" one plays out?

I`m not against anyone having a gun.It`s the know-nothing yeah-woos giving bad advice that I have an issue with.



Hand guns are made for killing,ain`t no good for nothin`n else.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/5/2009 8:55:09 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 8:45:05 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

America - the country where the ownership of firearms is a right, but healthcare is a privilege.

Something is very wrong there.


Perhaps you would be more comfortable in....ohhh, let's say.... England.


Actually, I think he already is. Or is that a joke that went over my head?




Something like that...

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 8:54:18 AM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
        Two weeks ago, Kaine.  Maybe leaping to conclusions, and making bullshit assertions, is another part of the reason you aren't able to persuade?

No he is fighting a sense of national romance and nostalgia and that is virtually impossible Rich.


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∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 8:55:37 AM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

The problem is not guns, but a culture that promotes violence as a solution.

We see "violence as a solution" in movies, on TV, in lyrics.   The glorification, and hence desensitization, of people from a young age to violence is where we find the root cause of what everyone wants to call "gun violence."

It is easier to blame a symptom rather than address the root cause.  



Oh that is such complete and utter nonsense.

Every western nation has violence in movies, tvs, video games, lyrics.  But you don't see school shootings in France, do you?

Blaming the media is so cheap and doesn't get anywhere near the root cause of what is almost exclusively an American problem.


Hell yes, I see lots of violence in France...just because they don't use guns doesn't mean there isn't violence...extreme violence at that.

I didn't blame the media...I blamed a culture of accepts and glorifies violence.   Whether for Allah or for cheap entertainment effects, the desensitization of people towards violence IS the main reason for violence.  

Just think about it...when movies start showing gore,  people puked.   Nowadays they just grab some more popcorn.




< Message edited by Crush -- 4/5/2009 9:16:08 AM >

_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 8:56:01 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

America - the country where the ownership of firearms is a right, but healthcare is a privilege.

Something is very wrong there.


Perhaps you would be more comfortable in....ohhh, let's say.... England.


I'm pretty comfortable where I am, thanks.  I love my free healthcare.  The Troubles are over, we don't hand guns out like they're candy, so that's another thing I don't have to worry about.



Ohhh and by the way, everyone has the right to health care. No one is denied when in need.

You see I don't mind getting off my ass, and earning my way. I have full health care, I pay for it myself, I choose the type of coverage, the rights of care are mine not some "master's" right as it is with a nanny state's system.

I also have the right to defend myself and my property by all means available. A gun if I so choose. You see I'm about my personal rights not about your supposed comforts. If you wish to surrender your rights to have your comfort, so be it. As I have stated before, the slave mentality is becoming rather popular in select places across the globe.

Enjoy...


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 8:59:42 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		So the chemotherapy at an ER is healthcare?

C`mon Bull.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 9:04:34 AM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline 		Ya know,
A lot of things were "made for killing" but have evolved into something else.  Pistols are meant for killing...but they are also an Olympic event.  They are also a sport for many people.  And yes, they are a layer of defense for self protection.

There are MANY things that were developed for killing, but have evolved into something else as well.  Rockets were developed for killing.  Now used for space exploration too.     Atomic bombs were meant for killing...atomic power is used to keep the lights on.  Clubs became baseball bats.

And lots of things that weren't meant to kill  that are used to kill.  Cars.  Tire irons.  Golf clubs.  Dynamite.

Lots of things were designed initially to maim/kill/evade/destroy/protect.  But they are also used to do other things as well.





_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 9:08:57 AM   
Crush


Posts: 1031
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

Another shooting.

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/19094064/detail.html

quote:

Harper said Poplawski was wearing a bulletproof vest, armed with an assault-style rifle, a pistol and a significant amount of ammunition, as he fired rounds out of his window toward police officers.


Why is a man like that able to get his hands on an assault-style rifle?


So how do you defend yourself against someone who has a rifle/pistol/club?  Just call 9-1-1 and hope they get there in time? 

----------------------

An armed person WON'T not survive every encounter with a bad guy.  But an armed person has a chance at surviving MORE encounters than an unarmed person.



_____________________________

"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain

(in reply to KaineD)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 9:14:02 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

No he is fighting a sense of national romance and nostalgia and that is virtually impossible




        And the arguments that are being brought are just as romantic and delusionary as those being challenged.  Lead with good arguments, not an emotional appeal.  C'mon, Full.  The post I was replying to used France to talk about what was called "what is almost exclusively an American problem. "  Two weeks ago in France, teenagers opened up on people outside a nursery school.  So much for the culture argument.

       Had the poster instead dumped the "America baa-aaad" mentality, it would have been possible to make a case that French gun laws prevented a much greater tragedy.  Clearly a missed opportunity for rational discussion.  Oh well.

     

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 9:16:28 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Remember I think like a "Gorean".

That natural selection thing is a MFer.

I am not anti-health care though and I am actually anti-insurance, I believe most all insurance concepts are the biggest "pansy scheme" ever construed. I actually do believe that preventive medicine keeps us all healtier and should be somehow available to everyone. I just don't believe that health care and gun control are compatible "rights" issues. It was when he made it a "rights" thing I stepped up to speak.



_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 9:20:17 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

So how do you defend yourself against someone who has a rifle/pistol/club?  Just call 9-1-1 and hope they get there in time? 



Be a better shot.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Crush)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 9:22:32 AM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
    And the arguments that are being brought are just as romantic and delusionary as those being challenged.  Lead with good arguments, not an emotional appeal.  C'mon, Full.  The post I was replying to used France to talk about what was called "what is almost exclusively an American problem. "  Two weeks ago in France, teenagers opened up on people outside a nursery school.  So much for the culture argument.

   Had the poster instead dumped the "America baa-aaad" mentality, it would have been possible to make a case that French gun laws prevented a much greater tragedy.  Clearly a missed opportunity for rational discussion.  Oh well.

There is another ingredient to these types of events that needs to be explored which is separate from the gun control issue i.e. what is causing such disillusionment. That however doesn't take away from the fact most of these events have been caused by adolescents having access to their parents weapons. A hazard that could have been easily mitigated by the parents not having weapons in the first place.

It's always been pure fantasy in my opinion that armed personnel in the area could have prevented it. Metal detectors and other security measures perhaps but not an armed response because an armed response is just that 'a response' i.e. the thing that happens after the tragedy has occurred in the first place.

I've known people shot with pellet guns, starter pistols etc. it isn't nice but not nearly as dramatic as bullets. Kids are arseholes sometimes should we expect anything else from the immature? It comes down to a risk assessment: what is the risk what are the possible consequences, how can the risks be mitigated through legislation.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 4/5/2009 9:38:45 AM >

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∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 11:17:07 AM   
UPSG


Posts: 331
Joined: 1/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: allyC

(FR) If someone wants to kill another person, they'll do it.  Enough people are stabbed, strangled, or beaten to death every year to prove it.   An automobile is a two ton weapon.  It kills and injures so many people a year it is absolutely ridiculous and yet 16 year olds can just jump behind the wheel after a short class and test and whee!  They're off!  Where is the public outcry about vehicles?  Should we ban them too 'cause let's face it - they kill a LOT more people than guns do due to careless use. The right to bear arms is one that is expected to already exist for Americans.  The constitution states that it shall not be infringed.   It is pretty simple to me.  Our forefathers understood how tyranny and oppression worked.  They lived through it.  They decided that they didn't want to form a nation that would be ripe for that sort of thing and so they provided that the right to bear arms should not be infringed..  If guns are made illegal, than only outlaws will have guns with the exception of the military and  law enforcement but strangely enough - being in the military or being a law enforcement officer doesn't magically make you a good person either.  So why should I, as a law abiding citizen, allow my country to render me defenseless against my government?  Against my law enforcement officers?  News flash - cops and soldiers commit crimes too.   I agree that as a self defense weapon in the home, a shotgun is your best bet.  But what about when I am grocery shopping and walking to my car?  I've been robbed in that kind of situation... funny thing.  I was robbed by a guy who bought his gun illegally and used it to take what belonged to me (and at that point, I feared for my life). Never again will I not at least have the opportunity to defend myself when I believe my life is in danger.  It took me being in a life threatening situation three times before I realized that the guns weren't evil - the people using them were (and yup, one of 'em was a cop)  Some of the worst crime rates in this country exist in states and cities with the strictest gun control laws.  If you render people defenseless, they become easy prey, period.   I'd rather not be. Well wishes, Cav's ally 


I don't think our "forefathers" were up against medium machine guns. (e.g. M60's)

People can kill with knives (terrible wounds too), you are right and I won't disagree. But the weaponry you have does make a significant tactical difference. A military fire team will have a SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) and a M203 (M16 capable of firing grenades with extreme accuracy). The carnage a fire team can cause entering a building (say... a high school) is a lot more than 4 or 5 people armed with butcher knives can cause.

That said, I don't buy into the idea you should worry about an attacker only taking your pistol away from you (one of 59's points). Yeah, if I'm stuck out in the woods with a serial killer I'll take my chances holding a pistol. Sure, there's a chance I could be disarmed, but there's also a chance I won't. I'll go with the more optimistic prediction. Plus, I know in the central city you can call the cops (police station could be right across the street), and unless you say someone has a gun it could still take 30 minutes to over an hour for a squad car to respond (they're over worked with other calls). From what I've seen, usually (not always) police arrive to tape off the scene of a violent crime. In other words, they tend to come after the fact.





(in reply to allyC)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 11:29:39 AM   
UPSG


Posts: 331
Joined: 1/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

Another shooting.

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/19094064/detail.html

quote:

Harper said Poplawski was wearing a bulletproof vest, armed with an assault-style rifle, a pistol and a significant amount of ammunition, as he fired rounds out of his window toward police officers.


Why is a man like that able to get his hands on an assault-style rifle?


So how do you defend yourself against someone who has a rifle/pistol/club?  Just call 9-1-1 and hope they get there in time? 

----------------------

An armed person WON'T not survive every encounter with a bad guy.  But an armed person has a chance at surviving MORE encounters than an unarmed person.




In fairness to Kaine I think his point was more to do with what a weapon like that can do. "Bad guy" I think is just more a label we like to throw on regular people to make us feel better when they veer into antisocial behavior. I don't think we can separate everyone into bad guy vs good guy. All of us have a little of both within us.

(in reply to Crush)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: No need to hijack - 4/5/2009 12:39:33 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

So again,the hand gun is a magic bullet?


Nope, and I never said that. It is an option.

quote:


What "if" the guy gets the drop?What "if" she shoots someone else by mistake?


So the what if thing is fine for you, but not for others? What if they had vital information that could save thousands?

quote:


What "if" a different sceinatio other that the typical NRA "bad guy gets shot" one plays out?


They do play out, you have offered that side. The NRA is always going to offer a positive spin. Actually since most handgun owners do not take any kind of training course, they have the weapon taken from them. This is why I also advocate safety and training for handgun owners.

quote:


I`m not against anyone having a gun.It`s the know-nothing yeah-woos giving bad advice that I have an issue with.

Hand guns are made for killing,ain`t no good for nothin`n else.



We can agree on this. You see somewhere in the middle will be the best way to go. We have licensing and classes for hunter safety, and do not see a problem with a mandatory one for handgun safety.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 98
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