RE: Unruely slave

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LaTigresse -> RE: Unruely slave (4/9/2009 8:24:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: badlilthang Hello Miss Morrigan, like You probably have read - my son also have ADHD - along with other things...s...ordinary "do this or so help me God" simply does not help...some of these kids/adults live in their own world - have their own pace - and threats does not help much - but instant gratification does. A little price at the end of the day works wonders for my kid - but only if he has done the chores/things on the little list. if he has not done them - no argueing or bitching from me - just no reward...and that effects only him. (one day without his beloved x-box is hell)...s... (OP - did not mean to hi-jack the thread - sorry) I had to smile at the part about living in their own world. Mine is generally a happy place. One that I can completely, not see, the dust bunnies floating around under the dining table and side board, the layer of dust on top. Just can totally not register at all. My adult children are exactly the same. We can start off going into a room to clean and pick up, something that should take 20-30 minutes. End up sitting on the floor reading a book or magazine we found....2 hours later. Then taking a nap on the bed, surrounded by clothes we were going to put away. Nagging and threats never ever worked. Removing regular allowances like, television, going to a friends house, etc...worked well as punishment. Although I always try to fit the punishment to the crime. And rewards when things got done. Even if it was something like making a batch of their favourite cookies.

badlilthang -> RE: Unruely slave (4/9/2009 8:31:52 AM)
yup...sounds like my kid: "please go to your room at get your school bag"... 15 minutes later - "Hey - what are you doing" "playing X-box, mom - why?" "i told you to go up and get your school bag" "ooooooops...coming!" L

MissMorrigan -> RE: Unruely slave (4/9/2009 9:10:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: badlilthang Hello Miss Morrigan, like You probably have read - my son also have ADHD - along with other things...s...ordinary "do this or so help me God" simply does not help...some of these kids/adults live in their own world - have their own pace - and threats does not help much - but instant gratification does. A little price at the end of the day works wonders for my kid - but only if he has done the chores/things on the little list. if he has not done them - no argueing or bitching from me - just no reward...and that effects only him. (one day without his beloved x-box is hell)...s... (OP - did not mean to hi-jack the thread - sorry) Hi Badlilthang (I did read and empathise, not only does my son have ADD but also two forms of dyslexia, ordinary dyslexia plus audio phonic dyslexia). I noticed with my own son (he's now 25) that he did have a selective memory insofar as he'd always know when something good was on offer, such as a forthcoming birthday present, a trip to see a football match or even as far as to remember that I would be coming home with something tasty for dinner. Some may think 'ah, he was pulling the wool over your eyes and trying it on with regard to having ADD', but I can assure anyone that he has been professionally diagnosed, unfortunately not until he had hit his tenth year and then I refused to treat it with medication. Instead of selecting punishments, I had to handle his condition. Set a routine for him to adhere to and teach him to retrain his attention where it was needed otherwise if he was left to his own devises, nothing would be accomplished and the place would look like a bomb had hit it from his starting so many different things and never finishing them Like you, one thing I never did was put him down or make him feel bad for not doing something. His consequence for not doing something I had set for him to do was to have me stand there until he had accomplished it - without my help. People talking to him now that he's an adult would never know that he had ADD, they can spot that he's not as articulate as other people speech-wise and due to his audio phonic dyslexia, but he's the most giving, generous, smart and funny person there is. Yesterday (damnit, I'm tearing up here just thinking about it) he telephoned me to say that he'd passed his theory driving test - that's something I never thought he'd achieve. Sounds such a simple thing and he did it on his second attempt - he did it! I cannot be prouder of him. Something I do want to reiterate, the OP has allowed the mismanagement to creep into their lives and develop into an apathy that is shared by them both, whether he agrees with this or not, the indicators are there. HE has to work WITH her at achieving these goals b/c it isn't as simple as 'I say, you do'. If his own laziness is a factor and it does seem that it is, that will continue to affect her ability to accomplish anything also.

Interesdom -> RE: Unruely slave (4/9/2009 1:54:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan Something I do want to reiterate, the OP has allowed the mismanagement to creep into their lives and develop into an apathy that is shared by them both, whether he agrees with this or not, the indicators are there. HE has to work WITH her at achieving these goals b/c it isn't as simple as 'I say, you do'. If his own laziness is a factor and it does seem that it is, that will continue to affect her ability to accomplish anything also. With this and most of the comments here, I quite agree. The OP has in this case at least as big a problem as his woman. Perhaps it is misplaced dependency or perhaps it is simply inability to lead and direct but it is not helpful. And LONG before threatening to kick her out of her collar, he should have followed through with severe punishments (corporal or otherwise) to get her mind concentrated properly. Anyhow, here's an approach, based on the assumption that she will do what you say when told immediately but not if the task is to be performed later: Start giving almost all her tasks to be performed after a certain time, making sure she (not you) writes the task down, with a time. You can do this with ALL tasks that she is not to do alongside you. Start the delay time at five or ten minutes (whenever you know she is likely to be able to manage), when you will still be around. For example, you tell her "in 5 minutes, I want you to start doing the washing up," or "at 10 past 6, you are to dust the shelves in this room." Make sure she writes this down, with the time. Do NOT allow her to start immediately and do NOT let her keep asking you whether it is time yet. Decide up front how much leeway you will allow (and you may have to check which clock she is using). If the task is started on time, reward her (just a smile and kiss should be enough); if the task is not started on time do NOT remind her, punish her immediately and without further notice (as said by others, the punishment must be something she does not like) then do NOT let her start the task immediately, set another 5 minutes and repeat. If YOU do things right, SHE will learn to start tasks on time. Then you increase the time - probably doubling the time - making sure you will still be around. Repeat 4 until you have a habit of setting her the time and of rewarding/punishing properly ('properly' is when you get a behavioural change). At some point you will have to start making your own list of what you've told her to do but she must maintain the habit of writing down what you tell her to do, with the time it should be started. Now start varying the time - anything from 5 minutes to double her previous time. Keep tasks down to under two hours duration, breaking them up if necessary. Around this time, you will be noticing that not all tasks that she starts get finished, or are done well. Your rewards have to start moving to the end of the task, once you are happy that it is done to your satisfaction. Incomplete tasks must be either reset, with time delay, AND punished. When punishing for a task not completed well, try to make it very different to how you punish for not starting and make it clear what you are punishing for. Keep that up until you feel comfortable that it is working (at least 80% of tasks get started on time). Do not expect to never have to punish - no one is perfect and if you've not punished her for at least 5% of tasks then probably you are not being vigilant or strict enough. Ready for the next stage, you might also have her write down the exact time she starts the task. Now start setting some tasks to be done in a short time frame but when you will not be around. Ideally, you would be back soon but that's not likely to be often possible. When you get back, check if the task has been done, and done properly. If not started, punish first because the task is not done to your satisfaction, then immediately punish for the task not started: she must be aware of the two distinct punishments. Repeat 9, increasing the time frame - and therefore the number of tasks you are setting to be achieved when you are not around. If YOU do things right, you can eventually move to a point where you can feel relaxed at leaving the house with her to complete a number of tasks, with the joy of a bunch of rewards for having done things well and possibly no need to issue a single punishment. That could all take three to twelve months - it's a long slog and up to you whether it is worth it. What I can assure you is that there is no room for you to be lazy or soft on yourself. Personally, I don't like punishing and I don't think you do, either. If we want the life that we want, it is something we can't be lax about, though. A lot of the training is in training the owner. Get the habit of reward/punishment right and she will fall into line. And never, ever, make empty threats. Good luck.

Sanguinarian -> RE: Unruely slave (4/9/2009 2:14:21 PM)
( To the OP ) I don't know if this will help, but as my mother taught me, if it can be done now, then there is no reason or excuse to wait and do it later. So, if you tell her to do something, make a point of having her do it right when you tell her to. That way, there is no excuse aside from disobedience or sheer laziness if it doesn't get done. Works with my own, so thought it might help you.

angeyeuxbleus -> RE: Unruely slave (4/9/2009 2:41:45 PM)
This situation sounds familiar to me, only I was the unruly slave. My master at the time frequently told me to do little things like that, chores and errands for him. In principle, I was happy to do them, however, even when I did everything he wanted, he never gave me the rewards he promised for doing it. In fact, he constantly broke promises and paid very little attention to me in general. He also never punished me for disobeying, even though he threatened to. He was also somewhat inconsistent. He didn't treat me like a slave at all a lot of the time. All of that led me to feel that since obeying would not bring reward and disobeying would not result in punishment, that it didn't matter what I did. Now, you sound like a caring Dom, and I certainly don't intend to accuse you of being that way, but are you certain you are fulfilling her needs as well? I also wonder if your punishments are severe enough if she's not learning from them. Obviously, you don't want to cause serious physical or emotional damage to the one you love, but if she really does want this, then she wants to learn, and she needs you to teach her. Are you consistent, ie always "on"? Do you take the Master/slave dynamic seriously with her? If not, that can cause confusion as well. Do you give her set deadlines for the tasks in question, or do you just tell her to do them? I'm a procrastinator, I tend to get things done faster if I have deadlines. It's also a very distinct possibility that she just isn't cut out to be a full time slave. Maybe she'd rather be in a relationship that isn't 24/7, but with some kink in the bedroom. Or maybe she does want to be a full time slave, and just isn't compatible with you. I just thought I'd share my experience, so that you might not lose something good over a misunderstanding. Good luck. Ange

wordstoponder -> RE: Unruely slave (4/9/2009 4:33:47 PM)
In the past year that I've been with Master, I've noticed that I've sometimes become what you described as an "unruly submissive," not following orders while at the same time whole-heartedly believing that I was truly submissive. Master has tried to "punish" me in several ways, and eventually He had given up. This is when I started doing what I was told. I don't understand why, but when pressured, I snap and act up, stubborn and selfish. As soon as the pressure is gone, I become a good girl. Just food for thought.

AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Unruely slave (4/9/2009 7:50:56 PM)
quote: In the past year that I've been with Master, I've noticed that I've sometimes become what you described as an "unruly submissive," not following orders while at the same time whole-heartedly believing that I was truly submissive. Master has tried to "punish" me in several ways, and eventually He had given up. This is when I started doing what I was told. I don't understand why, but when pressured, I snap and act up, stubborn and selfish. As soon as the pressure is gone, I become a good girl. Just food for thought. This is quite often one of the drawbacks with punishment. There can be a lot of negative fallout, which can make the situation worse not better, or you might fix one problem but create a bunch of others. Trainers who train animals for movies use only positive methods because they need to teach the behaviors fast and they simply have found that they can not achieve the same results when they use punishment. This isn't to say that punishment never works, sometimes it does. Some Masters find it works very well on their slaves. But, it might not work so well on other slaves. Also in order to punish, you have to first allow the bad behavior to occur (which obviously you don't want to have happen). Ideally, you want to manipulate the environment so that the bad behavior never occurs in the first place. In other words (OP), if you know that in the past she has failed to catalog 500+ cds (or however many you have), then don't set her up to disobey you by failing again. Then she is just practicing being disobedient. Have her do 3. Do them with her, praise her for getting them done. Don't let her fail. Next time, make it 5. After that maybe 10. She needs to practice succeeding at obeying you. Be her Master, be her guide, be her teacher, take her by the hand and lead her to be better and to be where and what you want her to be. There is a group- it is vanilla- so don't go over there posting about your slave, lol- but they are all trainers of one kind and another- some, like me work with special needs, some are animal trainers, some are just people like you trying to solve a problem with a loved one, but if you present the difficulties you are having to them (leaving out the M/s part) they will be able to help you brainstorm ideas to teach her how to do what you want. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tagteach/

SailingBum -> RE: Unruely slave (4/9/2009 11:53:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wordstoponder In the past year that I've been with Master, I've noticed that I've sometimes become what you described as an "unruly submissive," not following orders while at the same time whole-heartedly believing that I was truly submissive. Master has tried to "punish" me in several ways, and eventually He had given up. This is when I started doing what I was told. I don't understand why, but when pressured, I snap and act up, stubborn and selfish. As soon as the pressure is gone, I become a good girl. Just food for thought. That would be right about the time I grab you by your hair and dragged you to the door. More food for thought. BadOne

TheDude77 -> RE: Unruely slave (4/10/2009 9:17:24 PM)
Thank you all for your posts. I've used the advice here to create a new training system for my girl, then told her about it to judge her reaction. It will take a long time, but I think we'll be able to salvage the situation. For those interested in involves both positive and negative reinforcement but does not include corporal punishment (my slave does me no good if shes committed to a mental institution).

jaylezbottom -> RE: Unruely slave (4/10/2009 9:24:36 PM)
i currently just lost my Master. i was horrible at following direction. Because of my manipulations to get Her attention, and my dishonesty in almost every aspect of the relationship, i lost Her. i really want to be a good and obediant slave, but i truly think that She is the one i am suppose to serve, She just runs so deep in my heart. i miss Her with all that i am, and knowing that She is looking for another submissive/slave is killing me on the inside. i just want so badly, even if it means that i will not sub or slave to Her again, to just tell me that is going to be ok, i only know how to feel whole because of Her. i do miss Her terribly.

submissivexheart -> RE: Unruely slave (4/10/2009 9:37:35 PM)
ok.. in my eyes... a sub/slave.... shouldnt have problems following directions... if one is truly subsmissive or a slave..... all they want to do is serve.....

jaylezbottom -> RE: Unruely slave (4/10/2009 10:05:25 PM)
i personally think that you are wrong. i am a slave. And i did not take direction, i wanted so badly in my heart to serve and take direction, there was just this thing inside of me fighting because every other time i served, there was NO love involved, and Her kind of love scared me, Her love was enduring, but what i had known of love was so messed up. i had to completely change what my idea of love was. Now i know what love is, and it has been withdrawn from Her, and i know i have love for Her, because my heart and soul ache.

badlilthang -> RE: Unruely slave (4/11/2009 3:59:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: submissivexheart ok.. in my eyes... a sub/slave.... shouldnt have problems following directions... if one is truly subsmissive or a slave..... all they want to do is serve..... *are you for real? even a "twue" slave or submissive can have problems following directions - you have obviously not read the thread very well. There are many out there - aching to do the right thing - but has conditions that will prevent them from being flawless....ADD - ADHD - Autistic tendancies - Bipolar....i could mention many more. It is often not that they do not wish to serve or obey - they simply get sidetracked one way or another. It is sad to see that some of the Doms would just kick them to the curb...but on the other side - maybe that is best for both parts, when the understanding of the mind is barely - or not - present....*

DesFIP -> RE: Unruely slave (4/11/2009 2:41:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: submissivexheart ok.. in my eyes... a sub/slave.... shouldnt have problems following directions... if one is truly subsmissive or a slave..... all they want to do is serve..... You're joking. Either that or seriously uneducated. I'm submissive but not service oriented. And my personal relationship orientation doesn't matter at all when it comes to panic attacks and generalized anxiety disorder. You think I'm going to stop hyperventilating because he orders it? I suppose you think someone with cancer who didn't magically get well when ordered to also isn't a twue slave? Sheesh!

MasterDarkSadist -> RE: Unruely slave (4/11/2009 4:49:00 PM)
She's no slave girl, or you aren't making the point that she is subservient to you and that she is expected to follow your commands. For me, this would be a "do or get the hell out" situation. I always try to correct the problem, but if the problem doesn't get resolved, I have a serious talk that usually goes something like this: "I expect you to behave in a manner that is respectul, dutiful, and brings honor to this house. You are not currently doing that, and as such you have 2 options. Shape up, or get out."

badlilthang -> RE: Unruely slave (4/11/2009 5:23:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterDarkSadist She's no slave girl, or you aren't making the point that she is subservient to you and that she is expected to follow your commands. For me, this would be a "do or get the hell out" situation. I always try to correct the problem, but if the problem doesn't get resolved, I have a serious talk that usually goes something like this: "I expect you to behave in a manner that is respectul, dutiful, and brings honor to this house. You are not currently doing that, and as such you have 2 options. Shape up, or get out." amazing...

catize -> RE: Unruely slave (4/12/2009 8:02:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: submissivexheart ok.. in my eyes... a sub/slave.... shouldnt have problems following directions... if one is truly subsmissive or a slave..... all they want to do is serve..... UHHHHH…….there are times that due to a chronic medical condition I have right sided weakness; there are times I can’t even beat an egg with my right hand. So, guess I’ll have to turn in my ‘submissive card’ if my dominant tells me I must only use my right hand to accomplish tasks; or tells me to stand on my right foot for 15 minutes???

MasterDarkSadist -> RE: Unruely slave (4/12/2009 3:00:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: badlilthang quote: ORIGINAL: MasterDarkSadist She's no slave girl, or you aren't making the point that she is subservient to you and that she is expected to follow your commands. For me, this would be a "do or get the hell out" situation. I always try to correct the problem, but if the problem doesn't get resolved, I have a serious talk that usually goes something like this: "I expect you to behave in a manner that is respectul, dutiful, and brings honor to this house. You are not currently doing that, and as such you have 2 options. Shape up, or get out." amazing... If you disagree, why not articulate why. Instead of posting a vague and erronious remark that has no meaning what-so-ever except to convey your disagreement. It is simple. She is not following commands, which means that she does not respect him, and their power dynamic is broken. I am not going to live a vanilla life, so therefore if my power dynamic is broken, and I cannot resolve it, then we split ways. Sure, I said it in stronger terms, but that's basically what should happen here. Either she gets the point that I won't tolerate it, and changes. Or I don't tolerate it, and we split ways. Hell, I was even kind enough to give a warning. (this is assuming, of course, that there aren't any particularly valid reasons for the trouble in the first place. There is a girl who I am talking to that just had surgery. I would not expect her to be able to serve in any capacity at the moment, and I have actually confined her to her bed, except for food, bodily functions, and proper hygiene). You probably think I am a pompous ass who cares not for my girl. You are wrong, on so many levels that I cannot begin to even start to think about wanting to express them. The simple fact is this. Either she obeys or not. If not, then HE is responsible for correcting that, and if he cannot, then he has to accept a vanilla relationship (which is probably what she wants), or move on. I don't do vanilla, so I would be moving on. FURTHERMORE Can we please stop taking a post regarding a personal situation (such as how I would deal with my personal situation), and applying it to your own, or every possible situation in the universe. The point of posting your opinion, is that it is valid about your situation. Your situation might be close to someone else's, and might assist them. If it DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU, then disregard and move on. You don't have to make a point just to demolish mine, just because it does not fit your unique situation. For example; The lady with right side weakness, yes, it would be incredibly stupid for me to order you to beat an egg with your right hand and stand on your right leg, and then when you could not accomplish this task, to disown you. That would be a moronic act. However, you applied my GENERAL statement to your own very specialized situation with the intent of showing that my entire point was grievously incorrect. Sorry my dear, while I feel for you and wish you the best of luck, I cannot, with enough words, go through the entire book of diseases and make a case by case analysis of what I would do to overcome each and every condition that is in there. And, I thank you for inspiring me to post an entirely new thread on just this topic.

masterlink65 -> RE: Unruely slave (4/12/2009 9:13:48 PM)
sounds like it needs to be re-trained

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